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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,19,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:14 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It was mentioned in books and other sources that ships with Warp drive CAN NOT be in warp around gravational sources. One book had the TOS Enterprise engage warp as a last resort inside a planet atmosphere and the ship almost got stuck in a Wormhole (Wormhole as in the Star Trek The Motion Picture slow motion warp imbalance wormhole). (The book was Prime Directive... it was a very large novel, mostly red cover)<br /><br />However, if a starship in warp rammed another object, what would the result be?<br /><br />In warp:<br />A) Starship trys to ram a planet.<br />B) Starship trys to ram a station.<br />C) Starship trys to ram another starship (think borg cube, distracted by a converstaion of assimilation, and so on).<br />D) Starship trys to ram planet killer (or any ship with solid neutronium hull).<br /><br />Or, ship is facing another ship (or anything) and engages warp drive right then (ramming that way).<br /><br />Following from the above... could a Cardassian ship ram DS9 at warp and destroy it? Could a Galaxy class starship saucer seperate and send the engineering section into a warp powered suicide?<br /><br />One last thing. When a ship engages warp there is an instant when the ship is in a faster verion of impulse but still not FTL. (see Encounter at Farpoint part 1 for a good example... when the Enterprise makes a 180 degree arc in front of the Q energy wall). So, why can't a starship use this faster impulse to make emergency manuvers? (swing around behind the enemy ship with warp drive cut in, keep ship from going FTL, drop warp when ship is in position) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,20,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:02 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was mentioned in books and other sources that ships with Warp drive CAN NOT be in warp around gravational sources. One book had the TOS Enterprise engage warp as a last resort inside a planet atmosphere and the ship almost got stuck in a wormhole</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except that ST:IV showed the BOP warp out of the atmosphere. I wrote that off as artistic license though, but i interpret the severe situation in 'Prime Directive' to have been caused by not the act of warp in gravity, but warp in a gravity well combined with the fact that several tactical nuke impacted Enterprises warp nacelles as it was going to warp, causing the wormhole. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A) Starship trys to ram a planet.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Easy. The starship would blow up and make a rather unfortunate crater in the planet. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">B) Starship trys to ram a station.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The starship and the station would blow up. But if the station was bigger than the ship and well shielded, maybe it would be like ramming a ships shields with a shuttle.. you just blow yourselves up. BTW, even if this was a good technique, long range sensors have always been shown to work FTL, so theyd have lead time of an object heading at them at warp. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">C) Starship trys to ram another starship (think borg cube, distracted by a converstaion of assimilation, and so on).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This ones interesting, because i think it might be enough to overwhelm the borg shields.. but not much.. maybe make a hole the size of the ones they made in Q-Who when their weapons still worked against them. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">D) Starship trys to ram planet killer (or any ship with solid neutronium hull).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This ones easy too. Dead starship, undamaged neutronium. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">could a Cardassian ship ram DS9 at warp and destroy it</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes. But like i said, theyd see it coming a long way off. Probably shields would protect against the collision just like if the ship wasnt FTL. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could a Galaxy class starship saucer seperate and send the engineering section into a warp powered suicide?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dont see why not. Thatd be a good way to strand yourself somewhere though. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So, why can't a starship use this faster impulse to make emergency manuvers?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Um.. it can. They do it all the time. Its called maneuvering at high impulse. Ever seen the Defiant in action? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>EdipisReks</b> <br /><small>Member # 510</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,20,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:04 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> i'd say ya wrapped that one up pretty well, <b>CaptainMike</b> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> .<br /><br />--jacob <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,21,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> CaptainMike, I'm not so sure about these answers of yours. <br /><br />First, the potential energy of an object traveling at high impulse in normal space is already very high. I'm not going to do the math, but I think it might be high enough to overwhelm shielding. USS Odyssey was destroyed by a collision (but I'm not sure her shields were up). <br /><br />Second, can we treat collisions between objects in subspace and objects in normal space the same as collisions between two objects in normal space? I've tried to get an answer to this before but I've never really been convinced. <br /><br />Third, even if we discount the possible effects of objects in normal space interacting with those in subspace, a vehicle travelling at high multiples of light-speed hitting a stationary object would be extremely violent, much more than a big rock hitting the earth at speeds of several kilometers per second. Simple light speed is 300,000 km per second and even a low cruising speed of warp 6 (old scale) is 65 million km per second. We haven't seen anything like that in Trek, since combat seems to take place at sublight speeds, for some reason. But something hitting at high warp is likely more damaging than anything we've seen in Trek. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>CaptainMike</b> <br /><small>Member # 709</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,21,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:07 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> the question is, when something is at warp, is it really 'here' or is part of it in subspace. if thats the case, that since your ship isnt entirely in this continuum because space is twisted around it, would it actually cause less damage? or if thats not the case, would the warp field lessen any impact, or energy transfer, since it is inhibitive to normal existence? or, since a warp field lowers the mass of an object, would it actually cause the collision to not damage the realspace recipient? (since getting hit by something with negligible mass might not affect you, since you only recieve the energy of its shields on yours, as opposed to energy and a matter collision) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,22,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:38 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Exactly, Captain, that's what I've been trying to find out. People always raise the example of deflectors, saying that objects in normal space have to be swept away to avoid damaging a ship traveling at warp. Also, do bussards operate when the ship is at warp to scoop up gas from normal space?<br /><br />Edit: I just posted this question at Trek BBS. Rick Sternbach's been hanging out over there, so maybe he'll answer.<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 12, 2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Masao ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Timo</b> <br /><small>Member # 245</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,23,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:42 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Starting from the other end, we already know the dramatic limitations on the subject.<br /><br />You probably cannot destroy a Borg cube by ramming, or else the cube in "BoBW" would have lost the battle of Wolf 359. Then again, attempting a ramming isn't completely hopeless, or Riker wouldn't have suggested it in the same episode. (If the simply wanted to go out in a blaze of glory defending Earth, he should have tried to raid the cube with boarding parties if ramming really was completely hopeless!)<br /><br />You probably cannot cause major damage to a planet by warp-ramming it, either, or we would hear more of such a mode of combat.<br /><br />And you probably can ram a shielded ship, at least on impulse, or else the "Sacrifice of Angels" and "What We Leave Behind" battles would make no sense.<br /><br />Those are the dramatic constraints on ramming. How the treknology copes with them is another issue.<br /><br />Timo Saloniemi <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,4,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:23 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Here's a question: what's the volume of antimatter that a starship carries as fuel?<br /><br />We know that the Cardassian missile Dreadnought was capable of causing (at least) devastating damage to a planet with its 2000 kg warhead (1000 kg antimatter).<br /><br />I agree, though, that the interaction between a ship at warp and a matter in normal space is the key point. Until we know that, there's no definite answer.<br /><br />I happen to think that a vessel remains in "normal" space even when it's at warp, but the subspace aspect of warp drive is simply the expanding and contracting of space around the ship to propel it at FTL speeds.<br /><br />Therefore, the power of the deflector is the key -- how much mass can it handle before it's overwhelmed? Apparently it can easily handle an atmosphere, but probably not large asteroids -- therefore the reason why ships don't warp through an asteroid field.<br /><br />And hitting a planet -- well, there's no way a deflector can handle that much mass, and so a starship could either crash into the planet.... or maybe be deflected around it.<br /><br />If a deflector can handle masses that are as big as the ship itself, then perhaps the deflector can protect the ship while it interacts with the planetary mass, and push the SHIP instead of the planet. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,12,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:39 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> A soloton wave (sorry if I called that something entirely wrong) was a threat to a planet... There was a TNG episode which invoved a ship shoved into warp drive with an energy wave... this wave got out of control...<br /><br />The wave was traveling at warp speed... a Enstein impossibility (nothing can reach speed of light), so the wave must have been involved with subspace...<br /><br />The wave, if it hit a planet, would not only destroy the planet, but also carry half of it into warp speed. The wave would be mostly uneffected (by gravity, so on, but then again a good point is made about the Prime Directive Wormhole).<br />If the wave could destroy a planet then why is a starship different?<br /><br />The wormhole in ST TMP was created by an unbalanced warp drive. An asteroid was present in the wormhole. No asteroids travel at FTL... so it must have came near the Enterprise and was sucked into the flightpath (ahead of the ship... imagine the Enterprise in a straw... the straw representing the wormhole... some lucky asteroid flew into one side... traveled along... perhaps...) If that theory I just presented proves true (in parenthesis) then could a ship with an unbalanced warp drive be piloted by computer and ram a planet? May produce a nice size hole... through the entire planet...<br /><br />If gravity has no effect on Warp Drive, then why did the Enterprise and Borg ship in "BoBW" drop to warp around... Saturn? (I can't remember which planet specifically, but it was way out there in the solar system plane). If both ships can warp right up to Earth, then why didn't they do this?<br />(note: Another book, non-star trek related has a possible solution. Sentury satelights were placed around Jupiter orbit to prevent any ships traveling faster than light to get any closer than Jupiter when approaching Earth. That way, there is a last hope in an outright war... However, if a satelight can do this in Star Trek, then why can't one starship prevent another from warping?)<br /><br />One last thing. Assuming Warp takes a ship from normal space into a subspace like enviroment... then could a ship ram another ship (warp drive, in back, undamaged) and then go to warp? The ship going to warp would phase into subspace while the ship that is being rammed isn't having the entire mass pushed into subspace... would this slice that enemy ship in two (or even more) pieces? The ship going to warp has a warp field around it... and I doubt that field will cover the enemy ship entirely... so I don't see why a part of the enemy ship wouldn't either disapear, or suddenly go FTL with the adjoining parts not only being in the way but also still attached...<br /><br />Edit: Gah, brain is like swiss cheese today... in comment to deflector sheilds above: In general I am thinking of ships being used as weapons (kamakazi, in essence). So, if the deflectors are a problem (and they may be) then the ship would turn them off seconds before ramming... however if deflectors provide some advantage... they are turned on... Still, I wonder how that works when a ship is in warp... I know starships avoid things such as nebula and asteroid fields when at warp. In general, they have a nice rule... don't push your luck... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /><br /> <br /> <small>[ March 13, 2002, 12:46: Message edited by: Golden Tiger ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,13,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:06 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If gravity has no effect on Warp Drive, then why did the Enterprise and Borg ship in "BoBW" drop to warp around... Saturn? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Around almost all of them, and the answer is, essentially, because it looked really cool and ominous. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,13,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:16 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Sol System:<br /><strong> essentially, because it looked really cool and ominous.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was better than just warping to earth theactracally... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>J</b> <br /><small>Member # 608</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,13,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Golden Tiger:<br /><strong>If the wave could destroy a planet then why is a starship different?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm unable to read all your post, but I skimmed this part...<br /><br />My Answer:<br />The Starship uses some type of buffer field behind it to bounce off the wave. If the buffer field would fail then it would also destroy the ship. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,15,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:10 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think he meant that the wave was going to cause a great deal of damage to the planet it was going to strike, and wasn't addressing the mechanics of how a ship might ride it. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,15,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:33 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Because of that buffer field... a enemy ship could survive a soloton wave... however a planet is a bit to large for such an effect and it would be interesting, although damaging, to see a planet going at warp speed... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Chris StarShade</b> <br /><small>Member # 786</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,6,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In reality, if there's anything to subspace at all, then the ship isn't really there when it rams you...<br /><br />It is like being punched by a ghost, scares the hell out of you, but goes right through you. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,6,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:40 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The wave was traveling at warp speed... a Enstein impossibility (nothing can reach speed of light), so the wave must have been involved with subspace...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not entirely true. All EM radiaton travels with the speed of light (light IS EM radiaton). It would be impossible (I think, but there are vague theories on FTL gravitons) if the wave went FTL.. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,7,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:56 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't remember much from "New Ground," but I'm pretty sure that the wave was accelerating FTL. IIRC, the Enterprise had to go fast to get around it, or something like that. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,7,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:57 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Somehow, I don't think you can as per Kira "Go To Warp in a Solar System" - we'll we've seen it done most of the Movies, and most episodes of TNG where the Ent leaves a planet and warps off! I believe the difference might be Warping in a solar system going towards the star - i.e. warping into the system... (you can more and more debris - like the Asteroid belt etc.) Also, why Kira said you 'can't go to warp in a solar system' - at the time they were heading towards Bajor's sun. And well, we usually see ships have to drop to impulse when they arrive in a System - but they can warp OUT of a system easily enough.<br /><br />Andrew <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,12,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:29 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> That's what I figured, that warping in the "outer" system -- from Earth-orbit on out -- it's fairly safe. But the inner system has more junk in it, plus the massive gravitational pull of the star. Plus, the Defiant was heading directly towards the star in that ep, to catch the Runabout. <br /><br />Of course, in the Sol System you've got the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter -- that's got to be a major navigational hazard. Probably the ships take a route "around" the field... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,14,58,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:58 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If your ship was ramming another ship and went to warp... your warp field would not cover the entire enemy ship... would you slice that enemy ship in two when you turn part of it into a 'Ghost' as the poster in one of the messages above called it?<br /><br />A ship normally warps out of a solar system, but never into one... Maybe this says something...<br />Gravity in a solar system prevents warp ins. If a ship warps into a solar system then they can't stop and tend to run into the local sun because of this (or, perhaps, they slingshot around it... still nasty)<br />A ship can warp out because it is warping away from the gravity well... it isn't heading toward the center of gravity... <br /><br />Could that idea hold any water?<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 14, 2002, 15:02: Message edited by: Golden Tiger ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,19,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't think you could cut a ship in two w/ a warp field. A field doesn't have a line that you cross to be in it or out of it. The field would be strongest around the ship and gradually get weaker on the way out. Just like, if you move a metal object near a magnet, you can feel a light tug at first that gets stronger as you get closer. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,21,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:13 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Any techie types/physicists here? How does the amount of energy released by a single photon torpedo (previously calculated by someone, I'm sure) compare to that of a starship hitting an object at full impulse (0.25 c) and at light speed? Let's say the ship weighs a million tons. (I don't remember by physics equations, sorry) Then, if we can estimate how many torpedo hits a ship can absorb before its shields collapse, we might be able to say what would happen if a ship hits a shield ship. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The_Tom</b> <br /><small>Member # 38</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,22,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Kinetic energy of a Galaxy-class starship at full impulse:</b><br /><br />E<sub>k</sub> = 1/2 * m * v<sup>2</sup><br /><br />m = 4.5 * 10<sup>9</sup> kg<br /><br />v = 0.25 c = 0.25 (3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s) = 7.5 * 10<sup>7</sup> m/s<br /><br />E<sub>k</sub> = 1/2 * 4.5 * 10<sup>9</sup> * (7.5 * 10<sup>7</sup>)<sup>2</sup> = <b>1.266 * 10<sup>25</sup> J</b><br />(equivalent to 3.03 * 10<sup>9</sup> megatons of TNT)<br /><br /><hr><br /><br /><b>Energy released by the annihilation of 1.5 kg of matter and 1.5 kg of antimatter:</b><br /><br />E = m * c<sup>2</sup><br /><br />m = 1.5 + 1.5 = 3 kg <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />c = 3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s<br /><br />E = 3 kg * (3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s)<sup>2</sup> = <b>2.7 * 10<sup>17</sup> J</b><br />(equivalent to 64.5 megatons of TNT)<br /><br /><hr><br /><br />In other words, the Galaxy smacking something is the same, in raw energy terms, as 47 million photon torpedoes. (That number again!).<br /><br />However, it would be a bit presumptious to assume that more Joules = better able to break through a shield. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Golden Tiger</b> <br /><small>Member # 586</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,15,12,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 15, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:25 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The_Tom:<br /><strong>In other words, the Galaxy smacking something is the same, in raw energy terms, as 47 million photon torpedoes. (That number again!).<br /></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And in the end, it is further proven that not only have the creators of each of the Star Trek series though about questions such as this but also that they choose to define their own answers (involving the number 47 in a tremendous amount of them). <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Guardian 2000</b> <br /><small>Member # 743</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,25,4,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 25, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:41 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Excellent work! <br /><br />But, here are some other possibilities. Take a peek and let me know what you think:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The_Tom:<br /><strong><b>Kinetic energy of a Galaxy-class starship at full impulse:</b><br /><br />E<sub>k</sub> = 1/2 * m * v<sup>2</sup><br /><br />m = 4.5 * 10<sup>9</sup> kg<br /><br />v = 0.25 c = 0.25 (3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s) = 7.5 * 10<sup>7</sup> m/s<br /><br />E<sub>k</sub> = 1/2 * 4.5 * 10<sup>9</sup> * (7.5 * 10<sup>7</sup>)<sup>2</sup> = <b>1.266 * 10<sup>25</sup> J</b><br />(equivalent to 3.03 * 10<sup>9</sup> megatons of TNT)<br /><hr><br /></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, in general, but we do not know the full effect of the spacetime driver coils on the mass of the starship. It has been postulated elsewhere that the coils perform an artificial mass reduction effect (AMRE) on the entire ship, not merely an extra shove on the impulse exhaust products. <br /><br />One person's calculation runs as follows:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><br />While I was on holiday I got a bit bored one afternoon and decided to <br />work out how strong the AMRE must be for a GCS<br /><br />Assume 1 TW impulse engine power (will actually be less)<br />Assume 10km/s^2 impulse acceleration (will actually be more)<br />Assume 4.5 million ton mass<br /><br />F = ma<br />W = Fd<br />W = mad<br />P = W/t<br />P = mad/t<br />P = 4.5e9 * 1e4 * 5e3 / 1<br />P = 2.25e17 W<br /><br />GCS only produces 1e12 W<br />AMRE must reduce mass to 1e12/2.25e17 of original = 1/2.25e5 = 2e4 kg<br /><br />Conclusion :<br />AMRE must reduce mass to 20000 kg at most. (99.999555...% AMRE)<br />If acceleration is greater, mass must be less and AMRE must be greater<br />If engine power is less mass must be less so AMRE must be greater.<br /><br />If Riker is wrong, however, AMRE will be less. According to Elim the TM<br />says on P77 that each IRC (Impulse Reaction Chamber) is throttleable<br />from 1e8 to 1e11 MW.<br /><br />(the 1 TW figure is from Riker in one of the TNG eps. He says that a TW<br />radio source is more power than the ship can generate.<br />The 10km/s^2 figure is from the TM where is says that an ACS can<br />accelerate at that rate and it's the slowest.<br />The 4.5mil ton figure is from the TM.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Though the one terawatt figure for entire starship energy output from "The Dauphin" is quite readily contradicted elsewhere, most notably in Voyager, the "10<sup>8</sup> to 10<sup>11</sup> megawatts" figure from the Tech Manual is possible.<br /><br />Granted, they could simply turn off the driver coils as they approached the target, but I would assume (???) that this would slow the vessel considerably. Of course, since a starship isn't restricted to .25c, they could always just go faster and then turn it off (for a final velocity in the range of .25c), but without a stationary target I'd think the relativistic effects would make aim difficult.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong><br /><b>Energy released by the annihilation of 1.5 kg of matter and 1.5 kg of antimatter:</b><br /><br />E = m * c<sup>2</sup><br /><br />m = 1.5 + 1.5 = 3 kg <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /><br />c = 3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s<br /><br />E = 3 kg * (3.00 * 10<sup>8</sup> m/s)<sup>2</sup> = <b>2.7 * 10<sup>17</sup> J</b><br />(equivalent to 64.5 megatons of TNT)<br /><br /><hr><br /><br />In other words, the Galaxy smacking something is the same, in raw energy terms, as 47 million photon torpedoes. (That number again!).<br /><br />However, it would be a bit presumptious to assume that more Joules = better able to break through a shield.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, given that the photon torpedoes are generally portrayed to be more powerful than phasers, rendering someone's butt soundly whooped with the raw energy output, 64.5 megatons seems a little low. Granted, that is the correct figure given 1.5 kg of antimatter and a 100% efficient detonation, but we've seen phasers, disruptors, and photon torpedoes all deliver more energy than that . . . I'm thinking of "The Die is Cast"[DS9] here, primarily.<br /><br />Just some thoughts . . . <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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