We've never seen any sort of recruitment propaganda for Starfleet - per TNG, there hardly seems a shortage of volunteers. But given the primary mission of space exploration, you'd think that most people would join up with an eye on being part of that mission. Most Trek crews do indeed show that, too; they're out there to explore, and to improve the human condition. Yippee.
But let's say that YOU were suddenly thrust into the position of being able to apply to Starfleet Academy. On the application form is the inevitable question: "Why do you want to join Starfleet?"
We're talking about YOU, not some RPG character or some idealistic version of yourself. What would you answer?
Mark
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well it certainly wouln't be for the bountiful financial compensation ...
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Adventure, getting away from the same crap I deal with in my home area/planet.....
Which is a reason I did join when I did....
I think that it would be much like today's military, some would feel the draw of the different situations, while others would follow different paths....
Heck, Jake didn't want to join Starfleet, while Nog did....
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
To pick up on hot starfleet chicks.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ya know what's funny? The idea of the Starfleet exploration mission has been so over-glorified that people fail to remember that such a massive interstellar fleet requires a massive support infrastructure. There have got to be hundreds, if not thousands, of supply ships, couriers, transports, etc, not to mention ground support facilities. This is all established to be part of Starfleet... and do they have trouble recruiting for this area of the service?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Again, it's like the present military, or life in general....
Look at Matrix, he's going in to work on the aircraft, not fly them, which would be much more exciting....
You also have your librians, garbagemen, carpet cleaners, and all sorts of jobs that are demeaning... Look at factory work, someplaces won't even let you talk to the person next to you....
If there is a job, of any sort, there will be a person that is willing to do it, just create a few and watch who applies for it.....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well, they've got all the EMH mark 1's to do all the crappy work now! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not for long, if the Doc has anything to say about it...
But such is the crux of the problem.. In a utopian future, who cleans the floors? What about the maintenance guys seen mopping/vacuuming/whatever in ST2 and 3? What about the server guys in Ten-Forward? What about the entire crews of Starfleet ships whose sole purpose is to haul their butts back and forth between starbases, as Captain DeSoto put it? Do all of them join Starfleet (or their various sub-organizations) to see the universe? And how pissed off are they not to be doing just that?
Mark
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
"Gee, I always wanted to get off Planet HeckThisPlanetIsBoring III. But I can't afford it. So I'll join Starfleet. Ok, maybe I'll scrub the floors on a ship that only does cargo runs between two starbases ten months apart, but, hey, it's better then living with Mom & Dad on HeckThisPlanetIsBoring III!"
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The whole volunteer labour issue becomes somewhat more problematic in times of war. Joe Entomologist who hopped aboard the USS Sitak to collect and catalogue alien dragonfly samples in sector 123 for the Roddenberrian sake of it all might have fairly strong feelings about being ordered to stay aboard the ship as an assistant deputy director of damage control coordination on deck 5 when the ship is hurtling off to be cannon fodder against the Dominion.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The problem is figuring out why anyone does anything in a society without want or need.. most of the people in the military who do the so-called 'shitty' jobs do so because a) they are working on a career to a position here they dont have to do jobs they dont like or b) to get hooked up for joining the military with cash and scholarships.
But no one needs cash and nobody seems to have to pay for school in the future. Beyond the military, why does anyone become a garbageman? who cleans the toilets (oh wait.. thy clean themselves)
I think the idea of Trek's society being 'without need' to be inaccuarate. basically, with replicator technology, it is inexpensive to clothe, feed and house the entire population of the Federation.
THEORY: But beyond that, you would still have to work to earn money (or credit, since there is no 'money') to get the things you want. Theyll give you three square meals, a place to live and a few quasi-futuristic jumpsuits for free, but if you want to have three fancy meals, a place to live with a nice view, and a nice suit, you have to work up the credit.
But could the government require you to work? or do anything? Many references are made to the fact that, without the constraint of needs or wants, humans are free to 'enrich themselves' to aspire to do whatever they please. So perhaps there are those that work because they want to have a nice hovercar or a room with a view of the Golden Gate Bridge (oh wait .. I forgot.. every fucking house in SF has a view of the Golden Gate, according to filmed Trek). This leaves the people who dont really have anything to offer free to explore existence in a relaxed manner. But then, some fo these folks wouyld use the oodles of free time to explore poetry, art, music, etc, thus creating the utopic Earth we've theorized.
Of course, theres a mess of things to be considered there: an all encompassing media.. who decides, without money and sponsorship and sales, what 'good' art and other such creations are? Basically the same way as today, but less commercially.. bad artists will thrive because of overplay and good artists might lay in namelessness til they die. The only thing that is removed is the element of poverty. Would this free the arts or make it have no meaning?
And would the people who really have nothing to do get bored and find a job, just to keep busy (applying themselves to something simply to avoid boredom) Would the lack of challenge make them weak and cause society to collapse?
Perhaps thats why theyd leave Earth... fear of becoming meaningless...
Bashir's father certainly seems to be an example of what could happen.. he hops from job to job, trying whatever he pleases just for the amusement of it, and to be able to pass himself off as someone important who DOES something
What I have hesitated to mention is that, if no one chose to do anything, the government might be forced to require work from the population, or even worse, collapse, creating lots of evil repercussions. I'm thinknig that Federation system shouldnt be THAT much like socialism or communism, for fear of really scaring myself or starting a debate that will fill three or four areas of Flare with corpses
Of course, in Roddenberry's TMP novelization he says that most of Starfleet are conservatives who want to preserve old traditions, because Earth is full of 'New Humans' who've turned the place into a big commune. Which he would have shown in the Phase II pilot, nudity in the park included. I love how Gene makes it all make sense somehow
[ June 02, 2002, 21:29: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :
Man, you guys are forgetting the future ain't exactly the same with our world today financially.
People "thinks" garbage man, or floor cleaners are demeaning because frankly, they make squats on financial terms, therefore their quality of life sucks.
But in the Federation, government take care of almost everything a citizen may need to survive, not only that, they also provide plenty of free entertainments. Federation is able to provide all these through the means of holographic technology, replication, and abundence in energy sources (anti-matter).
Federation is as close as you can get to a idealistic communist society! Where people are no longer driven by desire to improve himself and himself only, but he's working towards the greater good of the society as a whole
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er...since when has the prevailing attitude been "we must devote ourselves to society."
Look, obviously the Federation is a little different than modern day nations. It's wealthier. A lot wealthier. What's valuable has completely shifted away from material goods, because most material goods are so easily produced. But that has nothing to do with the UFP being an "idealized communist society." The government is alive and well. The preeminance of the individual is alive and well.
Of course, ultimately the majority of the Federation is in our heads, not on the screen, largely by design, I suspect, and looks like whatever we want it to look like.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, without turning this into a full-bore debate on the Federation economy, I'll just point out that Mike seems to be, to sound dorky, stuck thinking like a 21st century human, or at least taking some aspects of our life today to be fundamental to human existence, when Trek has strongly implied otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: I think the idea of Trek's society being 'without need' to be inaccuarate. basically, with replicator technology, it is inexpensive to clothe, feed and house the entire population of the Federation.
THEORY: But beyond that, you would still have to work to earn money (or credit, since there is no 'money') to get the things you want. Theyll give you three square meals, a place to live and a few quasi-futuristic jumpsuits for free, but if you want to have three fancy meals, a place to live with a nice view, and a nice suit, you have to work up the credit
Herein lies the Roddenberriness of it all. Humans have been shown to be totally post-materialistic. Nobody really, really, wants three fancy meals, or a place to live with a nice view, or a nice suit. (Aside from the fact that to a replicator there's little difference between macaroni and cheese and filet mignon, or between a T-shirt and an Armani suit.)
And everyone winds up with a nice house, strangely enough. Don't ask me how that one works. Perhaps matte paintings with superimposed CG flying vehicles done by a crack art department are all the rage as wall hangings.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Well, I AM a dorky 21st century human..
Well, what I was trying to get at is, if you have everything you could ever want, why would you volunteer to go die in a metal box in space? seems pretty severe if all you are after is a change of scenery. But than again, there are always military types who will do such things, and they accept that tis not theirs to ask why...
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
First off, if Starfleet is anything like the US Navy or others navies. It is a total volunatary option. To boost moral, you can choose what you want, and when you want to do it. Also there is a possbility that you can be stationed on or near a place you want to be. For instance I had options to be a Nuke (Nuclear Propulstion Specialist), Diesal Propulsion Specialist, Aviation Structural Mechanic, Ship structural Mechanic, Shipyard Mechanic etc.
It depends on what you want to do, where you want to do it, if it is open, how long you want to do , how good you are at it, and so on.
I happen to be lucky that I will be stationed on the Enterprise, beause of crew rotation and refit by the time they're done in June 2003.
You have to work your way up to where you want to be. You can't just spend x amount of time in A School and expect to be doing the job the you wanted. You will start with jobs that you don't want to to do, because of your lower rank.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
A couple of arguments, both recycled and new (to this week's discussion anyway, although they probably are reruns from last summer):
1) People in the 24th century may try out flying in a stupid tin can because they have already tried out everything else. Starfleet could be one career out of the twenty-two an average long-lived and thoroughly trained no-worries citizen of the UFP is going to pursue during a normal lifetime (Bashir Sr. was just living a variant of that, aiming for 239 careers per lifetime the rate he was going). Only a minuscule portion of these people actually stick with Starfleet for more than a few years. Those who do get to go to the cool exploration cruises.
And the fact that Our Heroes enlisted at 18 or so is just a statistical illusion. Many others join at 32 or 68, explaining the multitude of low-ranking officers of age aboard the Enterprises.
2) Personnel in Starfleet are extensively rotated, so you don't get stuck with polishing the doorknobs of a depot ship. Only the more eccentric of the top officers insist on staying aboard a given assignment for any length of time.
3) People enlisting in Starfleet may just happen to have a death wish. Out of trillions, you will easily find a few million suicidees to fill your ships with - that's what personnel management databases were invented for.
4) Finding volunteers may not be a problem even without using such a search engine. If boredom is the greatest threat they have ever faced, their values will be skewed accordingly. Ending up with a menial job is not objectionable when compared with the boredom of no job at all. Nor is dying in the hands of an Alphabetan Bugomite. Those are alien experiences and thus do not appear nearly as threatening as the Devil They Know.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Why would I personally join Starfleet? The same reason as airbody else: command of a starship. Of course, there's more to it than that. Exploration, playing with the newest & neatest toys, & it goes to my "order" complex.
I don't think there'd be a problem filling so-called "lesser" posts. As said before, some are stops on the way to advancement, & some would just be suited to people. I always thought I'd make a grand Starfleet quartermaster, & even made a RPG character to match. She eventually went on to become Strategfic Operations Officer for her starbase & then got promoted to take command of a Yeager...but that's neither here nore there.
That's another thing: is there a distincition between staff & line like there is today? Crusher & Troi seem to say "no." Take a test & instant line qualifications.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i hate admitting this, as 'captain' is pretty much what people know me as everywhere, but i'd hardly think i would be cut out for a front line command position. in real life, most of my management jobs have been sad at best, (to be fair its because i was working at places where the overall authority structure was flawed by favoritism, but the fact remains i have a bad track record dealing with certain types of people).. i more imagine myself either with a desk job in a higher up position or as a lackey, possibly non-com. id make a pretty good officer of the deck given the chance maybe...
my best positions have been as a first assistant. i see what whoever is in charge wants, then work with the crew to get it done. all of the jobs and requirements, but ultimately someone else's show.
damn.. i'm riker.
[ June 03, 2002, 10:22: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Me? Because I've got a thing for exploration and the military. When I'm not busy discovering new vacation spots for the Federation, I'll gladly ride my tried-and-tested ol' Excelsior down the throat of any enemy.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
I'll take 1 New York. Take me anywhere and get me out alive. Yeah...
[ June 03, 2002, 17:54: Message edited by: Snay ]
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
First, a couple rebuttles...
Pointe the Firste ~ Reference TNG's "Up the Long Ladder". "The ship will clean itself". Granted, I don't suppose the Galaxy standard applies to all the old Mirandas flying around, but I expect anything built since the 2350s or earlier will have such systems in place...
Pointe the Seconde ~ The Federation does not equal Earth. It has been pretty much hammered out long since (especially in rec.arts.startrek.tech) that Earth of the 23rd and 24th centuries has a non-cash-based economy. The same seems to apply to many Earth-goverened or -affiliated colonies, but it is not, by any stretch, a universal state for all humans... I expect many, most, or all of the Federation member worlds enjoy a state of affairs at least similar to Earth, with effectively limitless energy and replicator technology pretty much eliminating just about any form of physical want.
Given that, I expect Starfleet maintains an office specifically to determine the reasonable cash compensation of a given Starfleet officer for that officer to draw upon when dealing with a Federation member world, affiliate, or Protectorate that still uses cash; or for a non-Federation world that still uses cash (such as Ferenginar). For all we know, Starfleet might maintain an unlimited expense account for Starfleet personnel, just because physical money is so easy to manufacture for the Federation. But to avoid destroying the local economy, I expect they limit it to realistic levels.
All that said, why would I want to join Starfleet. To see what's out there, to create the peace, to show the flag, to spread knowledge and understanding.
Personally, I think my niche would be commanding a Starfleet Intelligence cell, operating out of one of the border posts (probably along the Cardassian or Romulan border), and commanding a Runabout on missions.
Either that or diplomat-at-large for dealing with Powers hostile or formerly hostile to the Federation (such as the Romulans, Cardssians, or the Dominion). In that case, I'd probably also be a champion for Hugh and his other ex-Borg exiles...
But whatever the case, I'd be all for pushing back the boundaries of what is known and making the galaxy a little smaller...
...and maybe to occasionally boink an Orion chick...
--Jonah
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
We have an example of someone who was happy to stay on Earth and work for Starfleet Security... Tuvok.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
Whatever. I'm just going to pretend it's a post that was edited out. Every time.
[ June 04, 2002, 05:15: Message edited by: The Defiant ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
ROTFL!!! (the random link)
Oh...my...lord....
This is going to go on forever...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Yeah, but Tuvok is a re-re.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I just remembered a good example: Crewman Harren from Voyager's "Good Shepherd." He had signed aboard as an enlisted man for one year, simply because the College of Astronomy or whatever on Orion I required field experience.
The interesting point is that Voyager was originally assigned as a troubleshooter, as a patrol ship. What's so grand about chasing down Maquis fighters or stuff like that? Nothing, really. He was just there to do a job.
Also, it occurred to me that on most of the outlying member worlds and colonies, things are not nearly as "civilized" as on Earth, Vulcan, or Betazed. The colonies are often resource-poor, and require lots of work to maintain the system and get food. A small colony of a few thousand (or even more) isn't likely to have the umpteen-gigawatt power sources to allow them to replicate any little thing they need, for example.
I never actually answered the original question before...
Why would I personally join Starfleet? Though command sounds cool, I really don't think that's something that I'd want to do. I'd like to be in the science department, somewhere like Stellar Cartography. Although some division where I could get assigned to the occasional away mission would be nice too. (I'd only hope that "normal" Starfleet ships don't have a Redshirt Mortality Rate that's as high as the Enterprise... )
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Slightly off topic but can anyone remember what the highest (canon) numbered fleet mentioned was?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What do you mean?
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
I would be the Enterprise-E's armory officer.
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Highest cannon fleet number was the 10th fleet in "In the pale moonlight" the 9th is of course the fleet Martok commanded, the 2nd and 5th were mentioned in "Sacrifce of angels" with one of them being from the Vulcan(is?) front, the seventh was reduced to 14 ships in the Tyra system, and again destroyed trying to retake Betazed and was the fleet that the Destiny belonged to and which (presumbly) retook the Kalandra sector. I have heard mention of a 3rd fleet protecting Earth but I can't think of any epiosed in which it was said.
On a related question what was the highest Order number we heard of? The 11th? The highest jem'hadar unit was the fake 22nd (or was it 24) legion in "In the pale moonlight", any body know any others?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
You seem to have misinterpreted the question, Wes1701E!
WHY would you join Starfleet? What role would you want?
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I'd mostly join to meet new people and find out about things. Although the spector of Command would be very appealing, I wouldn't do well in the highly competitive arena of Starfleet. They'd initially track me for engineering, but when they found out that my math-blok starts at integral calculus, I'd have to find something else to do. I'd probably wind up working as an interface designer for the technologists (albeit with a secret burning contempt for the universalization of Starfleet culture that would drive me to insert little in-jokes (that only I would find funny) like ducks and things into their MSDs.) But what I'd really want to do is direct.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Why? Because I could.
What position? Ship's Librarian, of course. "SHH! Or I'll STUN YOU!"
Ah, screw it. Give me a holodeck, a food replicator, and a reliable power source, and you can lock me in. I'll never leave.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The specter of command? Is that the ghost of Jim Kirk, or something?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
In the Starfleet, yes, you can scrub some plasma valves. In the Starfleet, yes, you can put your phaser to stun. In the Starfleet, come on now people, raise those shields. In the Starfleet, where everyone wears skintight suits. In the Starfleet, come on, please don't wear red. In the Starfleet, come on and shoot those Klingons, man. In the Starfleet, come on, please talk technobabble. In the Starfleet, in the Starfleet.
In the Starfleet...
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
one time at star camp...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
harry, is that yo or are you quoting something i should recognize.. i love it, man
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I believe Harry's doing a spoof of The Village People's "In the Navy".
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
why isnt my name in bold up there!?
yeah, i wrote that as i got home after working all night.. i would have recognized that, but such subtleties are obviously lost on my before i sleep for the first time in a week... still, i love it.. we should record it!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote: why isnt my name in bold up there!?
Wha? *Your* name? *My* name is not in bold up there.
And yes, it's "In The Starfleet" by "The Village People". And don't forget their other great hit "ASDB".
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Another, related, question is why would you (or anyone) STAY in Star Fleet after the DW?
I mean from a "certain viewpoint" they *started* the war by sticking their nose in the wormhole even when asked to stop. Sent large numbers to their deaths in ancient Miranda's and generally didn't fight all that well.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
all the same reasons people joined the army even after vietnam, a messy, deadly conflict with few answers as to why to whole deal happened... joining the army is usually a personal choice taken for a number of reasons.. while after disturbing conflicts, many types of people would shy away, theres still a large number who will continue to take part.. look at history
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Sent large numbers to their deaths in ancient Miranda's and generally didn't fight all that well.
They won. That tends to override other historical concerns.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i'm just starting to do the necessary hand motions for the song 'ASDB' .. we really should record that one
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