posted
It was mentioned in books and other sources that ships with Warp drive CAN NOT be in warp around gravational sources. One book had the TOS Enterprise engage warp as a last resort inside a planet atmosphere and the ship almost got stuck in a Wormhole (Wormhole as in the Star Trek The Motion Picture slow motion warp imbalance wormhole). (The book was Prime Directive... it was a very large novel, mostly red cover)
However, if a starship in warp rammed another object, what would the result be?
In warp: A) Starship trys to ram a planet. B) Starship trys to ram a station. C) Starship trys to ram another starship (think borg cube, distracted by a converstaion of assimilation, and so on). D) Starship trys to ram planet killer (or any ship with solid neutronium hull).
Or, ship is facing another ship (or anything) and engages warp drive right then (ramming that way).
Following from the above... could a Cardassian ship ram DS9 at warp and destroy it? Could a Galaxy class starship saucer seperate and send the engineering section into a warp powered suicide?
One last thing. When a ship engages warp there is an instant when the ship is in a faster verion of impulse but still not FTL. (see Encounter at Farpoint part 1 for a good example... when the Enterprise makes a 180 degree arc in front of the Q energy wall). So, why can't a starship use this faster impulse to make emergency manuvers? (swing around behind the enemy ship with warp drive cut in, keep ship from going FTL, drop warp when ship is in position)
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
quote:It was mentioned in books and other sources that ships with Warp drive CAN NOT be in warp around gravational sources. One book had the TOS Enterprise engage warp as a last resort inside a planet atmosphere and the ship almost got stuck in a wormhole
Except that ST:IV showed the BOP warp out of the atmosphere. I wrote that off as artistic license though, but i interpret the severe situation in 'Prime Directive' to have been caused by not the act of warp in gravity, but warp in a gravity well combined with the fact that several tactical nuke impacted Enterprises warp nacelles as it was going to warp, causing the wormhole.
quote:A) Starship trys to ram a planet.
Easy. The starship would blow up and make a rather unfortunate crater in the planet.
quote:B) Starship trys to ram a station.
The starship and the station would blow up. But if the station was bigger than the ship and well shielded, maybe it would be like ramming a ships shields with a shuttle.. you just blow yourselves up. BTW, even if this was a good technique, long range sensors have always been shown to work FTL, so theyd have lead time of an object heading at them at warp.
quote:C) Starship trys to ram another starship (think borg cube, distracted by a converstaion of assimilation, and so on).
This ones interesting, because i think it might be enough to overwhelm the borg shields.. but not much.. maybe make a hole the size of the ones they made in Q-Who when their weapons still worked against them.
quote:D) Starship trys to ram planet killer (or any ship with solid neutronium hull).
This ones easy too. Dead starship, undamaged neutronium.
quote:could a Cardassian ship ram DS9 at warp and destroy it
Yes. But like i said, theyd see it coming a long way off. Probably shields would protect against the collision just like if the ship wasnt FTL.
quote:Could a Galaxy class starship saucer seperate and send the engineering section into a warp powered suicide?
Dont see why not. Thatd be a good way to strand yourself somewhere though.
quote:So, why can't a starship use this faster impulse to make emergency manuvers?
Um.. it can. They do it all the time. Its called maneuvering at high impulse. Ever seen the Defiant in action?
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EdipisReks
Ex-Member
posted
i'd say ya wrapped that one up pretty well, CaptainMike .
posted
CaptainMike, I'm not so sure about these answers of yours.
First, the potential energy of an object traveling at high impulse in normal space is already very high. I'm not going to do the math, but I think it might be high enough to overwhelm shielding. USS Odyssey was destroyed by a collision (but I'm not sure her shields were up).
Second, can we treat collisions between objects in subspace and objects in normal space the same as collisions between two objects in normal space? I've tried to get an answer to this before but I've never really been convinced.
Third, even if we discount the possible effects of objects in normal space interacting with those in subspace, a vehicle travelling at high multiples of light-speed hitting a stationary object would be extremely violent, much more than a big rock hitting the earth at speeds of several kilometers per second. Simple light speed is 300,000 km per second and even a low cruising speed of warp 6 (old scale) is 65 million km per second. We haven't seen anything like that in Trek, since combat seems to take place at sublight speeds, for some reason. But something hitting at high warp is likely more damaging than anything we've seen in Trek.
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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the question is, when something is at warp, is it really 'here' or is part of it in subspace. if thats the case, that since your ship isnt entirely in this continuum because space is twisted around it, would it actually cause less damage? or if thats not the case, would the warp field lessen any impact, or energy transfer, since it is inhibitive to normal existence? or, since a warp field lowers the mass of an object, would it actually cause the collision to not damage the realspace recipient? (since getting hit by something with negligible mass might not affect you, since you only recieve the energy of its shields on yours, as opposed to energy and a matter collision)
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posted
Exactly, Captain, that's what I've been trying to find out. People always raise the example of deflectors, saying that objects in normal space have to be swept away to avoid damaging a ship traveling at warp. Also, do bussards operate when the ship is at warp to scoop up gas from normal space?
Edit: I just posted this question at Trek BBS. Rick Sternbach's been hanging out over there, so maybe he'll answer.
[ March 12, 2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Masao ]
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Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Starting from the other end, we already know the dramatic limitations on the subject.
You probably cannot destroy a Borg cube by ramming, or else the cube in "BoBW" would have lost the battle of Wolf 359. Then again, attempting a ramming isn't completely hopeless, or Riker wouldn't have suggested it in the same episode. (If the simply wanted to go out in a blaze of glory defending Earth, he should have tried to raid the cube with boarding parties if ramming really was completely hopeless!)
You probably cannot cause major damage to a planet by warp-ramming it, either, or we would hear more of such a mode of combat.
And you probably can ram a shielded ship, at least on impulse, or else the "Sacrifice of Angels" and "What We Leave Behind" battles would make no sense.
Those are the dramatic constraints on ramming. How the treknology copes with them is another issue.
posted
Here's a question: what's the volume of antimatter that a starship carries as fuel?
We know that the Cardassian missile Dreadnought was capable of causing (at least) devastating damage to a planet with its 2000 kg warhead (1000 kg antimatter).
I agree, though, that the interaction between a ship at warp and a matter in normal space is the key point. Until we know that, there's no definite answer.
I happen to think that a vessel remains in "normal" space even when it's at warp, but the subspace aspect of warp drive is simply the expanding and contracting of space around the ship to propel it at FTL speeds.
Therefore, the power of the deflector is the key -- how much mass can it handle before it's overwhelmed? Apparently it can easily handle an atmosphere, but probably not large asteroids -- therefore the reason why ships don't warp through an asteroid field.
And hitting a planet -- well, there's no way a deflector can handle that much mass, and so a starship could either crash into the planet.... or maybe be deflected around it.
If a deflector can handle masses that are as big as the ship itself, then perhaps the deflector can protect the ship while it interacts with the planetary mass, and push the SHIP instead of the planet.
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Golden Tiger
Ex-Member
posted
A soloton wave (sorry if I called that something entirely wrong) was a threat to a planet... There was a TNG episode which invoved a ship shoved into warp drive with an energy wave... this wave got out of control...
The wave was traveling at warp speed... a Enstein impossibility (nothing can reach speed of light), so the wave must have been involved with subspace...
The wave, if it hit a planet, would not only destroy the planet, but also carry half of it into warp speed. The wave would be mostly uneffected (by gravity, so on, but then again a good point is made about the Prime Directive Wormhole). If the wave could destroy a planet then why is a starship different?
The wormhole in ST TMP was created by an unbalanced warp drive. An asteroid was present in the wormhole. No asteroids travel at FTL... so it must have came near the Enterprise and was sucked into the flightpath (ahead of the ship... imagine the Enterprise in a straw... the straw representing the wormhole... some lucky asteroid flew into one side... traveled along... perhaps...) If that theory I just presented proves true (in parenthesis) then could a ship with an unbalanced warp drive be piloted by computer and ram a planet? May produce a nice size hole... through the entire planet...
If gravity has no effect on Warp Drive, then why did the Enterprise and Borg ship in "BoBW" drop to warp around... Saturn? (I can't remember which planet specifically, but it was way out there in the solar system plane). If both ships can warp right up to Earth, then why didn't they do this? (note: Another book, non-star trek related has a possible solution. Sentury satelights were placed around Jupiter orbit to prevent any ships traveling faster than light to get any closer than Jupiter when approaching Earth. That way, there is a last hope in an outright war... However, if a satelight can do this in Star Trek, then why can't one starship prevent another from warping?)
One last thing. Assuming Warp takes a ship from normal space into a subspace like enviroment... then could a ship ram another ship (warp drive, in back, undamaged) and then go to warp? The ship going to warp would phase into subspace while the ship that is being rammed isn't having the entire mass pushed into subspace... would this slice that enemy ship in two (or even more) pieces? The ship going to warp has a warp field around it... and I doubt that field will cover the enemy ship entirely... so I don't see why a part of the enemy ship wouldn't either disapear, or suddenly go FTL with the adjoining parts not only being in the way but also still attached...
Edit: Gah, brain is like swiss cheese today... in comment to deflector sheilds above: In general I am thinking of ships being used as weapons (kamakazi, in essence). So, if the deflectors are a problem (and they may be) then the ship would turn them off seconds before ramming... however if deflectors provide some advantage... they are turned on... Still, I wonder how that works when a ship is in warp... I know starships avoid things such as nebula and asteroid fields when at warp. In general, they have a nice rule... don't push your luck...
[ March 13, 2002, 12:46: Message edited by: Golden Tiger ]
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quote:Originally posted by Golden Tiger: If the wave could destroy a planet then why is a starship different?
I'm unable to read all your post, but I skimmed this part...
My Answer: The Starship uses some type of buffer field behind it to bounce off the wave. If the buffer field would fail then it would also destroy the ship.
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posted
I think he meant that the wave was going to cause a great deal of damage to the planet it was going to strike, and wasn't addressing the mechanics of how a ship might ride it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Golden Tiger
Ex-Member
posted
Because of that buffer field... a enemy ship could survive a soloton wave... however a planet is a bit to large for such an effect and it would be interesting, although damaging, to see a planet going at warp speed...
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Chris StarShade
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posted
In reality, if there's anything to subspace at all, then the ship isn't really there when it rams you...
It is like being punched by a ghost, scares the hell out of you, but goes right through you.
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