I was reading the topic about lightspeed on the Flameboard, and someone brought up the topic of black holes.
quote:Originally posted by Colorful Cartman: Now, imagine an object with such an enormous concentration of mass in such a small radius that its escape velocity was greater than the speed of light. Since nothing can go faster than light, nothing could escape that object's gravitational field -- including light itself.
I've never thought of black holes in terms of escape velocity before, so that gave me something to think about.
However, it occurred to me that starships are capable of traveling faster than the speed of light. Would that suggest that a black hole's event horizon would not "really" trap a starship? If the escape velocity is the speed of light, then a ship would theoretically only have to jump to Warp 1.1 to escape the event horizon. (Rather than doing something as ludicrous as phasering a hole in it...)
(I apologize if I gave anyone recurring nightmares about "Parallax" with this question... )
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But what if the escape velocity is A LOT higher than c? I don't know what the escape velocity of a black hole should be (and probably no-one else knows either), but perhaps even a starship can't get out. Or perhaps such an immense gravity distorts subspace as well, and makes warp unusable.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Well, the escape velocity really depends on how deep into the hole you're talking about. It is c exactly at the event horizon; hence, things just outside the horizon are visible because they can escape at sublight speeds. A starship, in theory, could escape a black hole at warp speed proportional to the escape velocity at any given radius. Eventually, it would get to be so high that even the fastest warp drives won't cut it... though by that point, the radius may be so small that the ship wouldn't even fit inside to worry about it.
The problem with a starship in a black hole (as Voyager in "Parallax") would be that you'd need the SIF and shields on full to handle the gravity gradiant (tidal "ripping" effects) and ludicrously high radiation, not to mention have your engines running at escape equillibrium to counteract the gravity constantly pulling you down. Even ignoring the ridiculous science in "Parallax," there could have been a host of difficulties for Voyager to deal with.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Yes. I would've thought that any black hole would exert such horrific forces that any ship in proximity would be obliterated, long before you even got to say 'Engage'.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yes. The "gravity gradiant" mentioned before refers to the fact that gravity is stronger the closer you get the the center. This is true of anything; gravity is stronger on Earth at lower elevations because you're nearer the center of the planet. However, since the gravity of Earth is so weak anyway, the effect is unnoticeable. However, in a black hole, the difference is very noticeable. The end of the ship closer to the center will be pulled harder than the end farther away. Therefore, the near end will move toward the center more quickly than the far end, causing the ship to stretch. Or, since the ship isn't flexible, it'll tear apart.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ah, okay. That all makes sense. I guess I didn't think it all the way through. (And no jokes, smart asses! )
I remember seeing some image recorded from a telescope showing a stream of gases that was being sucked from a star that was a companion to a black hole. (Or maybe I'm transposing this mental image with my memories of TNG's "Realm of Fear." Whatever.)
On a slightly related topic, then, why do all of the official Trek references still say that Voyager 6 was swallowed by a black hole?
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
It wasn't. It can't have been, at least that's the theory I accept. Perhaps it was due to those in control of the tracking telemetry for the probe simply putting two and two together - it disappeared, proximity to a black hole, and hey presto. That's probably what was believed anyway, and what was recorded in the history books.
I've always reckoned it floated into a wormhole, hence the fact that it reappeared again so far away, perhaps in the Delta Quadrant. And from early TNG onwards I always postulated that it was in fact the Borg that was the 'machine planet/race' that V'ger encountered. Many others probably think the same thing.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yeah, I know that they MEANT "wormhole," but I was wondering why the Encyclopedia still said the probe was swallowed by a black hole, and then sent across the galaxy. The whole theory behind a black hole is that it's a giant sucker... anything goes in, and it doesn't come back out. Like a giant interstellar roach motel.
To comment on the V'ger/Borg theory, I used to like that idea as well. But then I realized a couple of problems:
The Borg, as a powerful, interstellar-capable species, would consider the Voyager 6 probe to be completely irrelevant. Primitive technology.
Their goal is assimilation, not coexisting with "kindred spirits." If they'd done anything with the probe, they would've used the golden plaque to find Earth and assimilate it before Zefram Cochrane ever even thought of warp theory.
Spock spoke of the Machine Planet as a "society" of machines, with nothing approaching the combination of biological and technological components. In fact, the entire point of the climax of the movie was Decker and Ilia merging with V'ger to provide the "organic leap" in consciousness.
The power that V'ger wielded is far beyond anything the Borg have demonstrated. A massive cloud some 80 AU's in diameter to surround a gigantic spaceship? Massive plasma-based "digitizing" beams that can wipe out ships with a single bolt?
Aside from the basis of a machine-oriented "society," there's really not much that's similar between V'ger and the Borg. Besides, doesn't the Encyclopedia state that Roddenberry "JOKINGLY" suggested that the Machine Planet was the Borg? I think it was a JOKE! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: some 80 AU's in diameter
Now officially two, as of the Director's Cut. This, I think, is a good thing. I mean, honestly, twice as big as Earth's orbit is quite big enough, thank you.
The tidal forces of a black hole depend on its size, too. At the heart of galaxies and perhaps in other interesting locations, black holes can grow to monsterous sizes. These supermassive black holes have event horizons so large (and so far away from their singularity) that you could probably sit comfortably inside them, with nary a hair out of place. Aside from the fact that your death due to stretchifying is now inevitable.
Or is it? When black holes spin, their singularity will distort from a simple point to a ring. Now, I am not smart enough to explain this, and not nearly smart enough to even really know what I am talking about, but the math of the smart people suggests that when you have a ring singularity, the inside of it is...Interesting, from a topological perspective. You could travel through it if the ring is large enough and your craft is strong enough. Once you do, you essentially pull the pants of spacetime down, and everything goes crazy and time goes backwards and Winger becomes popular again and things are just generally messed up beyond all belief.
Another point in the V'Ger/Borg discussion. The impression was made that the probe actually came from OUTSIDE our galaxy.
Besides, the V'Ger's technology was far beyond Borg technology. If the Borg were capable of digitizing entire planets and shutting down planetary defenses with the switch of a button, they would've conquered all quadrants by now.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not so sure. The Borg easily replicated V'ger's feat of slipping into the system unopposed. And I don't get the impression that V'ger intended to use its destructive scan technique on the whole planet. It was just going to sterilze it.
At any rate, I submit that a meeting of the two could only be a Bad Thing for the rest of us, one way or the other.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The Borg weren't unoppossed. It's just that the opposition didn't amount to much.
V'Ger was unoppossed, because Starfleet was trying out it's new movie policy of "let's send all available starships (bar one), away from Earth, just for a bit of a laugh. Eh?"
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Another lovely little problem with black holes is time dilation. The closer you get to the event horizon, the slower time passes. When you hit the event horizon (and your escape velocity reaches c , time comes to a stop. It doesn't matter if you have warp, transwarp, quantum slipstream, or infinite improbability drive; you won't have any time to say "Engage."
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: some 80 AU's in diameter
Now officially two, as of the Director's Cut. This, I think, is a good thing. I mean, honestly, twice as big as Earth's orbit is quite big enough, thank you.
True, 2 AU is more than enough. Maybe I got the 80 AU figure from the TMP novel, which I read about ten years ago...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, I'm pretty sure that Decker says "Over 80 AUs in diameter" in the original.
What did they do? Obscure his face? Dub over it? Did Omega mind being called in to say the word "two"?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
He originally said eighty two AUs, they merely slienced the eighty part.
quote: It doesn't matter if you have warp, transwarp, quantum slipstream, or infinite improbability drive; you won't have any time to say "Engage."
I don't know, I think having a black hole spontaneously turning into a pair of Belgian folk singers wearing cereal packets and dancing to the tune of a Vogon funeral dirge is a finite possibility Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
To counter MMs comments, I'll extract the text from the old theory I initially constructed:
quote:"that the machine civilization 'V'Ger' encountered may have in fact been the Borg, who, finding this kindred machine and discovering its mission to absorb and assimilate information in order to progress and perfect understanding greatly enhanced its technology, giving it the ability to physically adapt and reconfigure itself. They constructed a new vehicle to convey the central probe unit, whilst endowing it with incredibly advanced scientific and technical knowledge. During its voyage over the course of several centuries, it became so huge, accumulated so much information and technology, it became a sentient emergent lifeform."
Yes, the Borg's goal is assimilation, but they seemed to have altered their goals before, between episodes 'Q Who?' and 'TBoBW', (they were only interested in technology in 'Q Who?', not assimilation), and again in First Contact - their conquest then greatly involved acquiring Data for the collective, when before he'd been called 'obsolete' in the Borg's long term objectives.
- Spock's observations of a society of living machines was merely a visual and perceptual interpretation at the time, and can't be taken as 100% correct.
- V'Ger also evolved to be as powerful as it was, yes, extending far beyond that of the Borg, because it may have been on that journey for centuries gathering data and an evolving consciousness, maybe even millennia, particularly if the wormhole/black hole had also gone back in time.
It's just a theory, anyway.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
If you passed through an event horizon and were through some magic able to come out again, yes, you'd find that an infinite amount of time had passed in the outside universe since you went in.
But why that should be an obstacle to starships, chief among whose features is that warp drive does away with time dilation, is beyond me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...they were only interested in technology in 'Q Who?', not assimilation..."
I don't think so. Maybe they didn't want to assimilate the crew at that exact moment, but it was obvious that they were into assimilation in general. Otherwise, where did the Borg that we saw come from?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The Borg had to have always been into assimilation. Why would they have gone after Guinan's entire species otherwise? They just wanted to get the Enterprise-D's technology first.
Phase One: Unknown ship shows up. (Yeah yeah, thanks to our wonderful friend Braga, the Borg knew all about the Federation!) They send a single drone aboard to analyze its technological capabilities to resist. One drone gets fried, but the Borg quickly adapt to the hand phasers.
Phase Two: Prepare for assimilation by locking a tractor beam on the Enterprise. The Enterprise fights back and causes major damage that forces the Borg to go into regeneration mode.
Mark, don't forget that Spock mind-melded with V'ger. Although he was overwhelmed by the link to such a powerful consciousness, he still had to have gotten some fairly accurate information. There's a big difference between a machine and a machine-humanoid hybrid.
The Borg also aren't interested in other beings' quests for perfection. In their mind, they'd be doing the other guys a favor by assimilating them, therefore uniting their two quests for perfection. Take Data in "First Contact," for example. Data is on a quest for "perfection" -- but the Borg would rather that he do it on their terms.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Yeah yeah, thanks to our wonderful friend Braga, the Borg knew all about the Federation!
Try as I might, I can't seem to find his name anywhere in the credits. But I am sure the minor detail of him not being hired by Paramount until several years later is easily overcome through a complicated and entertaining conspiracy theory.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: Yeah yeah, thanks to our wonderful friend Braga, the Borg knew all about the Federation!
Try as I might, I can't seem to find his name anywhere in the credits. But I am sure the minor detail of him not being hired by Paramount until several years later is easily overcome through a complicated and entertaining conspiracy theory.
I was referring to "Dark Frontier," in which the Hansen Family was assimilated, at least ten years before the events of "Q Who?"
The whole point of the early Borg episodes was that the Collective was not aware of the Federation, but once they found out in "Q Who?" they decided to go invite Humanity to join their quest for perfection.
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
It's a good thing you're not British, else you'd certainly feel the brunt of some comment using the word "Hegimony."
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er, except for that moment a season earlier where they were assimilating several Starfleet bases.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
I was going by the line from Guinan in 'Q Who?', which went, and I quote:
"They're not interested in you, just your technology..."
And in TBoBW it was also made apparant in the script that the Borg's objective had changed, significantly.
MM, you bring up good points, and I agree there is plenty to counter the Borg/V'Ger theory. But I won't throw it out entirely. There's still a few tantalising titbits that will keep me sitting on the fence for now.
Ever read the TNG book Vendetta? (I think it was) There were some interesting, if somewhat far fetched theories regarding the Borg and the Doomsday Machine in that...
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The book was indeed Vendetta. What seems so far-fetched about a race building a big gun to fight off the Borg?
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Well, it was stretching it a little, being an obviously attempt to just tie TOS into TNG and the Borg.
(BTW, it wasn't Guinan that said the line about the Borg being only interested in technology in 'Q Who', it was Q himself.)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The "God of Lies"?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm with Red Admiral on this. At the time of "Q Who" the assimilation thing cleary wasn't intended. It has since been retconned into the Borg always having had an assimilation urge, but it wasn't planned at the time.
Evidence: Q saying that the Borg aren't interesting in the crew, only their ship. "They've seen it as something they can consume".
Guinan: "They destroyed my people". Yeahm she could have been talking in a general sense, but "they assimilated my people into their own" sounds scarier, and she was trying to get Picard to fly away.
quote: it was obvious that they were into assimilation in general. Otherwise, where did the Borg that we saw come from?
Don't forget that we saw a nursery in that episode. The implication was that the Borg still have babies (althogh most likely in a totally artificial way. Possibly the sperm and eggs are removed as soon as possible, and the whole thing is done in the borg equivalent of test tubes). The babies are then implanted with cyborg components almost immedietly.
The change was also verbalised in BoBW:
"What the hell do they want with you?" "I thought they weren't interesting in our life form, only in our technology." "Their priorities seem to have changed."
And then, by "I,Borg", assimilation has become the Borg's primary goal.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Or, as Timo says, Q was misrepresenting the Borg. Or, to be charitable, he was mentioning only the parts he found most important at the time.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Here's a compromise: Q was telling the truth, from a certain point of view.
Seriously. Remember the line from "Dark Frontier," where the Queen said something to the effect that Humanity was a biologically inferior species, "wholly unremarkable." So in "Q Who?" they found this ship with unremarkable beings, but with some cool-looking technology. They sent the scout aboard to check out the technology.
And also remember that EVERYTHING that Starfleet knew was provided by Q. And so the apparently-changed priorities were not changed at all -- the Borg just became more interested in Humanity because of their strong capacity for resistance.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i agree. when the borg first saw the Enterprise, all they cared about was the tech. once the Federation managed to beat the Borg back a couple times, the Borg started wondering about the biological component, as the relatively inferior Federation tech wasn't winning battles by itself.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, the babies in the nursery still had to be assimilated, yes? Whether or not the Borg were actually interested in "biological distinctiveness" back then is one thing. But it's obvious that they have, for a very long time, assimilated people by sticking cybernetic implants in them, if for no other reason than to increase their numbers.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Oh, I'm not saying that now it's not obvious that the Borg have always been into the assimilation thing. Certainly every episode post "I, Borg" implies or shows that the Borg have been assimilating for centuries.
All I'm saying is that at the time of "Q Who", I'm sure it was the intention of the writers that the Borg were only interested in technology, and didn't give a jot about assimilating organic life forms.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh, sure. I know that. Really.
Sorry, got too much into the "rationalizing" role again...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That depends on whether they were still trying to connect the Borg to the Conspiracy aliens at this point.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I've never read anything to confirm that. But then, I've never read anything to deny it either. In fact, I never even realised that the Conspiracy aliens evolved into the Borg in the first place until you mentioned it a while back.
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