Does anyone have any pics or renderings of Chakotay's (or chuckles in TrekBBS) Raider. I have not seen anything on it or about it. Did Chakotay sit in a command chair or was he pushing buttons in the front seat?
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Despite later claims to the contrary [I'm fairly certain that he said he had a helmsman], Chakotay seemed to be sitting in the conn seat the entire episode.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yes, I seem to remember a scene of (from left of screen to right) Tuvok, Squirrel Boy, & Torres all wedged into a bench seat in fron of a console in one of those "how the fuck did they get in there" cockpits. The whole setup reminded me massively of the ship from "Explorers." The movie with Ethan Hawke, River Phoenix, & Robert Picardo, not the DS9 episode.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I thought the Raider's bridge was a modification of the Runabout cockpit (no command chair at all). Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It was. They basically replaced the LCARS and that was it. Chakotay and Torres were in the front seats, Tuvok off to port.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Actually, I think that Chakotay had the only front seat. I have a mental image of Torres facing sideways on the starboard side.
I've got a tape of "Caretaker" downstairs... I'll see if I can get a quick reference later this afternoon.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'll do one better:
Trust in the Mark. The Mark knows.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ah. So she WAS facing sideways in that shot... but so was Chakotay. So they're both facing forwards.
Does that make B'Elanna the (unofficial) first officer of the raider? Not that it's particularly important, just wondering.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I don't think so - I think it was Tuvok. His cover was probably as another disgruntled Starfleet lieutenant, and in Chakotay's mind that should be sufficient to place above a cadet who left the academy. There's nothing that says that a ship's XO has to be sitting in any particular seat; just look at Spock. For all we know, the XO could've been Ayala, who was fixing things in the background during that scene.
This is of course assuming that there was an XO to begin with. There were no more than forty people on the ship to begin with, and from what we know of the Defiant there isn't necessarily a traditional command structure on ships with crews so small. Should Chakotay have tried to set up a Starfleet style doodad on his ship, there need not have been a proper XO.
Mark
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I thought Torres was the chief engineer, and I don't remember a chief being the XO of a vessel. Probably because they have enogh to do in engineering and it would slow down the whole process; instead they use a 'bridge officer' (which leads to the question: why was Torres - at that time - on the bridge/chockpit/whtever? I got the impression that she was able to control everything important from her station, but wouldn't it make more sense to have her 'down' in engineering?)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That's why I was wondering if she might have doubled as the first officer.
IMO, Tuvok wouldn't have been a good candidate because I think he was there for only a short amount of time -- he was only an undercover agent. I'm assuming that he wasn't there long enough to earn the trust/respect/etc to get that position. B'Elanna, on the other hand, has been firmly established as a close friend of Chakotay's and a longtime ally. That's why I'd figure she'd be the XO.
Of course, the REAL reason that she was on the bridge was that she was a Main Character, and needed to be established right away. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
As far as these "How the "fuck" did they get in there?" cockpits go, this one need not be as bad as the others. Seeing how the ship is scaled to be a multi-deck vessel, there could have been a nice floor hatch and a ladder there...
Oh, and I'm sure Chakotay had his duty roster worked out to the minutest detail, including the XOs for all three shifts. I'm not all that convinced that any of his crew actually gave a flying fuck about that duty roster, though. They would more probably have worked on a "Today's my turn to drive!" "Oh yeah? It's my turn now!" basis. Whether Chakotay responded to that with a punch or two of his own, or by simply writing his rosters in pencil... Both would have been prefectly in character, IMHO.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Wow Timo, in all the years I've known you, I don't think I've ever read you using the word "fuck"..!
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
LOL, Timo, good point. Voyager generally portrayed the Maquis as less organized, and more go-with-the-flow as far as maintaining/running the starship went.
But it would still make sense to have some kind of duty roster. Otherwise who would want to work the night shift? If a Cardassian cruiser happened to be in the area, I doubt that they would have been running on Earth Standard Time.
Anyway, I guess there was no XO at all. Maybe Torres was just the copilot or something.
Posted by Magenta Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I always got the feeling that the Maquis were never in space for very long anyway. They'd go on missions, then it's back to base, Joe. Even if they did have formal duty rosters, my guess is it would only be for a couple of days.
The Maquis' command structure always seemed to be mostly based on club house rules. Someone was "in charge" because he was the one who started the cell, or had sort of risen to that position. Everyone respected that person (or at least tolerated them) and sort of did as they were told.
A formal command structure doesn't really seem to fit with their mentality. As such, I doubt anyone was specifically an XO. Had Chakotay been killed, someone would've started giving orders, and more than likely there would have been disagreements as to who was in charge.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
They got a small bridge/cockpit on a rather large ship. That makes no sense. I would expect that size cockpit at least in the TNG version.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Could be that a civilian ship design doesn't require much in the way of bridge operations. That's assuming that the big ugly torpedo launchers and wingtip cannon were added by the Maquis on an otherwise unarmed or modestly armed design.
Clearly, the new bridge was designed to correspond to the existing Runabout set, just like the earlier cockpit of the ship (in "Preemptive Strike") had matched the windows of the TNG Alien Shuttle set. This time, the windows were a bit more square than those of the set, but the positioning was the same - and one can always say that the windows were like big funnels, with large square outer panels but smaller inner ones. Such a window design would help the pilot see down during landing (and surely this ship was supposed to be landing-capable).
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, while I doubt there was much in the way of formal chain-of-command structure on a typical Maquis vessel, Chakotay was a former Starfleet commander, and probably ran a bit tighter ship than average.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I suppose it depends on whether this design was civilian or Starfleet. It doesn't really correspond with the usual Starfleet designs, but you also should consider that for such a small configuration, the saucer-hull-nacelles arrangement would be a really big waste of space.
Now that I think about it, the raider has some things in common with the Defiant -- the nose, nacelles mounted alongside the main body, and pulse phasers on the wingtips (or nacelles on the Defiant).
Some fan speculation have suggested that this raider design was a short-range patrol/defense ship that was introduced for border service during the Cardassian Wars. Given the wings, it might actually be built for some kind of atmospheric operations, too. Like landing troops if the Cardassians have set up transporter inhibitors.
If that's the case, even if it were a 60-meter ship, it'd still be designed to be operated by a relatively small crew -- which would explain the small cockpit. Also remember that even the Galaxy Class had a relatively small bridge -- only four major stations (helm, ops, engineering, and tactical), with the rest being science-based or for commanders. And on the raider, there was no need for command stations because Chakotay was flying.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I guess I don't really believe that this would be a purely civilian design. Both the versions we saw had very well-integrated torpedo launchers, and those presumably ate extensively into the internal volume of the ships. Nothing "modular" or "welded-on" about the look of the launchers. The wingtip cannon could have been Maquis add-ons, though.
It certainly shouldn't have taken 30-40 people to run the ship. So clearly the Maquis were using it as some sort of a personnel transport in "Caretaker". Perhaps they were evacuating a cell; perhaps they were fleeing after performing a surface raid of some sort. Since they were in a desperate situation when we first saw them, we can't just go and claim that "carrying 30-40 people" was a natural activity for the ship, or something it was built for.
But if the ship was merely built to move the big torp launchers to battle at warp speed, then it probably wouldn't have much extra interior space. So the original design must have allowed for some cargo/passenger space. And a combination of such heavy armament plus large holds suggests it's indeed an "assault transport" of some sort, a futuristic M-113 or M-2/3. The weapons fit is too heavy for mere self-protection, even without the wingtip cannon.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If anyone can remember, yes indeed it seemed to be a redress of the runabout cockpit. in the space between the seats was a central 'column' with LCARS displays on it. (anyone notice that these displays are ENT-B/ENT-C era?
The Port station was Tuvok, the Forward Port chair was Chakotay and the Forward Starboard chair was B'Elanna. (See the pic for the latter two).
There were extras who entered the area was there not? Was there walking-space on either side of the central column or did you have to walk past B'Elanna to move to aft areas?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
What I am saying is not the if the bridge/cockpit is too small, but for a ship with that size 'nose' should have a cockpit sized... cockpit.
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