Here, the Hideki appears to fit David Stipes' 152m size. On the other hand, we still don't know where the DS9TM's 85.78m come from.
The Hideki first appeared in "Profit and Loss" (allegedly as a slightly different model) and was used again in "Tribunal", and then from "A Call to Arms" onward. It appeared as a much smaller ship in "Tacking into the Wind", but we may consider that something other than Hideki. Anybody have screencaps from the first two episodes or A Call to Arms? The former would really help.
Boris
[ March 23, 2002, 05:46: Message edited by: Boris ]
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
From what I remember, the Hideki as it appeared in "Tribunal" was about the same size as the runabout it was pursuing. Which is a long way from the 152 meter length that some people suggest.
Of course, didn't the Hideki model serve as a shuttle-sized ship in "Tacking into the Wind" as well?
I think the best potential comparison would be the shot in "Call to Arms" when a trio of Hidekis make a close strafing run against Ops, and one actually rams the shield bubble. We can get at least a reasonable size there.
The other shot would be THIS ONE which is also from Ship-o-rama. There are several Hidekis that are very close to the central Galor -- and each appears to be no longer than the main section (where the nacelle blades are). By my estimation, that'd make them 25% the length of a full Galor.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
I thought that last appearance was only a 'shuttle', sharing some similarity with the Hideki.
We have another comparison; the Runabout and Hideki from 'Tribunal' (was it 'Tribunal'?). Gul Evek's ship looked smaller than 152m. Maybe that was Sternbach's reference for the size.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
Something more for you:
I created 10 screenshots , the first five are from 'Call to Arms', the last five are from SoA.
H0: Between 90 and 200m long (given a 366m Galor), or 120 and 260m (given a 481m Galor). These are upper and lower limits, based on measurements of a Hideki that is above a Galor and another that is below. It seems the 152m VFX size was maintained here.
H4: both Hidekis are huge! Assuming a 1609m DS9 that the Effects used, two of the Hidekis scale out to 340/360m, respectively. Assuming a 1097m DS9 as designed, we're looking at 230m and 250m.
H2: This Hideki is 85m long assuming a 1609m DS9, otherwise it's 58m long.
H3: Here, we have an upper limit of about 260m, assuming a 1609m DS9, or 180m assuming a 1097m DS9.
H9: The Hideki is less than 90m long (assuming a 366m Galor), or less than 115m (assuming a 481m Galor). These are upper limits.
Using the VFX sizes for the Galor and DS9, and visually estimating the correct values between the upper and the lower limits, the average comes out to roughly 160m.
Using the design sizes for Galor and DS9, we obtain about 150m (I guess scaling up the Galor is somewhat compensated by scaling down DS9). I discarded H3 in both calculations because I wasn't sure how close the Hideki is to the pylon.
It appears that the Visual Effects have essentially done what David Stipes was telling us about -- they used a 152m baseline size while changing the actual relationships to satisfy story points.
I've examined the Hideki and the only structural detail is the height of that bridge window with respect to the base of the bridge, which I assume to be one deck. A 152m size happens to put the top edge of the window at 1.6m +/- 0.1 above the base of the circle, which seems about right, maybe a tad too low.
[ March 23, 2002, 19:45: Message edited by: Boris ]
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I've always wondered what the design lineage is between the Jemmie fighter and the Jemmie warship... and looking at the pictures, I think the 'swept back nacelles' on the fighter - matches the ships if you turn them around... maybe they had them going backwards on DS9/didn't like the first way they looked so turned them around?? It makes more sense - it sorta copies the fighters more - swept back nacelles, a blunt nose, 'pincers' at the back.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
The comparison chart is obviously derived from the DS9TM, although the Hideki here has been scaled up to about 100m. It maintains, however, the DS9TM relationship with the Jem'Hadar bug, which has also been scaled up. This could be due to an error, or a realization that 86m is a tad too small.
I'd like to see that Hideki from "Profit and Loss".
[ March 24, 2002, 07:02: Message edited by: Boris ]
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
The Hideki from "Profit and Loss" was docked on the docking ring, not an upper pylon.
(Don't ask me why I remember this... I just do.)
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
I think before we speculate about the size of the "true" Hideki, we should leave out the "Hideki shuttle" which is a lot smaller (ca. 20m) than any of the other ships and must be a completely different class.
As usual, I plead for establishing only one size. The question is if this should be rather something like an "original size" (if there was ever one) or an average of the VFX sizes, ignoring only the most blatant scaling errors (like the huge BoPs in "The Defector" too).
-------------------- Bernd Schneider
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Assuming the little circle is an airlock of some kind that is 2m tall, I get a size of 125m. Assuming a height of 2.43m (8 feet = the usual height of walkable corridors on Star Trek sets), I get precisely 500 feet or 152.4m. (I checked this using a top view photo rather than a schematic and got 165m, so it's still about right).
I also found a post by Timo saying the Hideki from "Profit and Loss" is much bigger next to DS9 than in "Tribunal." Given that this was the ship's first appearance, it does seem that it was designed at 152m, then scaled down in some of the later episodes.
The balance of the evidence suggests 152m for the larger variant; a small ship but not too small. Assuming that the 85.78m were originally something like 60m (taking into account the DS9TM scaling error), it is possible that Drexler was thinking of the Hideki's appearance in "Tribunal", where it could've been scaled down.
Boris
[ March 24, 2002, 13:05: Message edited by: Boris ]
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Rewatching "Tribunal", the scale of the Cardassian patrol ship isn't easily determinable. The ship doesn't really come alongside the Runabout or anything - it just swoops towards it in an arc, very darkly lit and menacing. The vessel could easily be much larger than the Runabout.
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
The aft thing can't be a docking port. How should it connect with the station's docking port, for example? And I don't mean the phylons. There's no way to dock it 'backwards' at the station, allthough the ship might be able to 'move' the two claws in some way.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
