It occured to me that - no matter if you think FC's torpedo launcher mistake was a mistake or not - the class must have another launcher. The Leeds/Lexigton/Endeavour - whatever it was - fired that torpedo from some 'hidden' launcher somwhere above the deflector, below the saucer, but there is no evidence that there really is a launcher. But if you take into concideration that the Nebula's pod is modular and that the Phoenix configuration (the dish) wouldn't have a torpedo launcher at all in this case - how did Phoenix destroy the cardassian freighter in "The Wounded"? The tactical display on the main screen revealed that Phoenix fired torpedos at the cardassian ship. Where did they come from?
Furthermore, if the deflector-launcher exists (or is just a special equippment of dish-variant Nebulas and the FC-ship was refitted shortly before the battle begun), why did they place it above the deflector? This has to be the most useless position for a launcher on the whole ship - you can just fire at ships directly in front, slightly below your ship. So could the mysterious launcher be located in front of the captain's yacht, Sovereign-style? At least this would make a little more sense.
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
The USS Melbourne proto-Nebula comes to mind as another problem ship.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If you ask me, the best place for the nebula's forward launcher would be where the auxilery deflector currently is.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
My theory is that almost all Nebula's deattachable pod varients contain at least one torpedoe launcher, since even a science pod would need something to launch probes with. The tactical pods simply support larger launchers like those onboard the Galaxy, while normal pod support something more practical and economic.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Those pods are gigantic affairs, larger than TOS starships. It would be a major engineering problem to *invent enough stuff to fill them with*!
I'm sure there could be twenty big torpedo launchers in the Phoenix pod, and still plenty of room for subspace scanners or whatnot. The problem lies in the absence of visible torp launcher muzzles in the pod. But "The Wounded" never gave us a high-res view, so we can postulate muzzles wherever we want...
Still, I think it's a good idea to say the Nebulas have secondary hull launchers. And thus, I'm perfectly happy with a torp-less Phoenix pod. The "FC" VFX is lamentable in ruling out some logical locations for the launchers, but one atop/in place of the captain's yacht would be fine.
Indeed, I'm sure Starfleet could install small torp launchers all over the ships if needed. Weapons on Starfleet ships are an afterthought anyway. The only interesting issue is whether a large number of weapon emplacements is better than a small number... Why would it be, when multi-emplacement ships virtually never fire their weapons simultaneously?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I'm going to look at the pictures of the Nebula Class physical models I have. But still, I think there is enough room to place a launcher above the deflector without hitting the Captain's Yacht, something the Nebula Class definately got from the Galaxy Class.
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: I'm going to look at the pictures of the Nebula Class physical models I have. But still, I think there is enough room to place a launcher above the deflector without hitting the Captain's Yacht, something the Nebula Class definately got from the Galaxy Class.
Michael,
I am in complete agreement with Timo and you. Just look at Voyager with its freakish torpedo launcher setup.
Later! Art
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Checking both the studio models of the Nebula and Intrepid classes, I see no problem of the Nebbie having a torp launcher in its very short neck above the main deflector. A launched torpedo would barely just miss the captain's yacht. And the forward torp launchers on the Intrepid class have full clearance. There's nothing blocking the line of sight (including the aerowing shuttle) from a forward view of the model.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Torpedoes do not travel in straight lines! And on the Voyager model, you can see that the launchers are in fact anted DOWNWARDS by 5-10 degrees, increasing the safety margin...
Mark
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Furthermore, if the deflector-launcher exists (or is just a special equippment of dish-variant Nebulas and the FC-ship was refitted shortly before the battle begun), why did they place it above the deflector? This has to be the most useless position for a launcher on the whole ship - you can just fire at ships directly in front, slightly below your ship.
torpedoes move around a lot, and ship distances are (despite what is sometimes seen) very long. torpedoes would have plenty of ability to hit targets very far from their initial firing vector.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I've looked at many schematics and pics of Voyager and the forward torp launchers do not seem to be slanted down. But believe what you will. I don't want to start a big debate about this.
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
look under the saucer where it meets the deflector, there is an obvious square module, in First Contact, the torpedoes come form that location. Mystery solved Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This would be somewhere in the area blacker than the blackest thing ever? Easily discernable!
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
bah, you need eyes
ok here, I did the hard work for you
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So somewhere within the pitch black oval, then. Gotcha.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Silly newbie! I enhanced that image and it's just the short neck the Nebbie has. It's just in a lot of shade! There are no notches or holes to suggest they modified the model in that area.
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
hmm, seems you are right, it is part of the neck, stupid Studio Model makers, they could have at least shoved a launcher port in there with it, grrrr
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Regardless, I think we've proven now that there IS space there for a launcher that can fire uncontested.
Mark
Posted by Siwiak (Member # 842) on :
Just remember that the Nebula model has gone through a good deal of changes, and it is possible somebody decided to poke a hole in there for a launcher tube. Remember how in TNG they ended up gluing on more tractor emitters and what not to the smaller, but more detailed Enterprise-D when they realized they needed the ship to do something that the original specs apparently wouldn't allow?
Also, as somebody pointed out, torpedoes in Star Trek are not really torpedo weapons, but more like our modern-day missiles. They have the ability to track a target long after they leave the launcher... which makes sense, seeing that they have a range 4,050,000 kilometers (DS9 TM). That's like going to the moon and back more then 5 times if you need to get a feel for the distance. Given how far apart starships are in a battle, the only time your torpedo will fly straight out the launcher in a straight line for the target is if you're right behind it and nobody moves.
A limited firing arc is a moot point when the object being launched can change course and guide itself towards a target. ST:VI does have a memorable scene with a torpedo doing that...
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
However, the Leeds was just a relable of the Farragut. And you can see there are no notches or holes in the neck. After the Leeds, the Nebbies were CGI. The CGI model could have had a notch or hole in that area, but most likely the model was made with elements of the Galaxy CGI model rearranged (the Galaxy's torp laucher was further up in the neck and would have been taken out when creating the Nebbie) with only the weapons pod and support strut as new parts.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Yes but in the Star Trek universe, the Nebula Classes could have recieved an extra foward launcher above the main deflector dish.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I'm not saying thats not possible. I'm just saying the models don't show any evidence of launchers. That being said, I say the launchers are there. No one bothered to update the models because they probably thought they would never need to fire a torpedo out of there and if they did need to, it probably wasn't going to be a close up shot... which it wasn't.
quote:Also, as somebody pointed out, torpedoes in Star Trek are not really torpedo weapons, but more like our modern-day missiles. They have the ability to track a target long after they leave the launcher... which makes sense, seeing that they have a range 4,050,000 kilometers (DS9 TM). That's like going to the moon and back more then 5 times if you need to get a feel for the distance. Given how far apart starships are in a battle, the only time your torpedo will fly straight out the launcher in a straight line for the target is if you're right behind it and nobody moves.
Which is why I find the idea of slanted or angled -whichever way torpedo launchers to be stupid. Why make the effort to make a launcher like that when you can keep it straight and when it fires a torpedo, the torpedo can move away from the ship or whatever and go find its target.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ah, the Revelle-Monogram USS Voyager model has the forward launchers pointed downward unlike the shooting model which has them pointed straight foward. I should know since I corrected the launchers on the plastic model.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
In that picture above... has anyone noticed that the nacelle pylons don't connect horizontally to the 'neck' area... they slightly curve up into the saucer section! A Saucer-placed warpcore?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It seems to me they curve more *forward* than up, if you understand what I mean. I still think there's a separation plane between the top surfaces of the nacelles and the bottom of whatever cut-in the saucer has.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
I agree, the pylons curve fwd rather than up (it's a trick of the eye). They're basically just the Galaxy pylons turned upside down.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ahh yes. I see it now. The phaser strip stopping where it does and being fewed at that angle plays a trick on the eye.
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