Here, the Hideki appears to fit David Stipes' 152m size. On the other hand, we still don't know where the DS9TM's 85.78m come from.
The Hideki first appeared in "Profit and Loss" (allegedly as a slightly different model) and was used again in "Tribunal", and then from "A Call to Arms" onward. It appeared as a much smaller ship in "Tacking into the Wind", but we may consider that something other than Hideki. Anybody have screencaps from the first two episodes or A Call to Arms? The former would really help.
Boris
[ March 23, 2002, 05:46: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
From what I remember, the Hideki as it appeared in "Tribunal" was about the same size as the runabout it was pursuing. Which is a long way from the 152 meter length that some people suggest.
Of course, didn't the Hideki model serve as a shuttle-sized ship in "Tacking into the Wind" as well?
I think the best potential comparison would be the shot in "Call to Arms" when a trio of Hidekis make a close strafing run against Ops, and one actually rams the shield bubble. We can get at least a reasonable size there.
The other shot would be THIS ONE which is also from Ship-o-rama. There are several Hidekis that are very close to the central Galor -- and each appears to be no longer than the main section (where the nacelle blades are). By my estimation, that'd make them 25% the length of a full Galor.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I thought that last appearance was only a 'shuttle', sharing some similarity with the Hideki.
We have another comparison; the Runabout and Hideki from 'Tribunal' (was it 'Tribunal'?). Gul Evek's ship looked smaller than 152m. Maybe that was Sternbach's reference for the size.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Something more for you:
I created 10 screenshots , the first five are from 'Call to Arms', the last five are from SoA.
[ March 23, 2002, 16:16: Message edited by: Cpt. Kyle Amasov ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Thanks! Here are my measurements:
H0: Between 90 and 200m long (given a 366m Galor), or 120 and 260m (given a 481m Galor). These are upper and lower limits, based on measurements of a Hideki that is above a Galor and another that is below. It seems the 152m VFX size was maintained here.
H4: both Hidekis are huge! Assuming a 1609m DS9 that the Effects used, two of the Hidekis scale out to 340/360m, respectively. Assuming a 1097m DS9 as designed, we're looking at 230m and 250m.
H2: This Hideki is 85m long assuming a 1609m DS9, otherwise it's 58m long.
H3: Here, we have an upper limit of about 260m, assuming a 1609m DS9, or 180m assuming a 1097m DS9.
H9: The Hideki is less than 90m long (assuming a 366m Galor), or less than 115m (assuming a 481m Galor). These are upper limits.
Using the VFX sizes for the Galor and DS9, and visually estimating the correct values between the upper and the lower limits, the average comes out to roughly 160m.
Using the design sizes for Galor and DS9, we obtain about 150m (I guess scaling up the Galor is somewhat compensated by scaling down DS9). I discarded H3 in both calculations because I wasn't sure how close the Hideki is to the pylon.
It appears that the Visual Effects have essentially done what David Stipes was telling us about -- they used a 152m baseline size while changing the actual relationships to satisfy story points.
I've examined the Hideki and the only structural detail is the height of that bridge window with respect to the base of the bridge, which I assume to be one deck. A 152m size happens to put the top edge of the window at 1.6m +/- 0.1 above the base of the circle, which seems about right, maybe a tad too low.
[ March 23, 2002, 19:45: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wasn't there also an Hideki docked at an upper pylon in "Profit and Loss" - season 2? The episode with Natima Lang - Quark's love.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't know if it will help, but I found this size comparison picture - it appears to be from the fact files?
I've always wondered what the design lineage is between the Jemmie fighter and the Jemmie warship... and looking at the pictures, I think the 'swept back nacelles' on the fighter - matches the ships if you turn them around... maybe they had them going backwards on DS9/didn't like the first way they looked so turned them around?? It makes more sense - it sorta copies the fighters more - swept back nacelles, a blunt nose, 'pincers' at the back.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
The comparison chart is obviously derived from the DS9TM, although the Hideki here has been scaled up to about 100m. It maintains, however, the DS9TM relationship with the Jem'Hadar bug, which has also been scaled up. This could be due to an error, or a realization that 86m is a tad too small.
I'd like to see that Hideki from "Profit and Loss".
[ March 24, 2002, 07:02: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The Hideki from "Profit and Loss" was docked on the docking ring, not an upper pylon.
(Don't ask me why I remember this... I just do.) Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I think before we speculate about the size of the "true" Hideki, we should leave out the "Hideki shuttle" which is a lot smaller (ca. 20m) than any of the other ships and must be a completely different class.
As usual, I plead for establishing only one size. The question is if this should be rather something like an "original size" (if there was ever one) or an average of the VFX sizes, ignoring only the most blatant scaling errors (like the huge BoPs in "The Defector" too).
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Assuming the little circle is an airlock of some kind that is 2m tall, I get a size of 125m. Assuming a height of 2.43m (8 feet = the usual height of walkable corridors on Star Trek sets), I get precisely 500 feet or 152.4m. (I checked this using a top view photo rather than a schematic and got 165m, so it's still about right).
I also found a post by Timo saying the Hideki from "Profit and Loss" is much bigger next to DS9 than in "Tribunal." Given that this was the ship's first appearance, it does seem that it was designed at 152m, then scaled down in some of the later episodes.
The balance of the evidence suggests 152m for the larger variant; a small ship but not too small. Assuming that the 85.78m were originally something like 60m (taking into account the DS9TM scaling error), it is possible that Drexler was thinking of the Hideki's appearance in "Tribunal", where it could've been scaled down.
Boris
[ March 24, 2002, 13:05: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes, assuming it is an airlock of some-sort - but going by the Galor, this is a place were a weapons array was placed (in-between the pincers).
Also about a possible Hidecki docked at an upper pylon - which episode was that then!?! Was it in The Maquis part 1??
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Rewatching "Tribunal", the scale of the Cardassian patrol ship isn't easily determinable. The ship doesn't really come alongside the Runabout or anything - it just swoops towards it in an arc, very darkly lit and menacing. The vessel could easily be much larger than the Runabout.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
The aft thing can't be a docking port. How should it connect with the station's docking port, for example? And I don't mean the phylons. There's no way to dock it 'backwards' at the station, allthough the ship might be able to 'move' the two claws in some way.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Thanks. The docking port just looked like a possibility, especially since the claws seem movable.
I checked the relevant scripts:
"Profit and Loss":
There's no mention of the ship being a freighter; the script simply describes it as a "small Cardassian ship". Dax says it's "definitely Cardassian" and doesn't describe it further; the important thing is that nobody's wondering why a teacher should be commanding a military ship. Maybe we ought to see it as a civilian variant.
The ship looks rough and is damaged because it had taken some pounding from the Cardassian disruptors while running away. Although Natima does say that she's "not much of a shuttle pilot", she then calls it a ship, as does everyone else. Furthermore, Quark says:
I've installed the cloaking device in your central engine core. You can activate it from the bridge as soon as the mooring clamps are released. Then I suggest you take your ship to warp eight and don't look back.
...suggesting that it probably isn't just any shuttle, with a maximum speed of probably Warp 8. Still, The cloaking device used is relatively small. Only three people were aboard, but this doesn't tell us much; after all, Picard and Riker were able to run the Enterprise-D in "11001001".
"Tribunal":
The computer describes it as a "Cardassian patrol ship, Hideki-class." That ought to be seen as the official class name and designation for this ship, given the source (Lwaxana Troi).
"Sacrifice of Angels":
A script note mentions "Hideki-class Dominion fighters". The writers obviously consider these ships identical to the patrol ships from "Tribunal."
"Tacking into the Wind":
Here, it's simply called a Cardassian shuttle. It was probably intended to be a different model altogether.
Conclusion: If I were Jim Martin reading the "Profit and Loss" script, I probably wouldn't design something that's 152m long. It would be a cross between a shuttle and a small ship; his Defiant concepts seem to fit the description perfectly, as does Doug Drexler's size if we correct it down to 60m. In "Tribunal", there would've been no need to scale up the ship.
On the other hand, it is likely that when the size of the Jem'Hadar attack ships was increased from 100m to 152m to match the 171m Defiant, so was the size of the Hidekis (at least by David Stipes). Unfortunately, the Hidekis are mostly seen next to Galors, and they aren't supposed to be small.
Perhaps we should distinguish between a 20-30m Hideki "shuttle" and a 152m Hideki fighter/patrol ship? After all, we really can't use DS9 as a size reference in "Profit and Loss," and there is the "shuttle" line common to the two episodes.
Another possibility is to ignore the large Hidekis altogether and use a 60m size for everything but the Cardassian shuttle, taking into account the fact that we've seen smaller Hidekis in the war arc likewise. Maybe we could also take into account the "shuttle pilot" line from "Profit and Loss" as a proof that Cardassians have a different meaning for the word shuttle, and use only one Hideki, regardless of the VFX from "Tacking into the Wind"?
[ March 25, 2002, 09:35: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Bernd said: As usual, I plead for establishing only one size. The question is if this should be rather something like an "original size" (if there was ever one) or an average of the VFX sizes, ignoring only the most blatant scaling errors (like the huge BoPs in "The Defector" too).
I know there is the whole BOP debate - and your page on this is very good - but there has to be SOME allowances for those huge BOPs in The Defector - since Picard/Tomalok was confidant that a Galaxy against 3 Warbirds = death but a Galaxy + 3 BOP = 3 Warbirds or even overpowers them.
[ March 26, 2002, 02:40: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I wouldn't call the P&L ship a shuttle after those Warp 8 and Bridge lines...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And actually, it makes sense for a Cardassian military patrol ship to be capable of high speeds up to Warp 8.
I just thought of something -- what if Lang and her two associates actually STOLE that ship? That would explain the military-ship-in-the-hands-of-civilians bit. And we know that Lang and Co. were desperate to get away...
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
There's no need to suggest that the ship was stolen; maybe it was assigned to her by the Cardassian government, given her previous position as a teacher, especially since Cardassia is a military dictatorship at the time. We know that the Cardassians care a lot for education and their children, hence sparing a downgraded military ship as a teaching tool doesn't seem terribly inconsistent.
As for the size, I think that a 152m Hideki patrol ship/teaching variant/fighter fits the evidence best, along with a 15m shuttle. It was probably meant to be smaller, but the average of the shots in all the episodes suggests a greater size, and we don't want to postulate several classes.
OR, if we want to take into account what was originally designed, maybe we could stick with 110m as a compromise, which happens to be roughly the average between the likely intended size (60m) and the new VFX size, and doesn't feel so big anymore for a teacher and three students.
OR, we could use the official size of 86m for simplicity and consistency.
The problem with the last two options is that they really won't fit the relationships with the Galors and other big ships, where the Hidekis appear to be almost capital ships.
[ March 26, 2002, 11:02: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I'm for 500'.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Dax... what is this with feet! You live in Australia! Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I do live in Australia but the Trek VFX guys don't. Although I otherwise use metric it can be useful to have an understanding of the imperial system when dealing with ship lengths. Even so, I still quote metric only on my website.
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