It's been a while, but I've finally finished it. There were at least half a dozen separate threads that were started about a year ago on the topic of fighters. It got me thinking about fighters a lot and then I saw "Preemptive Strike" [or maybe it was the other way around, either way all started late last year]. In any case, I started to put together this site [at least in my mind] way back then. There have been a lot of delays, and I don't even think it's done yet, but here goes anyway.
I can't agree that Data's and Riker's statements would really establish ALL the ships as being of Federation origin. If something like 60% of them are, that's plenty enough to meet the dialogue.
The Bajoran birdlike "assault ship" can of course be a generic UFP design if it has to. But it does have a kind of a "national" look to it, one that would do a lot of good in giving the Bajorans an identity of their own.
And even if Kira considers these ships to be impulse-engined in "The Siege", this alone is no reason to say they wouldn't have warp engines, too. Warp drive simply isn't relevant to "The Siege" - Kira is only worried about being outrun by impulse engines in the sublight combat.
Then again, the blockade fleet in "Shadows and Symbols" (or was that a B5 title?) around Bajor's moon is considered an "impulse fleet". It consists of freighters that would be useless if warp-incapable, and of these assault craft. So it would make sense for the assault craft to be impulse-limited.
And in "Shattered Mirror", don't we see Federation display panels inside the (presumably warp-capable) assault ship Smiley and Sisko are flying?
The Hideki doesn't look very fighterish to me in any of her appearances. She vastly outbulks every other "fighterlike" craft we've seen, including Chakotay's ship. We'd have to count the Klingon BoP as a fighter, too, if we included Hideki...
I also have reservations about applying the name "Peregrine class" to any specific design at this point, but that's another matter...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wasn't it a Peregrin Class transport?
We know one thing about this ship... it can land on the surface of a rocky planetoid.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
1, 5 and 10 seem to be the three Runabouts... but that isn't the scene from The Maquis Part II is it?
Andrew
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It's a Peregrine class "courier", whatever that means. And it can
a) match a Danube runabout's pursuit speed b) be piloted by a single person c) land (but takeoff is not confirmed)
And that's about it. We've never seen a ship identified as "courier" before, although Sisko mentions a Federation "auxiliary courier" or possibly "auxiliary carrier" making the attack run against two Cardassian ships in "Maquis I". And Chekov thinks Spock's vessel in ST:TMP could be "some sort of a courier".
Personally, I think a "courier" should be able to carry passengers and would have prominent engines and very humble armament. But with the Maquis upgunning their craft, there's no telling which one of them began life as a basically unarmed taxi cab, and which was an armed-to-teeth interceptor originally.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
It could look like the 'getaway' ship from "Starship Mine"! Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: 1, 5 and 10 seem to be the three Runabouts... but that isn't the scene from The Maquis Part II is it?
No this is still from Preemptive Strike... I don't have a single episode of DS9 on tape [wish I did though].
1, 5, and 10 are the Subimpulse ship, in the blurry blown up image used to number each of the vessels it looks like they might be a runabout or a large shuttle [Insurrection Scout, Type-12, Sovereign Yatch... etc], but the later close-ups go into great detail on each ship tracking their movements--- they really aren't runabouts...
quote:Originally posted by Time: (In my best British understatement voice)
Pretty damned impressive, sir...
(/In my best British understatement voice)
Then Later: I also have reservations about applying the name "Peregrine class" to any specific design at this point, but that's another matter...
(brit)Why thank you my good sir, thank you(brit)
As for that Peregrine bit, I think I emailed you about it sometime ago... what I eventually decided to do was go with the most used instead of a literal use of evidence [gee that sounds extremely legalistic]. Most people call that the Peregrine, I would probably get plenty more emails about not calling it the Peregrine than I would calling it the Peregrine... just be glad I didn't name the other three "classes" Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
YA HYA CHOUHADA !!! Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Regarding the Perigine,I've been told there was a scene in DS9 Change of Heart which calls it explictly a Peregine and it matchs the design seen in the later war episodes. I don't have it on tape so I can't confirm that though. The class is mentioned in The Changing Face of Evil in the backround chatter (Squadron # begin scouting or something to that effect) and of course What You Leave Behind
As for the Impulse ship wasn't Dax, through Tobins experiances, the only one who had the neccessary knowledge to help Kira fly it? To me that suggests that it isn't a Federation design(or at the very least thats it isn't a very current design)
The Insurrection scout seems to bear hull features similar to the Defiant, ie the nacelles , along with the cockpit, which seemed only to be able to fit Data, suggest that it's a single seat fighter (Considering that the orignal fighters were called Scouts along with the Federation reluctance to call a warship a war ship it fits that they would call it scout)
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
It IS bigger than any other shuttle from the feds, and any shuttle carrying internal photon torpedo launchers isn't exactly from the red cross, that's my policy.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm not sure if "Change of Heart" had a reference. The name Peregrine was uttered in "Heart of Stone" (and AFAIK nowhere else), and you or your source might be confusing the episode names. There were no craft on screen other than the standard runabout in "Change of Heart", and very little reason to mention other kinds of craft.
I'm surprised to hear that the final episodes would have had a reference to Peregrines in radio chatter. Do you mean they actually used the word "Peregrine"? Or just that they showed these interceptors and then had some radio chatter that mentioned "interceptors", "tactical wings" or somesuch?
Yeah, the SUB-impulse fighter from "The Siege" was something that Dax alone (out of the Federation heroes) could hope to fly. It may have been a newish Bajoran craft, or then a centuries-old Federation design kept in service by nobody else except the Bajorans. All we know for sure is that its basic tech was so old-fashioned that only Dax could handle it.
The larger winged ships that intercepted this sub-impulse fighter are the ones J calls "assault ships", and they are also often called "impulse ships" because they had impulse engines and the tiny fighter of Kira and Dax didn't (hence SUB-impulse). We don't know if they had warp or transwarp or some other type of engines in addition to impulse, though. Perhaps not.
Data's scoutship did seem to dedicate most of its volume to something else than passenger space. Then again, so did Picard and Worf's shuttle. Both of these craft had cramped cabins in relation to the outer dimensions. Neither of them seemed to have a door leading to the cabin, for that matter - the scout only had a floor hatch, the shuttle only had a transporter. Really awkward and "fighterlike" if you ask me.
Both designs would probably do well as fighters. The scout was able to rattle Rua'fo's big command ship, and the shuttle had that fancy aft-firing torpedo launcher (or whatever)...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Wow, that's a very thorough analysis, J! Nice job.
First, a minor addition to your article, in Chapter 2: the Peregrine-class fighters were also seen in the Big Battle in "What You Leave Behind." They were specifically referred to as fighters there, IIRC. They might have been given numbers rather than names, but it's been a while since I saw that episode.
I also agree with Timo's suggestion above that not all of the Maquis ships had to be Federation in design. Given that there were quite a few fighters there, it's probable that Data and Riker were making generalizations. If most of the ships attacking were Federation, then it wouldn't make as much sense for Data to say, "the attacking ships are Federation in design, all equipped with type-8 phasers and photon torpedoes... wait, there's one -- no, two -- ships of Bajoran design, and they're using type-7a phasers. Wait, there's also a...." See my point? Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Very nice work and a kudos for the thorough, in-depth analysis. Very interesting stuff.
Ahem, one small note, you have one of my images sir, without link or permission... That's alright though, no probs, but in future....
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
This is pretty trivial typo stuff, but in the description for chapter one it says, "Get out your notepods, they'll be a test at the end!" I assume you meant "notepads" and "there will," respectively. If not, what are notepods and how do they become a single test? Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Rick Sternbach (while still working on the show) told us that "Peregrine-class" was the designation that applies to the Starfleet fighters. While this was never explicitly established in any episode, all statements made onscreen DO back it up.
About the use of the word "courier," I think a courier would not be so much about carrying passengers than carrying messages or important documents, etc. IMO, this could easily be another role of the Peregrine design.
I also wanted to mention that the Maquis Raider is designated as Ju'day-class. (After set decorator [?] Penny Juday, who's married to Anthony Fredrickson.) This was stated in a previous issue of Star Trek: The Magazine, IIRC. It was used on a blueprint/schematic in an episode of VGR, probably "Repression."
I do not believe that the Bajoran Impulse Raider or Attack Ships are Federation designs. IIRC, they were designed specifically to be Bajoran vessels. But considering there are at least two other designs there (Peregrine and Ju'day) that are known (or assumed) to be Federation, I don't have a problem accepting Riker's statement as applying to only those.
Overall, a very nice analysis...
-MMoM Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sternbach didn't say that's what the fighters were, he said that's what he thought they most likely were. An important distinction, I think.
Also, this is neither here nor there, but:
quote: Chekov thinks Spock's vessel in ST:TMP could be "some sort of a courier".
In this case I think Chekov is speaking more towards the shuttle's specific purpose (or that of whomever was aboard it)at that moment, rather than any technical designation of the shuttle itself.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Ok... first off, someone mentioned how the Hideki really didn't seem like a fighter and if it was then so was the Bird of Prey. I agree, greatly. I think that the Bird of Prey as was shown in it's very small and cramped version from the movies would fit the job. Under the same arguement so does the Defiant--- and I suppose it does fit.
MinutiaeMan: "What You Leave Behind" now added to list.
The Red Admiral: I'm not sure what image you are talking about. All the images on the site came from sources I listed--- maybe you could tell me which one?
Ryan McReynolds: notepod changed to notepad, they'll = there will, as for the test, it was a joke about what I thought was an extremely hard part of the site to do the thorough analysis of the Ambush scene.
The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Ju'day reference added. shipschematics.net link fixed [you can understand the mistake can't you? ]
That updates me from the last few hours...
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Masao... yeah, you made me rush mine to the Flare folks. Yes, I fully admit that I was trying to one up you [don't think I did though].
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
LOL, J!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Masao, the rear of the Penguin Fighter (a subtle hint at the Peregrin? ) reminds me of something... is it the back of the Galileo shuttlecraft? What about the little... 'exhaust'? It reminds me of something. What was your inspiration. Maybe it wasn't even Trek... hmm.
Andrew
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Timo: Yes, Sorry you are correct the episode was Heart Of Stone and not Change of Heart. The ships that J lists as the Perigine where only called Fighters or Tac fighters (the most commanly referenced name that I know of) in WYLB. Of couse TAC (presumbly for Tactical) implies a short range craft lacking a warp drive,at least to me, which is of course wrong. As to the Sub-impulse ship I always got the feeling that it was something that the Bajorans had put together from salvage but I can't think why. The lack of back up and saftey systems maybe?
Regarding "The Maquis part II", doesn't Dax or Sisko state that the Maquis only have 2 long range shuttles with the capabillity to hit the Cardassian Depot. Then they turn out to be the Perigine class ships.
J In relation to the question of other races ships that may be fighters, have you considered the Romulan Scout? Going by Ex-Astris-Scientia's size charts she's the same size as the Assault ship and Admiral Jarok had no trouble piloting it all alone. Also I belive that the script for "Business as Usual" list the ship that the CRM-117 is tested on as a "Dopterain Interceptor" so there exists a number of alpha quad races which might use fighters making the use of fighters in Starfleet less unsual.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
J, it's okay, honestly, but it's the one I captured of the Peregrine from 'Pre-emptive Strike' for Trekmania:
Masao: Just read the Al-Burak/Swordfish/Puffin/Penguin (phew!) article and as usual it's excellent. I can't really find any major faults; I remember I was pushing for larger, more Defiant sized fighters but I think this balences the size/capeability issues very well. I like the M/AM cells. Only thing I would say is that I'd expect the fighters to have more atmospheric capeability.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Hunter: Yes... the Romulan shuttle fits it quite well. Perhaps the small Son'a craft from Insurrection. There is probably a dozen other examples of small craft shown that were armed or could be armed well enough for a fighter designation.
As for the lack of backup or safety equipment on the subimpulse ship, I look at that as more of a lack of willingness to buy the "optional" parts.
Red Admiral: I just wanted to be sure which one it was so I would know who I needed to have a word with But if you say so, I'll keep my Italian roots buried Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Andrew: Yup, I took the oval ports from the back of the Galileo shuttle. I'm figuring they've something to do with the impulse system. The silver pipe is some sort of intercooler or something, which I've used for other nacelles of that period.
Wraith: I was debating about how much intra-atmospheric capability to give the ships. But, I finally decided that having warp-drive ships swimming around in the thick soup of the atmosphere would be wasteful of their capabilities. Also a big reactor powerful enough for warp and the large nacelle would be sort of heavy to be lugging around. So, one of these days I'll have to design a specialized dropship/ground attack ship to use in the air. I based the size on that of modern-day fighters, like the F-15. Anything much larger and the crewman looked like ants standing next to the ship.
Is CRM-117 a "Dr. Strangelove" reference? You might remember that the CRM-114 is a coding/decoding device through which the bombers communicate with command base.
One last thing: What exactly is a fighter? Is this designation based on size or crew (both small), mission (attacking ships?), range (noninterstellar), performance (warp/nonwarp, fast, maneuverable?) or indepence of operations (carrier-based/tied to land bases or stations) or what? My ships are fighters because they're small and noninterstellar (so have to be carried), but some cannon fighters seem to be defined only on the basis of size.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Size, ability, and mission all play a part IMO... you can't single out one specific quality.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
For dramatic purposes, "fighter" is any spaceship or spacecraft that can be argued to behave like an aircraft more than like a seagoing ship...
Which means that the most important factors are maneuverability, cockpit design and relative size. Even a huge vessel can be considered a "fighter" if, in the space combat VFX, it twists and turns like a mad dervish on crack after having sat on a fire where a cactus was being roasted. AND if the vessel has a cabin with a view, meaning a big viewscreen or actual windows.
The Defiant qualifies very well. The Galaxy would, if it maneuvered more, and if there was an even larger ship type around that moved in a more gentlemanly fashion. Of course, the multi-crewed ships would be more like "bombers" than "fighters", but some pretty large multi-crew aircraft have been given a fighter designation in the past...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Definition of fighter: I've always interpreted it as a small, aircraft-like combat ship. I've never considered the Defiant a fighter myself, but I can certainly see why some people would, considering how it ran circles around the Lakota or the Regent's ship. And there's also the Jem'Hadar attack ship, which is sometimes called a fighter.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Wraith: I was debating about how much intra-atmospheric capability to give the ships. But, I finally decided that having warp-drive ships swimming around in the thick soup of the atmosphere would be wasteful of their capabilities. Also a big reactor powerful enough for warp and the large nacelle would be sort of heavy to be lugging around. So, one of these days I'll have to design a specialized dropship/ground attack ship to use in the air. I based the size on that of modern-day fighters, like the F-15. Anything much larger and the crewman looked like ants standing next to the ship.
Ok; good arguements there; also i just had a thought; I wonder what'd happen with a warp core breach in an atmosphere? ouch!! Look forward to the dropship/ground attack vessel. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Only, and I have not read every page of the Starfleet Museum, but; The Romulan War (as described there) does not seem to have involved much ground combat at all, if any.
Being able to fly around in the air and in space strikes me as being nothing but a liability, to be avoided if possible. To create a craft that can do both you have to compromise on both ends. Consider the space shuttle, which is fine (if expensive) for getting things into orbit, but which is not all the spacecraft it could be, nor is the most manuverable airplane ever constructed. This may not be a problem once you've got antigravs and super-forcefields, but neither of those things seem to be much beyond the concept stage in Masao's universe.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I avoided ground combat in the Romulan war because Humans supposedly had never seen a Romulan before 2260s. To have ground combat, but still maintain that Humans had no idea who Romulans were until the 2260s requires Braga-like contortions ("They were wearing helmets!" "We forgot to ask!") and a huge suspension of disbelief. Even little bits of tissue remaining after orbital bomardment would give Earth scientists some clue to the identity of the Romulans.
I've tried not to fall back to much on "exotic" technologies like antigrav. While they undoubtedly exist in pre-TOS, they sometimes make ship design too easy by allowing any sort of ship to be used in any way (like having half million ton spaceships land on a planet). Too much like magic.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Actually, that idea about a fighter that's designed for both atmosphere and space is a pretty good idea. A non-Trek example would be B5 -- those Starfuries were obviously made to be space-only with those amazing multi-vector thrusters, while the pirate groups that abounded in the first season all used those old delta-winged design that were supposed to be an air-space fighter. When the two ships met, the Starfuries had the advantage because of their much better in-space maneuverability and the weakness of the raiders' wings (which were basically useless in space, and basically hull projections that were just asking to be fragged).
Posted by The Mike Who Would Be Captain (Member # 709) on :
"They were wearing helmets!"
"We forgot to ask!"
LOL...
happened with the Ferengi too...
yeah, there probably can't be any ground combat in the Romulan wars.. i see it as a space territorial problem only anyway, and humans probably didnt have any colonies or outposts at that point anyway.. the whole premise is that, in ENTERPRISE time there was nothing out there from Earth yet, we were stil lcharting. so obviously we would have no planet surfaces to fight for. and the Roms probably didnt either, to make an assumption that simplifies the situation. just ships bouncing off each other and creating the boundary where the neutral zone ends up.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Oh we definately had colonies at that point in time... Whether we had colonies that were attacked is a matter of debate.
What more than likely happened is that the Romulans were attempting to expand their empire and all they found was Earth colonized worlds. Which means that the entire war was Romulans blowing up Earth populations and moving in until. Earth ships move into the area and bomb the Romulans back off while pushing back their military forces to the Neutral Zone.
Posted by The Mike Who Would Be Captain (Member # 709) on :
still, its easier to satisfy the 'we never saw them' requirement if the war was entirely fought in space.
waitaminnit! didnt balance of terror use the phrase 'entirely fought in space'? check your scripts and tapes, people.. the answer is there!
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
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