posted
I was reading the topic about lightspeed on the Flameboard, and someone brought up the topic of black holes.
quote:Originally posted by Colorful Cartman: Now, imagine an object with such an enormous concentration of mass in such a small radius that its escape velocity was greater than the speed of light. Since nothing can go faster than light, nothing could escape that object's gravitational field -- including light itself.
I've never thought of black holes in terms of escape velocity before, so that gave me something to think about.
However, it occurred to me that starships are capable of traveling faster than the speed of light. Would that suggest that a black hole's event horizon would not "really" trap a starship? If the escape velocity is the speed of light, then a ship would theoretically only have to jump to Warp 1.1 to escape the event horizon. (Rather than doing something as ludicrous as phasering a hole in it...)
(I apologize if I gave anyone recurring nightmares about "Parallax" with this question... )
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posted
But what if the escape velocity is A LOT higher than c? I don't know what the escape velocity of a black hole should be (and probably no-one else knows either), but perhaps even a starship can't get out. Or perhaps such an immense gravity distorts subspace as well, and makes warp unusable.
posted
Well, the escape velocity really depends on how deep into the hole you're talking about. It is c exactly at the event horizon; hence, things just outside the horizon are visible because they can escape at sublight speeds. A starship, in theory, could escape a black hole at warp speed proportional to the escape velocity at any given radius. Eventually, it would get to be so high that even the fastest warp drives won't cut it... though by that point, the radius may be so small that the ship wouldn't even fit inside to worry about it.
The problem with a starship in a black hole (as Voyager in "Parallax") would be that you'd need the SIF and shields on full to handle the gravity gradiant (tidal "ripping" effects) and ludicrously high radiation, not to mention have your engines running at escape equillibrium to counteract the gravity constantly pulling you down. Even ignoring the ridiculous science in "Parallax," there could have been a host of difficulties for Voyager to deal with.
posted
Yes. I would've thought that any black hole would exert such horrific forces that any ship in proximity would be obliterated, long before you even got to say 'Engage'.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
Yes. The "gravity gradiant" mentioned before refers to the fact that gravity is stronger the closer you get the the center. This is true of anything; gravity is stronger on Earth at lower elevations because you're nearer the center of the planet. However, since the gravity of Earth is so weak anyway, the effect is unnoticeable. However, in a black hole, the difference is very noticeable. The end of the ship closer to the center will be pulled harder than the end farther away. Therefore, the near end will move toward the center more quickly than the far end, causing the ship to stretch. Or, since the ship isn't flexible, it'll tear apart.
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posted
Ah, okay. That all makes sense. I guess I didn't think it all the way through. (And no jokes, smart asses! )
I remember seeing some image recorded from a telescope showing a stream of gases that was being sucked from a star that was a companion to a black hole. (Or maybe I'm transposing this mental image with my memories of TNG's "Realm of Fear." Whatever.)
On a slightly related topic, then, why do all of the official Trek references still say that Voyager 6 was swallowed by a black hole?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
It wasn't. It can't have been, at least that's the theory I accept. Perhaps it was due to those in control of the tracking telemetry for the probe simply putting two and two together - it disappeared, proximity to a black hole, and hey presto. That's probably what was believed anyway, and what was recorded in the history books.
I've always reckoned it floated into a wormhole, hence the fact that it reappeared again so far away, perhaps in the Delta Quadrant. And from early TNG onwards I always postulated that it was in fact the Borg that was the 'machine planet/race' that V'ger encountered. Many others probably think the same thing.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
Yeah, I know that they MEANT "wormhole," but I was wondering why the Encyclopedia still said the probe was swallowed by a black hole, and then sent across the galaxy. The whole theory behind a black hole is that it's a giant sucker... anything goes in, and it doesn't come back out. Like a giant interstellar roach motel.
To comment on the V'ger/Borg theory, I used to like that idea as well. But then I realized a couple of problems:
The Borg, as a powerful, interstellar-capable species, would consider the Voyager 6 probe to be completely irrelevant. Primitive technology.
Their goal is assimilation, not coexisting with "kindred spirits." If they'd done anything with the probe, they would've used the golden plaque to find Earth and assimilate it before Zefram Cochrane ever even thought of warp theory.
Spock spoke of the Machine Planet as a "society" of machines, with nothing approaching the combination of biological and technological components. In fact, the entire point of the climax of the movie was Decker and Ilia merging with V'ger to provide the "organic leap" in consciousness.
The power that V'ger wielded is far beyond anything the Borg have demonstrated. A massive cloud some 80 AU's in diameter to surround a gigantic spaceship? Massive plasma-based "digitizing" beams that can wipe out ships with a single bolt?
Aside from the basis of a machine-oriented "society," there's really not much that's similar between V'ger and the Borg. Besides, doesn't the Encyclopedia state that Roddenberry "JOKINGLY" suggested that the Machine Planet was the Borg? I think it was a JOKE!
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Now officially two, as of the Director's Cut. This, I think, is a good thing. I mean, honestly, twice as big as Earth's orbit is quite big enough, thank you.
The tidal forces of a black hole depend on its size, too. At the heart of galaxies and perhaps in other interesting locations, black holes can grow to monsterous sizes. These supermassive black holes have event horizons so large (and so far away from their singularity) that you could probably sit comfortably inside them, with nary a hair out of place. Aside from the fact that your death due to stretchifying is now inevitable.
Or is it? When black holes spin, their singularity will distort from a simple point to a ring. Now, I am not smart enough to explain this, and not nearly smart enough to even really know what I am talking about, but the math of the smart people suggests that when you have a ring singularity, the inside of it is...Interesting, from a topological perspective. You could travel through it if the ring is large enough and your craft is strong enough. Once you do, you essentially pull the pants of spacetime down, and everything goes crazy and time goes backwards and Winger becomes popular again and things are just generally messed up beyond all belief.
posted
Another point in the V'Ger/Borg discussion. The impression was made that the probe actually came from OUTSIDE our galaxy.
Besides, the V'Ger's technology was far beyond Borg technology. If the Borg were capable of digitizing entire planets and shutting down planetary defenses with the switch of a button, they would've conquered all quadrants by now.
posted
I'm not so sure. The Borg easily replicated V'ger's feat of slipping into the system unopposed. And I don't get the impression that V'ger intended to use its destructive scan technique on the whole planet. It was just going to sterilze it.
At any rate, I submit that a meeting of the two could only be a Bad Thing for the rest of us, one way or the other.
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posted
The Borg weren't unoppossed. It's just that the opposition didn't amount to much.
V'Ger was unoppossed, because Starfleet was trying out it's new movie policy of "let's send all available starships (bar one), away from Earth, just for a bit of a laugh. Eh?"
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posted
Another lovely little problem with black holes is time dilation. The closer you get to the event horizon, the slower time passes. When you hit the event horizon (and your escape velocity reaches c , time comes to a stop. It doesn't matter if you have warp, transwarp, quantum slipstream, or infinite improbability drive; you won't have any time to say "Engage."
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Now officially two, as of the Director's Cut. This, I think, is a good thing. I mean, honestly, twice as big as Earth's orbit is quite big enough, thank you.
True, 2 AU is more than enough. Maybe I got the 80 AU figure from the TMP novel, which I read about ten years ago...
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