Since the original post no longer seems to exist, I've made a new one. But it's the same topic, the one you've all been waiting for...yes, it's humongous, it's stupendous, it's.......
****the reply from Robert Legato!!!!!****
Yes, after three months, I finally received a reply from him about the discarded Wolf 359 battle scene from "Emissary," specifically in reference to the Gage. To paraphrase his reply:
He seems to remember that the Gage was a reuse of the wrecked version of the Reliant from STII, with some modifications, (i.e. different engines), or a ship based on the Reliant design with different engines (perhaps a sister ship to the Saratoga). Just as when Okuda stated when the DS9 Companion came out that there weren't any new models built, Legato and/or his staff apparently just recycled old models, such as the wrecked Reliant, the Nebula Melbourne, and perhaps the Kyushu (since CaptainMike's photo showed tha the model still existed to be used for VFX test shots of DS9).
As for the scene itself, apparently the story behind it was that the original shot was much faster-paced than the later bridge scenes made it out to be (although I thought the version shown was quite fast-paced myself...). Ships must have been flying past the camera at breakneck speed, because TPTB decided that it was too fast and asked Legato to remove the other ships and fast whip pans and the like.
That's all he remembers. And frow the way he was talking, I don't think he even had access to the footage himself, so unless someone else does, I don't think we'll be seeing it on DVD. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: the Gage was a reuse of the wrecked version of the Reliant from STII, with some modifications, (i.e. different engines), or a ship based on the Reliant design with different engines
Ah nuts.
Hey, at least the Rigel-Class is still a mystery and will always be since they never built it. Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Until we can find the footage and analyse it, I think we can still continue with the Apollo design Reverend. "If it ain't on screen it ain't canon," as I suppose they say. Also, I think many are sick of the endless Reliant modifications shortcuts. I'd be happy to disregard this vision of the Apollo altogether. No more Miranda variants, dammit!
(oh, and good work Dukhat)
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Plus the fact that it's very likely the wrecked Reliant was not re-labeled or re-regged as "Gage NCC-11672" at all. Okuda didn't remember making labels for a ship of that name, and I think Legato's speech in the DS9 Companion about making sure the ships were labeled with the names of the BoBW ships was probably just BS. Plus, I doubt that there was any correlation in Legato's mind between the model used to represent the Gage, and the term "Apollo class," just as I'm sure there wasn't any correlation in Greg Jein's mind between his Vulcan T'Pau model and the term "Apollo class." Even if the model was given new engines as Legato suggests, I also would probably be of the thought that the Apollo class remain a conjectural design, for all of you guys to design a better ship.
[ October 22, 2002, 13:17: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Reliant with different nacelles. Galaxy, probably. Maybe I don't want to see that. Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
This is something that someone here made awhile ago. It shows an Excelsior and a Miranda with NO nacelles. It also shows the Miranda with Yeager and Norway nacelles. This should bug Kyle a little. http://lobotomy.pleh.net/~flareupload/uploads/302/funnyexcel.jpg Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
*deleted double post*
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Um, perhaps my ship geekiness bears a slightly different stripe than other people's, but why so glum? Very cool news.
Now, the next mission has to be to convince the DS9 DVD people to bust into the vaults and get this stuff.
Posted by O Capped In Mic Capped In (Member # 709) on :
quick question which may influence how we interpret the Mirandaness of the Apollo in the future: Was the Gage, made out of the wrecked Reliant, depicted as an active vessel, or as wrckage. I assume that it would be missing a warp nacelle per the last scenes of TWoK, and have severe roll-bar and upper hull damage. If it was shown in this regard, it would be easy to interpret its original features as being very un-Mirandalike.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or we can still insist the Gage was an Apollo, with a low registry and thus probably an early design.
Which means there's nothing wrong with it being a Miranda derivative. In fact, it's a welcome addition to the family of TOS movie era ships, a case very similar to the Soyuz class.
As long as it doesn't have Galaxy type warp engines...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
If this was made up from parts of the destroyed Reliant model used in the Mutara battle scene, then we've seen some of it in the second season TNG DVD extras. It didn't look modified to me though.
Is there another model? These parts don't all look the same scale to me either.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Is that a fair-dinkum photo that first link!?! The arm in it makes the size of the model... HUGE!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's just the close-up part for the "exploding Inpulse Crystal" scene in TWOK (IMHO). Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: This is something that someone here made awhile ago. It shows an Excelsior and a Miranda with NO nacelles. It also shows the Miranda with Yeager and Norway nacelles. This should bug Kyle a little. http://lobotomy.pleh.net/~flareupload/uploads/302/funnyexcel.jpg
Yeah, that was me, from a thread about why they never seemed to Connie-refit-ify the old TMP-era ships.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
Yep, that was fair dinkum, mate. The body of the model which the roll bar and nacelles were connected to must have been used for the Gage, which might be why that wasn't with those parts. Maybe it's in storage somewhere else?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Wasn't there a photo of the damaged Reliant model in the Magazine a few months ago?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Dukkie, I don't suppose you'd consider mailing Legato again and inquiring on the new issues that have come up, perhaps try to pump him (gently and politely, of course) for a few more details, would you? To clear up these issues that have been proposed such as:
-What kind of different engines? Galaxy or something else? -Was the model actually re-labeled as the Gage? -Was it just used in a damaged state or were parts of the model restored? (IIRC it was just the Reliant's warp nacelle that was blown off, wasn't it? So perhaps all they had to replace were the nacelles?) -Any more info in general about modifications made to the ship.
I'd sure like to hear the story go down in the records as a bit more than the rather nebulous statement "it was based off the Reliant..."
-MMoM Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I suppose I could, but I'm 99.9% sure that he'd either not reply back to me because he doesn't know, or that he'd reply back to me telling me he doesn't know. Considering the fact that it took him three months to reply in the first place, and that he basically told me all he knew, I doubt there'd be any use pumping him further for info he doesn't remember anyway. His own reply was pretty vague at that; i.e. if I had mentioned the ship's name as being Tolstoy instead of Gage, he might have believed that that was the ship the Reliant stood in for.
Perhaps trying to contact someone who actually might have done the scavenging for old models, say, Gary Hutzel, might be a better solution, although I emailed Hutzel about this and never got a reply. Okuda was the one who gave us the most reliable info, and even he didn't have much to say.
Keep in mind that the whole reason I tried contacting him was that I had a belief that he had built a new, previously unseen model for the Gage. Now that that is apparently not the case, I am under the opinion that, damaged Reliant or not, the Apollo class should still be considered a conjectural design. Hell, if we want ships, at least we got to see the fourth Excelsior study model recently.
Here's Legato's reply, if you're interested (spelling errors corrected by moi):
"Dear Mark, All I remember of the Gage was that it was most likely the Reliant from the features (Trek 2). As for the discarded footage the true story is that we designed a much faster paced scene in the battle than the interior bridge scene would suggest. We shot this scene first and when the live action was edited it was quite a bit slower and we had to go back and pull out the fast action bits to match. Essentially we slowed up the scene by removing the elements of speed. Other ships and fast whip pans and the like. It was unfortunate since we thought it was a much better opening for the new series. If the Gage was not the Reliant than it was based on the design with different engines. We re-cycled the ships a lot. That's all I remember. I hope it helps."
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I see. Pity we can't find out more, but at least that urban legend about an Ambassador kitbash has been dispelled...
I suppose you might try writing Hutzel again, perhaps he was just busy at the time you sent the previous query and never got 'round to replying and in the interim has forgotten. Captain Kyle had some nice correspondence with him about that mysterious calendar Galaxy a while back...
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Whatever it is, he expects you to know about it ("the design" as opposed to "a design"). He also says that the result might've been based on this design.
So if it wasn't a plain Miranda like he initially theorized (and we know they had made a couple of them for the Saratoga explosion shot):
1) Maybe Legato thought the additions to the Soyuz-class were different engines, and the Gage was a Soyuz with the kind of slight modifications we've observed on that Ambassador-class ship and the Saratoga.
2) Maybe he meant the Constellation-class, which is kind of similar to the Reliant but has different engines, and the Gage was basically a Constellation with slight modifications.
Given that the other ships in the scene were rather commonplace, the Gage was probably one of the familar designs: Miranda, Soyuz, Oberth, Constellation -- plus or minus a rollbar or an impulse-deflection crystal, so to speak.
Also, I see no problem with such a design being Apollo-class, especially given the Soyuz/Miranda relationship, the Danube/Yellowstone relationship, the B'Rel/K'Vort relationship, the Yeager/Intrepid relationship etc. Even in the real world, ships of different classes sometimes look radically different; sometimes they don't.
Let's not be simplistic, and especially not assume that just because the ships in the graveyard were unusual, Apollo must be unusual and unseen likewise. If we look at the various fleets as being fair samples of Starfleet (and why not?), the balance of probability is that most of the Wolf 359 ships were the usual kind we've seen in the Dominion War and other battles -- Excelsiors, Mirandas, Nebulas, Akiras, Steamrunners -- with a few unusual designs here and there. Hence, Legato was right not to invent a lot of new designs specially for the battle.
Boris
[ October 23, 2002, 20:33: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:1) Maybe Legato thought the additions to the Soyuz-class were different engines, and the Gage was a Soyuz with the kind of slight modifications we've observed on that Ambassador-class ship and the Saratoga.
2) Maybe he meant the Constellation-class, which is kind of similar to the Reliant but has different engines, and the Gage was basically a Constellation with slight modifications.
1. Highly unlikely that he would think something like that. He knows the nacelles are commonly called engines. The Soyuz and the Miranda have the same nacelles. So if he knows about the Soyuz, then he would think the sensor pods were actually something else and not engines. In this situation, he most likely would have thought those pods were really sensors. Also in this situation, he would know the design as Soyuz class. 2. He pretty much remembered it as a ship from the movies when he said Reliant. The Constellation model was never seen in any movie and was made in TNG's first season as the Stargazer. However a modifcation of the Reliant model could be Constellation nacelles instead of the LN-64 nacelles.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
There was no Encyclopedia and a myriad other official works at the time, so he probably wouldn't have known about "Miranda"-class, especially since he left Star Trek after TNG ended.
David Stipes also called it the Reliant, which suggests that it was a common label among the VFX people, just as "Miranda" is a common label among the present-day fans. The ship is most famous as the Reliant, so the name probably stuck among the VFX people (not to mention non-fans).
As for the Soyuz, he may have thought they were impulse engines. Anything is possible; these guys need not know more than they have to know.
Boris
[ October 23, 2002, 21:45: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:Given that the other ships in the scene were rather commonplace, the Gage was probably one of the familar designs: Miranda, Soyuz, Oberth, Constellation -- plus or minus a rollbar or an impulse-deflection crystal, so to speak.
He remembers it as an altered form of the damaged Reliant model, but to entertain other possibilities...
Miranda: replaced LN-64 nacelles with Constellation nacelles or pylon supported nacelles (like the way ILM had originally envisioned the Reliant until flipped upside-down by Harve Bennett...most likely Legato would not have known about the Reliant's design history) with or without rollbar in the ventral location
Soyuz: he would have needed to take the Soyuz added parts and damage them then connect them to the model differently than the Bozeman had them. Remember the Bozeman was just the Reliant model with new parts added on/modified and the rollbar removed.
Oberth: the only damaged model was the Vico. He could have removed the "secondary hull" and supporting pylons or changed the nacelles
Constellation: he could have made a new plastic model like Picard's desktop model, removed a pair of nacelles, and damaged the model he could have also used a standard 2-deck Connie saucer rim instead of building up the 4-deck Constellation saucer rim.
Excelsior: one of the study models would have been fine, though better not to damage any of them
Constitution: one of the early phase 2 study models would have been fine, again better not to damage any of them
Sydney: take the model and have the nacelle pylons going down instead of up
Ambassador: nebularize the design as we have done recently (though such a model would have to be a full studio filming model as no scale model kits of the Ambassador were yet available)
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
He just says Reliant. He *may* have meant the specific damaged Reliant, but you can't really tell from the e-mail since we know that "Reliant" is also a colloquial name for Miranda-class. I'm also a bit unsure about whether it was necessarily damaged, despite the reference in the DS9 Companion (anybody have the exact quote?). After all, the ships were zipping past the screen and we know that a live-action line was cut from the final draft of the script which said "Sir, Admiral Hanson has deployed the Gage, the Kyushu and the Melbourne." Besides, he also thinks it could be something else, yet I wouldn't go too far into ships that don't resemble a Miranda at all.
Boris
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Basically we have noting. A Reliant could be anything, from some modified model that looked like a Miranda somehow to the Constellationized Challenger from the comic (which was my first thought hen I read it, actually.)
If they filmed the like about Hanson deploying those vessels, it may have looked similar to Shelby's scene in BoBW: The Kyushu, [Chekov] and Melbourne in dialogue, and what we see on-screen is the same thing. Maybe the destruction of the Melbourne was everything that was left after re-editing the scene. They say Hanson has deployed this and that vessel, cut to SFX and we see the Melbourne and two other ships attacking the cube and the getting fried. The Kyushu and Gage moved too fast or didn't fit into the scene and were edited out. I'm absolutely sure the Companion quoted somebody (maybe Legato himself) who said they tried to recreate Wolf as good as possible, with ships like the Kyushu already seen in BoBW. The Kyushu-reference stuck to my mind, and together with a Gage and Melbourne it would make perfect sense.
And besides the meltdown-model from ST2, Constellation is one of the few models we didn't see again after Emissary. At least it would be a candidate.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:All I remember of the Gage was that it was most likely the Reliant from the features (Trek 2).
Err, maybe he confused the Gage with the Saratoga?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That may indeed be the case. It is after all, a modified Miranda. Regardless all we have have now is a vague possibility of a description that may or may not be of the correct ship. Of course like most of the other W359 and DS9 tech manual ships we will never know for sure until we see photos of the actual models.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Who is Ron B. Moore... would he know anything?
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Who is Ron B. Moore... would he know anything?
AFAIK he's one of the VFX Supervisors for Enterprise and was for Voyager too (and TNG before that?). I don't think he ever worked on DS9 but I may be wrong.
Posted by Akula (Member # 319) on :
Quick question what does the "fourth excelsior study model" look like? I haven't kept up with stuff recently. Thanks
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
It'll provide a link to another site with pics from the ST3:SE DVD. The pic you're looking for is the study model with the top view. It looks extremely close to what the studio model ended up being. They had finally nailed down the design with that model.
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