Today I was watching BoBW 1/2 and FC (College kid with LOTS of free time) and I was wondering, what would have happened if in BoBW instead of the Enterprise D they had the Enterprise E? Whould that have changed the outcome of anything? Would the "E" tech have enough firepower / technoshit to slow down the cube at all?
Sorry if this is borring, but I thought what the hell I should ask it. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I doubt the E-E had any weapons or capabilities the E-D wouldn't have had, save for one: the quantum torpedoes. And since we saw that even those couldn't blow up a Borg cube with a single shot, the Borg would undoubtedly simply have adapted to this weapon.
And while I'm sure the E-E can separate its saucer for emergency ditching, it's also obvious it cannot operate in "separated flight mode" - the secondary hull is a crippled wreck after the separation, completely lacking impulse propulsion and phaser armament. So Riker and Shelby couldn't have pulled off the trick that helped them rescue Picard and ultimately saved the Federation.
So probably giving Picard/Riker the E-E in "BoBW" would have doomed the entire UFP to assimilation!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I'd agree that the E-E doesn't bring much more to the fight other than the Q-torps (which we'd never heard of at that point of course). Supposed increases in phaser power wouldn't mean much.
I've sort of wondered in fact if the E-E is really a step up for Picard and co. or if Star Fleet just wanted to keep the Enterprise name so they put it on a somewhat more sturdy/less flashy ship in the hope that J-L won't bash it up as much.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Indeed. I'm not very fond of assumptions like "E-E is the fastest starship out there" or "E-E is the most powerful warship out there" or "ships named Enterprise are the cream of Starfleet". It is true that the E-E during "FC" was "the most advanced", according to LaForge's possibly a bit chauvinist opinion. But apart from that, we know little about how the Sovereigns fit into the Starfleet scheme of things.
When the E-D crashed, Starfleet had three problems to cope with:
1) How to replace the ship? 2) What to do to Picard? 3) What to do to the name Enterprise?
Obviously, Picard and the name went to the new Sovereign class ship. However, it's not at all sure that this ship was the replacement of the E-D in any practical sense. More probably, the E-D was replaced by the Galaxy class USS Insignificant, with Captain Nowan in command. And Picard was indeed sent to captain a very different ship with a very different mission.
As for what that mission might be... Well, there's one thing we know for sure it wasn't - namely, Borg-hunting. The E-E was in fact FORBIDDEN from fighting the Borg by Starfleet.
Sure, Picard said he was the problem, not the ship. But if that were literally true, then Starfleet would surely have ordered Riker to put Picard in an escape pod, launch him into the Romulan Neutral Zone, and take command of the ship and fly it to Earth ASAP...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by iam2xtreme (Member # 836) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The E-E was in fact FORBIDDEN from fighting the Borg by Starfleet.
Sure, Picard said he was the problem, not the ship. But if that were literally true, then Starfleet would surely have ordered Riker to put Picard in an escape pod, launch him into the Romulan Neutral Zone, and take command of the ship and fly it to Earth ASAP....
Ok I haven't laughed this hard for a long time............
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
This is a Tech question. You'll find it in S&T.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by iam2xtreme:
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The E-E was in fact FORBIDDEN from fighting the Borg by Starfleet.
Sure, Picard said he was the problem, not the ship. But if that were literally true, then Starfleet would surely have ordered Riker to put Picard in an escape pod, launch him into the Romulan Neutral Zone, and take command of the ship and fly it to Earth ASAP....
Ok I haven't laughed this hard for a long time............
Very much so.
Also a good point - if it really is one of only a handful of "ultra-fanboy-battleships" they aren't going to have it out scanning empty space during the big fight.
Tech analysis by plot point - what a hobby we have....
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by Toadkiller: I've sort of wondered in fact if the E-E is really a step up for Picard and co. or if Star Fleet just wanted to keep the Enterprise name so they put it on a somewhat more sturdy/less flashy ship in the hope that J-L won't bash it up as much.
I pretty much feel the same way. Although I otherwise like the Sovereign-class, it strikes me as being overall a cheap and inferior package to the Galaxy-class. The Galaxy-class would even have superior armament if it was equipped with qtorps and the latest phaser arrays. My opinion is that the Sovereign-class was never intended to be the successor to the Galaxy but instead, in the long term, might be a true replacement for the Excelsior-class.
Posted by Golden Tiger (Member # 586) on :
I think the Ent-E was still largely incomplete. At the beginning of First Contact, they did mention that the ship was on a shakedown cruse for ONE YEAR. Most apparently, it wouldn't be on such a cruse unless some major issues came up that needed fixed over and over again, as well as possible missing components and integration problems. Perhaps the Fed didn't think the ship could hold its' own very well in a Borg Battle.
Remember in the movie how a Borg landing party arrived in Engineering. Wouldn't they have been detected, many wonder... Well, what if that system was conviently screwing up again?
Also, in Engineering... rupture a single cooling conduit near the warp core and kill ALL ORGANIC MATTER in the area? That must have been some sort of flaw that was still being solved... Considering that the Ent-E lost the warp core in Insurrection, it would be interesting to see how it was redesigned, or if it was redesigned at all...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er...
"Starfleet has every confidence in the Enterprise..."
They didn't have any reason to lie to Picard, you know. I'm sure he has enough pull at HQ to get a straight, blunt answer. As for why the Borg weren't detected beaming in...they're the Borg. They more or less do what they please. No alarms went off when they beamed into engineering on the last Enterprise either.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
But also remember that the Enterprise-E managed to sustain multiple direct hits from the Borg weapons. Yeah, Starfleet probably improved the shield technology a bit since BOBW -- but there were also other ships getting swatted down like so many flies. (Yeah yeah, there's the old we-didn't-see-the-whole-battle excuse...)
However, I don't think that the Sovereign Class was supposed to be a replacement for the Galaxy, per se -- but rather a supplement in certain areas. Though the Enterprise-D was able to hold its own in most of the battles it fought, it seems that there were a few vulnerabilities in the design for combat missions. Maybe Starfleet commissioned a new "battlecruiser" class... originally in anticipation of a second Borg invasion, but there weren't enough ships built by DS9 to be in widespread service in the Dominion War battles (that we saw).
As for the "patrolling the Neutral Zone" problem... well... Admiral Hayes ordering the -E to stay at the NZ demonstrates the kind of tactical genius that explains why his ship was destroyed in Earth orbit... Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i agree that the Sovereign was in no way a replacement for the Galaxy. hell, the Sovie doesn't even have half the internal volume necessary for some of the Galaxy class missions! the ship definirely has a substantialy different mission. i think of it [the Sovereign class] as a Ship of the Line, where as the Galaxy is a true exploration ship that also has enough teeth to take on the enemy. Timo, where can we hear more about this intriguing Captain Nowan? Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:At the beginning of First Contact, they did mention that the ship was on a shakedown cruse for ONE YEAR.
It was Crusher that questioned if Starfleet felt the E-E needed more shakedown time. And Geordi that stated that they've been out for a year. Though it highly suggests they're still on their sharkedown cruise, it does not mean they actually were. You could interpret Crusher's line as meaning another shakedown cruise just as long or short as the previous.
And it was not Hayes' ship that was destroyed. He didn't have one. We saw Hayes later on in a Voyager episode. It was the flagship that was destroyed... though Riker said it was the admiral's ship. It was most likely another admiral.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, just because Hayes's ship was destroyed doesn't mean that Hayes himself couldn't have made it to an escape pod and spent the remainder of the battle staring uselessly out a window while Picard rode to his rescue...
Another reason why the Sovereign Class can't be a replacement for the Galaxy Class is because of the design time. Starfleet spent more than 10 years designing the nuts and bolts of biggest starship built... I don't think they could design and build a complete successor to the GCS in just a few short years -- especially given that the GCS was intended for a 100 year life span and there was no firm plan for a replacement to the GCS at the time that the TNG Tech Manual was published. (Not completely canon, I know...)
Of course, it's believable that Starfleet designed the Sovereign as a rush-job to fill their defensive gaps... and perhaps the Sovereign's smaller size with respect to the Galaxy hints at the compromises made to make build times faster?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I like the idea that it replaces the Excelsior class... although shouldn't the Ambassador have done that?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ambassadors are huge. Far too big to become glorified freighters of the future. Sovereigns are probably too big too, really, for such a role.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
In my view of the Ambasador class, the last ships made (sometime in the 2350's) would be technologically similar to the first nebula class ships. i'm certain that they were upgraded on a regular schedule, and even the first run ships (from the 2320's) would still be decent. i think that the Big A's would still be exploring out on the fringe. probably why we didn't see any of them during the Dominion War.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I like the idea that it replaces the Excelsior class... although shouldn't the Ambassador have done that?
The existing VFX alone makes it pretty clear that the Ambassadors didn't replace the Excelsiors. I do think that the Galaxy-class made the Ambassadors redundant though.
As for the Sovereigns being too big for an Excelsior replacement, the Sovereign volume is still a little smaller than the Ambassadors. In fact, the size relationship between the Excelsior and Sovereign-class would be very similar to between the Ambassador and Galaxy-class.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i don't think that the Galaxy class made the Ambassador redundant. it certainly replaced production, but the Ambassador class was, and presumably still is, a ship with high capabilities.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Agreed about the Ambie... I hope they were still out there on the edges of the Federation. Maybe they would eventually be phased out by the prevalence of the Galaxy class. Surely the Trek universe won't be 'under fire' from Dominion, Borg etc. etc. for the next century - and they (The Feds) Can get back to sending out their Galaxy class ships... (of course with much greater tactical resources than at the start of 2364).
Andrew
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I agree that the Ambassador is probably still out there... if the technology is a bit behind the cutting edge, it might not be assigned to the high-priority or high-risk areas for exploration, but its sheer size (despite being smaller than the Galaxy) means that it's still got to be useful for long-range exploratory missions.
And with Starfleet pulling back so many ships for defense duty, many Admirals may not want to totally abandon some of the outlying sectors that weren't under threat of attack, and so relegated the Ambassadors to patrol those regions.
Either way, just because we didn't see them doesn't mean they didn't operate elsewhere. Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
the Ambassador class is kind of my pet starship class, so indulge me for a moment. in my mind, the Ambassador was built in blocks:
block I: (mid 2320's-early 2330's) similar to the Enterprise-C, it is considerably behind the times now, despite upgrades. probably relegated to static defense and patrol duties. more than a match for a Galor, but not up to high threat duties.
block II: (mid 2330's-early 2340's) similar to theExcalibur and has stayed up to date enough that it would be out on mid threat exploration and would be cataloging areas that the Federation has been too but hasn't done systematic exploration of.
block III: (mid 2340's to early 2350's) the last group of Ambassador class ships. it shares much of the same tech as the first Nebula class ships (which would be entering production at the end of the Ambassador line), and would therefore have shared in similar upgrade cycles. i imagine that it would now have similar capabilties to modern Nebula class ships, though not quite as up to date. the block III ships would be capable of standard, high risk, exploration. afterall, some of them are only 25 years old and are of similar effectiveness to the Nebula class.
modern warships go through design upgrades throughout their entire manufacturing history, so i don't see why it would be any different for ships in Starfleet
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
My views 1. Miranda supplements Constitution 2. Excelsior supplements Constitution (though originally planned as replacement) 3. Ambassador supplements Excelsior and replaces Constitution 4. Nebula supplements Miranda and planned to eventually replace them 5. Galaxy supplements and acts as limited replacement of Ambassador 6. Sovereign supplements Excelsior and planned to eventually replace them.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Cheyenne Class takes over the Constellation Class? Or does the Prometheus... or is the Prometheus a whole new kettle of fish?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
why assume that a 4 nacelled ship has to be replaced by a 4 nacelled ship?
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Because it's cute that way. No, seriously.
Anyway, I've also had the notion that the Sovereign wasn't built to replace the Galaxy class (as fanboys and Starship Spotter, unfortunately, state). A class like the Galaxy with a huge design timeframe is replaced when not even one ship has reached it's designed max. life of 100 years? I don't think the USS Galaxy herself was even 20 years old when the Enterprise-E arrived on the scene.
In TNG, the Enterprise-D didn't do as much "seeking out new life, exploring strange new worlds, and going boldy where none have gone before" as one would think an "Explorer" type ship would do. In fact, she did quite a bit of ferrying, defensive patrolling, and just running back and forth within the Federation. So...
Perhaps this is what the Sovereign was meant to do? Take on the tasks of ferrying (she's got the speed), defensive patrolling (she's got the teeth), and just running back and forth (she lacks the resources to go out on an 8 year mission). And, while people always like to criticize the Galaxy class for having families, would anyone with a loved one want to go out for 8 years by themselves? With the exception of Picard's senior staff, I doubt every Starfleet officer who wants to see the unknown is single (and yes, I know about certain $spoilers$ for Nemesis).
So, now that Starfleet has their new Sovereign, the Galaxy class ships go back out like they were designed to do in the first place and explore the far reaches of, how fitting, the galaxy.
Posted by Starship Millennium (Member # 822) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ace: Perhaps this is what the Sovereign was meant to do? Take on the tasks of ferrying (she's got the speed), defensive patrolling (she's got the teeth), and just running back and forth (she lacks the resources to go out on an 8 year mission).
*snip*
So, now that Starfleet has their new Sovereign, the Galaxy class ships go back out like they were designed to do in the first place and explore the far reaches of, how fitting, the galaxy.
I totally agree. And suddenly I don't feel so crazy anymore... Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Oh, and to finally answer EdipisReks' question: Captain Nowan stars in the Jerry Oltion novel "Star Trek: Captain's Table: Star Trek: Where Sea Meets Sky". (The second "Star Trek" is there to specify this is a TOS-era contribution to the miniseries. Boy, the covers of those books got crowded....)
We also know the distinguished gentleman by another name, which isn't quite spoken out loud in the book.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
On the topic of class successors: How about Nova replaces Oberth?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Regarding the Sovereign being smaller than the Galaxy:
Doesn't the tech manual state that large portions of the Galaxies internal space are incomplete? A line which snuck into that season 7 episode where Picard snogged a man, I believe.
If so, and taking that to mean that even 7 years after launch there were still parts of the Galaxy unfinished, perhaps this implies that Starfleet realised that it simply didn't need a ship that big. Components wise, everything fit in nicely, and crew wise, everyone had plenty of space. Sure, you could make everyones quarters bigger, but that's fairly impractical.
Perhaps when designing the Galaxy the engineers were under a "make it really, really big" remit, after the higher-ups in Starfleet had gotten pissed off at one too many size comparisons with Star Wars ships (not that the Galaxy comes off much better anyway). When the Soverign was being designed, they realised that it would be much more cost effective to produce a slightly smaller ship with much less internal volume. A smaller crew could do the same job as a bigger crew, and the ships could be produced faster and maintained much more easily.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
the Galaxy class were being left unfilled to expedite completion for the war. they were to be completed as soon as possible. it wasn't a design philosophy change. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That's not even close to what he was talking about. In "Liaisons" (long before the Dominion War was anywhere near beginning), Troi tells one of the ambassadors that there are portions of the ship which are unfinished so that they can add in quarters or whatever as needed.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
except that he says "doesn't the tech manual state" which in this case seems to be referring to the DS9 tech manual, which states that some Galaxy class ships have incomplete sections in the saucer. seems to me he is talking about exactly the same thing as what i was talking about. unless, of course, Troi wrote a technical manual.
in terms of the E-D, i don't believe that there were any sections that were "unfinished". there were unfilled parts that were cordoned off for future expansion, but they were hardly "unfinished". is your closet unfinished just because it's empty?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Indeed. No possible way he could be referencing some sort of mythical "TNG" technical manual.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
the TNGTM does not talk about anything being "unfinished". it talks about the ship being modular, but not "unfinished". the DS9TM, on the other hand, does talk about the Galaxy class ships being left unfinished. logically, that means that PsyLiam was talking about the DS9TM. unless he just doesn't quite remember what it is exactly that he is talking about. but no, that's never happened before, has it? Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
Why cant we go by what the creators of the ship intended it to be?
The most powerful and advanced ship in Starfleet as of 2372.
I dont understand how all of you are trying to draw these incredibly long lines. It is stated that the Enterprise-E was the most advanced ship in the fleet. In no novelization, script, or even film do I see that LaForge was making a huge exageration when he said that.
We all know the Promethous is the most powerful and advanced right now, but its still a buggy prototype with Andy Dick as a EMH.
The Enterprise is the 'starring' ship of the Trek franchise for one reason -- it is supposed to be the most special and intresting ship in the fleet. We shouldnt need to have on-screen dialoug telling us that the Ent-E is the flagship. It goes without saying. Every Enterprise has been the Flagship. This is what the creator, writers, producers, ship designers intended.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
ok my two cents, give or take a dollar.
The Sovereign is the most advanced starship of 2372. Obviously.
But ships come in different types. The Prometheus is smaller, and designed for a lot of fucked up features that have little practical use outside of combat. Why anyone would assume this is naturally 'better' than a Sovereign or Galaxy, i don't know. Its a ship with a much different mission profile.
The same comparison goes forth for the Sovereign versus Galaxy argument. The Sovereign seems to be a cruiser, but the case might still be made for it as an explorer. Its fast, long range, well-armed but seems to be able to fulfill a wide range of exploratory and science endeavors. It doesnt seem to have the crew capacity, cargo capacity, embarked craft capacity of the larger Galaxy, but i believe it has more in the way of firepower and speed. probably, the Sovereign is designed to fulfill the fleet's cruiser requirement while the Galaxys are continuing their long range explorer designation.
on the question of succession, Starfleet probably has some ways of reclassifying ships for new purposes too. Many sources of semi-canon info (DS9 TM i believe) call the Excelsior an explorer, a mission type defined in the TNG TM. Ambassadors fall under the same classification of explorer. But by the time of TNG, at least in the altered timeline, an Ambassador is referred to as a cruiser in "Yesterday's Enterprise" dialogue. And the Excelsior certainly seems to not be in its explorer role, both visibly during the war, and in dialogue, like "Tin Man" where the Hood 'isn't one of the Galaxy boys, it hauls its butt back and forth between starbases' to paraphrase. The inference is that the Excelsiors have been relegated to patrol with the advent of new longrange explorers. i would definitely consider Excelsiors to be cruisers, Ambassadors and Galaxys to be explorers and Sovereigns to be heavy cruisers in the current fleet makeup.
btw, the "Liaisons" quote (not understanding your confusion there.. the source is the "Liaisons" episode, and the TNG TM is the tech manual Liam refers to..), IMO is referring to modular capability of the Galaxy, it can be outfitted with numerous different layouts that allow for adaptable mission profiles, this only makes sense for a ship with a 100-year design lifetime. it would be foolish to assume you would never need to add anything to that design.
as for the matter of the flagship: thats a political matter, it hardly has anything to do with the ships design. NX-01 was a scout almost, maybe a cruiser when they added the weapons, 1701 was a heavy cruiser, and the other E's seem to all be cruisers or explorers (depending on your source). you dont have to have a certain type of ship or meet a certain 'powerfulness quota' to be a flagship, you just are.
and of course the Galaxy program is continuing, the ships are 18 years out of the gate, and each spaceframe has a 100 year design lifetime. Just because they don't have an Enterprise among their ranks anymore doesnt mean anything about the class going away.
oh yeah, the TNG TM controversy about the 'next explorer' class.. they called it the Nova-class in the book, but i believe the chapter started off by saying the ASDB was a long way off from finalizing any plans for the next explorer class, so theres no reason accepting that name was assigned to a new class of plucky scoutship. onto their designs: people are saying they trashed them all to make the Sovereign.. i think the opposite. i think the design's philosophy presented in the TNG TM is proof that the Sovereign in NOT an explorer and has nothing to do with the explorer program. obviously, a 2372 launch date would need to allow for a decade or so R & D. i think the Sovereign was Starfleet's long awaited new cruiser class, and as such, got no mention in the TM's summary of the future of the explorer program. and those explorer ships types remain on the drawing board, probably in a preliminary stage at this point, with their new design objectives: smaller than the Galaxy, and more modular. and with a different name.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It's been a long while since I read the TNG tech manual, so I misremembered it as being "unfinished" rather than "left empty for future expansion". Woo, it has PCI slots.
But to rephrase my original argument, perhaps a few years they actually realised that all that extra space they'd left in the Galaxy just in case was a waste. After all, Excelsiors seem to manage fine with the same amount of space they had 100 years ago (less, if we add in the Enterprise-B) design. The refit Connie wasn't significantly bigger than the original. In fact, the only real instance I can think of of refitting resulting in a bigger ship is the not-real "All Good Things" Enterprise, and that was only done because TPTB wanted a big fuck-off gun on it.
There's also the chance that maybe, during the development of the Galaxy, Starfleet learned how to miniturise better. Certainly the Intrepid seems capable of most things that a Galaxy can do, with size being the only notable difference seen in 7 years of Voyager. By taking that into account, it's perfectly feasable that the Sovereign is just as powerful and capable as a Galaxy (however you quantify that) while still being a bit smaller.
As a side note, does anyone know why TPTB made the Sovereign smaller? They've usually stuck to a "bigger is better/newer" before, and I'm curious to know why that changed.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I really wish people would stop referencing the Tech Manuals as if they're canon fact.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
without the tech manuals the only info we have on these ship classes is that they are big and have lots of windows.
get over it.
i didnt bring the TMs into the discussion.. i just picked up the thread.
besides the basic argument can be made without the assistance or interference of the tech manuals. Galaxy & Sovereign = Two Different Ships. The Sovereign does not seem intended to be the same thing as the Galaxy. Similar, yes, in that the ships are multipurpose: fit the 'does pretty much everything' requirement of the fact that they are Enterprises. but not the same. they rethought a few things along the way.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by O Captain Mike Captain: without the tech manuals the only info we have on these ship classes is that they are big and have lots of windows.
That's quite simply BS.
quote:i didnt bring the TMs into the discussion.. i just picked up the thread.
I never said you did. My last post wasn't specifically directed to you.
quote:besides the basic argument can be made without the assistance or interference of the tech manuals. Galaxy & Sovereign = Two Different Ships. The Sovereign does not seem intended to be the same thing as the Galaxy. Similar, yes, in that the ships are multipurpose: fit the 'does pretty much everything' requirement of the fact that they are Enterprises. but not the same. they rethought a few things along the way.
Well, yes, I already agreed to that earlier in the thread.
I'm just sick of comments like "a Galaxy-class ship is built to last a 100 years" and "it took 20 years to design the Galaxy-class" and all other such "facts" that are pulled from the Tech Manual's arses, yet are inconsistent with actual canon.
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
Holly SHIT you are putting way too much into it. I am looking at this from a realisitic stand point. The Enterprise-E is the HERO SHIP. I can do anything a script calls for. Including exploring, fighting, and so on.
The fact that its the flag ship has nothing to do with its strength, it has to do with the fact that the show is ABOUT this ship. The movies are based around this ship. Tech manuals have obviously clouded any conclusions you can draw about the entire point.
The fact is. The Enterprise-E is THE starship of Star Trek TNG right now. Its the Enterprise. THE Enterprise. It can do anything the story wants it to.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Generally, though, I'd say a starship is better story material if it's defined by what it *cannot* do... If it cannot defeat an enemy of size X or armament Y, if it cannot infiltrate territory Z, if substance A is beyond its scanning abilities, if pursuit speed B is the absolute maximum, etc.
So far, few things have been beyond the abilities of any of the hero ships. Top speed is always topped when need be. Weapons, shield or sensor efficiency can be raised by a trick-of-the-week. It gets pretty tiresome eventually.
And the "the E can do anything and everything" rule also makes the original question of this thread irrelevant. No matter whether Picard flew the E-D, the E-E or the NX-01, or the CV-6 for that matter, he'd be equally capable of defeating the Borg. If despite everything the ship *cannot* outgun or outrun the enemy, then the enemy will have a fatal weakness tailored so that that the ship *can* exploit it.
I for one would like to see a plot where technology utterly fails our heroes, and where the enemy triumphs because of it. Space is big, there's room for setbacks there. Losing isn't the end of everything. As far as we aren't speaking of the Borg.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: I'm just sick of comments like "a Galaxy-class ship is built to last a 100 years" and "it took 20 years to design the Galaxy-class" and all other such "facts" that are pulled from the Tech Manual's arses, yet are inconsistent with actual canon.
exactly which of those are inconsistant with the canon? did braga write an episode of TNG that was entitled Lets Fuck the Technical Manuals that i missed?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
"Threshold". Although that was VOY.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
threshold certainly never never never counts.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
the fact remains that there is nothing disproving that the Galaxys took 20 years to plan (not build, huh?).. and that their spaceframes are rated to last 100 years.
the facts, devised by those who designed most of the TNG tech, are perfectly consistent with onscreen canon.
besides if theres another Trek that takes place in the future of the TNG era, you can probably bet the Galaxy models and mesh will be reused for a long time, just like the Excelsior and Oberth and Miranda have seen 80+ years of service. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo:
I for one would like to see a plot where technology utterly fails our heroes, and where the enemy triumphs because of it. Space is big, there's room for setbacks there. Losing isn't the end of everything. As far as we aren't speaking of the Borg.
"Q Who" maybe?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
Liam, did you miss the "As far as we aren't speaking of the Borg"?
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
If we stick with the assumption that the Wolf 359 ships are predecessors to the Galaxy-class, even 20 years including design time seems a bit long for the USS Galaxy to be completed. The Nebula-class in particular was already very similar to the final product of the Galaxy-class. Although I suppose we can include the Wolf 359 designs as a component/portion of the Galaxy-class design time.
As for the 100 year thing, in "All Good Things" why did the future Riker mention that he had to fight for the Ent-D not to be decommissioned? The ship wouldn't have been more than 30 or so years old -- not even close to the supposed 100.
And although we see still see plenty of Mirandas and Excelsiors flying about, they have relatively high registrations (usually 3xxxx and 4xxxx) indicating that they're not particularly old builds.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by EdipisReks: Liam, did you miss the "As far as we aren't speaking of the Borg"?
I believe he meant "Losing isn't everything" except when the Borg are concerned, rather than "I would like this to happen", except where the Borg are concerned.
I am willing to be corrected though. Finnish boy?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i think you're right, Liam. i'm just so used to correcting you that it has become a habit .
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax:
As for the 100 year thing, in "All Good Things" why did the future Riker mention that he had to fight for the Ent-D not to be decommissioned? The ship wouldn't have been more than 30 or so years old -- not even close to the supposed 100.
There's also the fact that even within the context of the episode the Enterprise-D was still pretty much hardcore. With the refit Connie we have little real idea of how well it performed against other Empire's ships, seeing as it twice went up against a Klingon BOP and twice ended up losing (sort of). The refit Enterprise-D though managed to tear through two brand new Klingon ships without breaking a sweat, and also had a cloak and the ability to go "really fast".
I take Riker's line to mean that perhaps the ship was really badly damaged at some point in the future-past-that-no-longer-exists, and Starfleet decided to decomission it rather than repair it. Super Billy Riker overturned that due to his powers of beard, or something.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: As for the 100 year thing, in "All Good Things" why did the future Riker mention that he had to fight for the Ent-D not to be decommissioned? The ship wouldn't have been more than 30 or so years old -- not even close to the supposed 100.
who knows what kind of damage the thing had taken? afterall, it's career put it into danger the whole time. a 100 year theoretical lifetime does no good if the frame is all cracked and sucky.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I suppose the future D's potential decommissioning could of been because of severe battle damage (I'll admit it's a good explanation), but I was under the impression that the ship was going to be retired mainly due to age, with damage being a secondary reason (same as with the Ent-A?). Instead, Riker ordered the kick-ass refit which included the mega-phaser, third nacelle, and many other enhancements to bring the ship up to date/spec. We're looking at a major refit -- not the same magnitude as TMP refit but bigger than anything else we have ever seen or know of (IIRC).
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
the TMP refit was more extensive that just pasting on a new cannon and greeblies.. they re-skinned the ship, and then hollowed it out and refilled it for good measure.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
my opinion is that they built a new ship, left one bolt hole unfilled and then used a bolt from the original Enterprise. they then said "whoops, refit".
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
i'm willing to pretend its the same spaceframe anyway. just a lot of new stuff. perhaps we've never seen it, but the bulk of the crew quarters retained their TOS appearance. that would be a creepy thing to find walking through a doorway.
'They replace all the hull plating and give Admiral Kirk some fancy wood plated cabinets and a *whoosh* transparent door, but i'm stuck in the quarters where they never even replaced the vent switch some ensign broke 20 years ago. there's a food tray duct taped over it, with a note about bloodsucking gas clouds. and what's with this orange carpeting with the gold inlay?! and the blue and red chainlink grating?'
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
nm
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i hoped they remembered to remove the bloodsucking gas clouds during the refit.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by O Captain Mike Captain: the TMP refit was more extensive that just pasting on a new cannon and greeblies.
I already said TMP refit was more extensive but, contrary to what the DS9TM suggests, you can't just paste on a third nacelle and expect it to work. The future D almost certainly had a new warp core and other internal mods.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by O Captain Mike Captain: ' and what's with this orange carpeting with the gold inlay?! and the blue and red chainlink grating?'
It's still roughly 6 billion times better than the TMP colour-scheme.
"Colours? We don't need no stinking colours. We have PASTELS now! Take that!"
Posted by 78stonewobble (Member # 922) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: However, I don't think that the Sovereign Class was supposed to be a replacement for the Galaxy, per se -- but rather a supplement in certain areas. Though the Enterprise-D was able to hold its own in most of the battles it fought, it seems that there were a few vulnerabilities in the design for combat missions. Maybe Starfleet commissioned a new "battlecruiser" class... originally in anticipation of a second Borg invasion, but there weren't enough ships built by DS9 to be in widespread service in the Dominion War battles (that we saw).
As for the "patrolling the Neutral Zone" problem... well... Admiral Hayes ordering the -E to stay at the NZ demonstrates the kind of tactical genius that explains why his ship was destroyed in Earth orbit...
First of all Ill have to excuse my Trek newbie'ness (and offcourse my english). With that said Ill have to partly agree with minutia man regarding the role of the Sovereign class.
I don't think Star Fleet would be risking a Galaxy class or even a Nebula class ship in battle. I say this on the basis of their size (and probably associated cost) and the fact that they werent really designed as combat wessels (room for a 1000 civilians on a galaxy?).
So in my interpretation of the Sovereign in the big star fleet scheme of things is:
An explorer stripped of civilian necessities.
An updated explorer regarding "speed" powergeneration and weaponry.
A cheaper and more expendable design compaired to the multipurpose do it all expensive top of the line galaxy.
But I really dont think that the term explorer works for the Sovereign class. I do think the term battlecruiser is more fitting.
The pre dominion / borg starfleet perhaps planned on the galaxy / nebula explorers playing a part in the rare crisis'es needing heavy firepower.
Now they instead plan on the Sovereign providing the heavy firepower in these situations. Letting the expensive explorers ... uhm ... explore...
Anyway just my 5 �re on the subject...
PS: m-man as u can see I can now post... No more email "spamming" you Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
quote:Originally posted by 78stonewobble:
I don't think Star Fleet would be risking a Galaxy class or even a Nebula class ship in battle. I say this on the basis of their size (and probably associated cost) and the fact that they werent really designed as combat wessels (room for a 1000 civilians on a galaxy?).
An explorer stripped of civilian necessities.
An updated explorer regarding "speed" powergeneration and weaponry.
mmm... well i think theres a really good funny there "wessels"... Chekov
well to my recolection the galaxy only had a populus of 1024 crew + civilians.
As seen in "insurrection" there are civilians onboard the E-E although i will give it to you that there are probable a quite smaller amount than on the E-D.
Considering that speed means nothing...(warp 5 speed limit) is it just me or is WARP 5 WAY TO SLOW
Posted by Herr Kapitan Mike (Member # 709) on :
i didnt understand anything either of you said.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I think the warp speed limit had been dropped after development of the Defiant and Intrepid classes. Those classes had improved warp drives and older ships had probably been refitted with similarly improved warp drives.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: And although we see still see plenty of Mirandas and Excelsiors flying about, they have relatively high registrations (usually 3xxxx and 4xxxx) indicating that they're not particularly old builds.
Well maybe they are 'new' ships but old space frames? When DOES the registry get assigned.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dax: I suppose the future D's potential decommissioning could of been because of severe battle damage (I'll admit it's a good explanation), but I was under the impression that the ship was going to be retired mainly due to age, with damage being a secondary reason (same as with the Ent-A?). Instead, Riker ordered the kick-ass refit which included the mega-phaser, third nacelle, and many other enhancements to bring the ship up to date/spec. We're looking at a major refit -- not the same magnitude as TMP refit but bigger than anything else we have ever seen or know of (IIRC).
I would say that the ship was REFIT/UPGRADED to MATCH the ships of the time. Not that it was some mega-starship. And the Klingon ships it encountered may have been the normal Klingon ship for the time. Or altered 20 year old Negh'vars.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by O Captain Mike Captain: i'm willing to pretend its the same spaceframe anyway. just a lot of new stuff. perhaps we've never seen it, but the bulk of the crew quarters retained their TOS appearance. that would be a creepy thing to find walking through a doorway.
'They replace all the hull plating and give Admiral Kirk some fancy wood plated cabinets and a *whoosh* transparent door, but i'm stuck in the quarters where they never even replaced the vent switch some ensign broke 20 years ago. there's a food tray duct taped over it, with a note about bloodsucking gas clouds. and what's with this orange carpeting with the gold inlay?! and the blue and red chainlink grating?'
LOL! That would be freaky! heheh you step in, and there is the mood lighting. A woman enters and this music starts!
You accidently hit a panel and for some reason a Tantalus Screen appears! Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Well maybe they are 'new' ships but old space frames? When DOES the registry get assigned.
Huh, what are you saying? I doubt Starfleet would refurbish previously mothballed ships and send them out as something 'new'. Even if they did, why wouldn't the ships retain their old registry number?
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I would say that the ship was REFIT/UPGRADED to MATCH the ships of the time. Not that it was some mega-starship. And the Klingon ships it encountered may have been the normal Klingon ship for the time. Or altered 20 year old Negh'vars.
Agreed.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But it still took them out pissingly easy. Two altered twenty year old Negh'Vars going up against one altered 30 year old Galaxy class, you'd think that the battle wouldn't be so one-sided. Especially considering that Picard would usually panic about going up against two Galor class ships and similar. In any case, the refit Enterprise-D clearly outclassed two Klingon ships that were almost certainly newer than itself.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
True. I suppose the future D's success against the Klingon ships would partly be due to the unusual surprise approach but mostly the mega-phaser.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
without the tech manuals the only info we have on these ship classes is that they are big and have lots of windows.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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![[Razz]](tongue.gif)