I am interested to see what the general consensus is in this forum for the devices seen on the front of the secondary hull of the original Enterprise. We have a "dish" and behind that are several concentric copper "rings". Various diarams of the ship point to this area and identify it as either the Main Sensor or the Navigational Deflector. Is the dish the Sensor, and the rings the Deflector? Are they both the same device that does both?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
From what I recall, the "dish" is the navigational deflector while the concentric rings behind it are the main sensor array. The Refit Enterprise has something similar in that the glowing dish has two series of rings that surround it. These are the navigational deflector and the main sensor array, respectively. I believe that this is mentioned in "The Making of Star Trek", but might be wrong, there. I'm a little brainfuzzed at the moment due to trying to adjust to moving shifts several times over the last two weeks and haven't been getting more than about 5 hours of sleep a day on average....
Anyhow, at the very least, this is the general concensus of most TOS Treknical fans I know who've done some research on the subject.
HTH,
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
What about the NX-01? They don't have deflector-technology AFAIR, do they? So the dish should be a sensor array.
Posted by Sargon (Member # 1090) on :
Yeah, I thought it was the otherway around as well: The dish is the sensor, and the rings are the deflector. I guess that impression is re-enforced by diagrams such as the FJ Tech Manual pointing to the dishes on the Scout, Destroyer and T-Tug and identifying it as the Main Sensor.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Well, I'll admit I might be wrong, as I'm suffering from lack of sleep for the last several days. However, I'm pretty certain that the FJ plans - much as I love 'em! - got it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I mis-remembered something.
Sleep deprivation is a terrible thing....
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Jefferies (RIP) labels the dish as Sensors. And of course, it looks like a sensor of some kind. But this was all done before anyone had a clue about Star Trek's starships.
Posted by Sargon (Member # 1090) on :
quote: before anyone had a clue about Star Trek's starships
I trust you are saying that with your tongue firmly in cheek.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
OK Just found my notes and re-read them. I was wrong in my statement above, as I had it all backwards...
My bad. I've been something like 60 hours with only 9 hours of sleep, so ain't exactly thinking clearly. I've even seen things out of the cornor of my eye, so guess I'm starting to experience some hallucinations.... Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Well, I know in the TNGTM the long range sensors are mounted behind the navigational deflector, probably so that the hardware of the sensors aren't in the way of the deflector's projected field and its affects (and this would seem to be true for all Starfleet ships of TNG era and after).
Could the same thing apply to earlier ship designs? It would seem like something that wouldn't change much with advancements in technology.
Plus, the long range sensor is not a single sensor, but a collection of a variety detectors. I'm not quite sure they can be fully represented, hardware wise, by a single dish.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
OK Now I'm waffling on this.
Before heading in to work, I found some other notes I'd made. Neither set of notes has a date on it, but this second set of notes agree w/what David Templar states above. I also sort of remember this being mentioned in a semi-official publication think it might be in the TNG:TM. I thumbed thru "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" before heading in to work, but didn't find anything specific there - and wasn't thinking clearly enough to throw it in to my backpack while I was getting ready. I plan to re-read the introduction section, as I think it might contain the basic theory, as well as in the TNG:TM.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
If it helps any, the two systems were originally separate. The main sensor was the dish, while the navigational deflectors were the rings and (especially) the three little boxlike things flanking the dish. Notice the Reliant, while lacking a sensor dish, still has the uprated version of those greeblies from the refit Enterprise incorporated into her design. Even the Excelsior has likely-looking candidates in those little greebled recesses on the dorsal. I think the systems didn't get merged until the Ambassador class.
--Jonah
Posted by BJ_O (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: What about the NX-01? They don't have deflector-technology AFAIR, do they? So the dish should be a sensor array.
Re-watch the premiere, "Broken Bow". Reed specifically mentions the deflector when Hoshi asks "What's that noise?" when they first started out.
B.J.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: The main sensor was the dish, while the navigational deflectors were the rings and (especially) the three little boxlike things flanking the dish
Actually, I think that's backwards, at least by what's on the original TMP blueprints from 1980. The prints label the dish as the navigational deflector, while those three units around the housing are marked as "Space-Energy Field Attraction Sensors."
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
The dish being the main navigational Sensor would make sense and the Reliant not having one would work with it not having the sensors of the more powerful Enterprise.
I think that the original plan was for the dish to be the deflector, but from day one, it LOOKED like a radar dish, so it was impossible to fight.
That's like the Torpedo Launcher in the nose of the Klingon cruiser. In TOS, it wss the deflector/sensor and by ST:TMP it was commonly accepted that it looked like a weapon, so it was used as the torpedo launcher.
Look at what they used that 'dish' for in ST:TNG. The TNG tech manual even specifically says that the navigational sensor is mounted directly behind the deflector.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
If we go by looks rather than by text references, the typically blue "deflector glow" seems to come from the dish in the refit Constitution, from behind the dish in NX-01, and I've heard a rumor that the TOS model was suppose to have a light source for the concentric rings (and for the warp nacelle inner flanks, basically TMP style) even if this was never used/shown.
Treknology-wise, it sounds like a phenomenally bad idea to put *anything* in front of a deflector beam emitter. Putting something in front of your sensor apertures is also silly, of course - but at least it won't get that something blown to smithereens by superpowerful forcefields!
Then again, we know that shields can be projected some distance away from the emitter. Perhaps the deflector beam emitter also generates the beam well ahead of the dish area, allowing other equipment to be placed between the emitter and its beam.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Another two cents on this topic. In TMP you'll notice that the dish changes color from a kind of ruddy amber when the ship is at maneuvering thruster speed to blue when at impulse and warp. It goes back to amber when the ship gets seized by V'ger's tractor beam -- even in the new DE shots -- after Kirk tells Scotty to shut down all main drive systems (albeit in one shot just before Spock kicks on his jetpack it looks bluish...but everything in that shot is bluish for some reason). It goes blue again after the ship leaves V'ger.
Whatever the gizmo is, something about it clearly changes depending on the mode of propulsion in use at the time.
Make of that what you will!
Posted by thelastguardian (Member # 1017) on :
It has always been my understanding that the dish is the deflector, and that other equipment comprises the sensor 'array.'
The dish is aimed forward because that is where its primary function lies -- FAR ahead, sweeping debris out of the ship's way as it moves through space. In TMP, it changes color with the demand being placed upon it -- the faster the ship moves, the more power flows through the system and the more 'blue' the dish appears.
The main sensors in the ship rested in the upper and lower sensor domes, the leading edge of the primary hull (in its three circumferential bands in TMP), the area surrounding the deflector dish, and other locations. These could be aimed anywhere -- at a planet below, or behind the ship, or to port and starboard, or above and below the vessel.
Shane
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's a wok.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know it's a little off topic, but are "naviagtion deflectors" and "deflector shields" all the same thing? Because while the NX-01 doesn't have shields as such, surely it would have to have naviagation deflectors, otherwise the hull would quickly be pocketed with thousands of tiny holes from micrometeorites and McDonald's drink cartons.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
i hate to be a wet blanket, but perhaps the dish is equipped to be both a sensor array and a deflector..
and yes, i believe theres always been a difference between shields and deflectors.. i think that NX-01 probably has navigational deflectors based in their dish, in addition to plarizable hull plating.. (recall later, deflectors have not only navigational but tactical use, and are referred to as 'beams' or 'screens' while shields form the bubble around the ship..)
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Deflectors are like ACME packets anyway... one more function will hardly arouse suspicion. B)
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
A DEFLECTOR (beam) redirects objects in the ships path, away, to avoid collisions. Otherwise, at even half lightspeed, the dust and gas in space would scour the hull pretty smooth in no time.. not to mention rocks.
A DEFLECTOR SHIELD makes it harder for directed objects/beams/missiles to hit. In game terms, think of it as giving a -1 to the hit roll.
FORCE FIELDS are like armor, they absorb/reduce the damage/inertia/energy in an impact/explosion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except when was the last time Trek used Force Fields in that context?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
"shields are down to 45%" sound familiar?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Shields != Force Fields.
At least that's what you just said.
quote: A DEFLECTOR SHIELD makes it harder for directed objects/beams/missiles to hit. In game terms, think of it as giving a -1 to the hit roll.
Now, apart from the fact that I love the gloriousy geeky example, your definition of a Deflector Shield sounds like an ECM system. However, in Star Trek Deflector Shields seem to be...
quote: ...like armor, they absorb/reduce the damage/inertia/energy in an impact/explosion.
Which you say are Force Fields. So those definitions are fairly useless, since that's not how Trek uses them. And we are talking about Trek.
DRAMA!
Posted by thelastguardian (Member # 1017) on :
'The Making of Star Trek' refers to the forward dish as a 'main sensor-deflector.' So, in the case of the TOS Enterprise at least, I'd say it's a combined unit.
In the refit ship, however, the dish has been labeled a dedicated navigational deflector.
Shane
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The deflector could (in theory) act as a sensor by recording what was deflected by measuring the portion of the beam used to redirect a particular object. Kinda like a sonar ping.
Deflectors do not re-direct large objects from a starship's path (derilect vessels, large asteroids etc.) so the deflector acting as a extremely long range collision sensor makes sense.
Deflector/ Navigation shields (as shown on TWOK and TNG)are low-power shields that are always on and hug the ship's hull. That's why a ship is still protected while manuvering at impulse from debris outside the deflector's projected cone. Also why ship's sometimes pass through a debris field with no damnage. Riker once mentions that laser weapons can even not penetrate the Enterprise D's navigation shields (in Connundrum to be exact). In TWOK there are not always on and are activated just prior to the main shields coming on. Mr. Scotts seems to indicate that the deflector shields are a re-enforcment to the ship's SIF as well. These shields are generated by the Deflector Grid (like on the Connie Refit- see? a reason for those damn lines!)
Shields are energy barriers that protect the ship in combat and in most cases will block both matter and energy from impacting the ship's hull. Gene used the term "shields" because "force fields" jsut sounds so gay.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Which is fair enough, although they still use it for internal force fields.
But there has been extensive muddling of the term "deflector shields" in Trek. The TNG usage seemed to have "navigation deflectors" and "deflector shields" as two different things, considering the occasional "Damage to rear deflector shield". Navigation deflectors were the "keep dust and stuff out of the way", while deflector shields were the "big blue bubble thingie".
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Shane, "The Making of Star Trek" is not a good resource on the TOS Enterprise at all.
And I happily recognize:
Deflector beams -- the long-range, forward-sweeping beams that nudge macroparticles out of the ship's path...
Navigation(al) shields -- the nested bubble shields that catch minroparticles and can't be penetrated by lasers and also slows down phasers if they're strong enough...
Deflector shields -- the conformal "energy armour" that protects the hull from the full effects of enemy weapons to varying degrees depending on shield and weapons strenths and frequencies, etc.
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Deflector shields -- the conformal "energy armour" that protects the hull from the full effects of enemy weapons to varying degrees depending on shield and weapons strenths and frequencies, etc.
--Jonah
If "conformal" = "skin tight", then the problem there is that the deflector shields have only been like that since DS9 series 4 (or 5). TNG used shield bubbles for deflectors, unless you are saying that all those energy weapons were stopped by navigational shields.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I call your attention to the shield displays on the bridges in Star Trek II, Star Trek III, Star Trek V, and Star Trek VI. I also point out the VFX of Chang's torpedoes impacting the Enterprise. How many glancing hits left scorch marks on the hull before Scotty announced the shields were collapsing? And then the next shot perforated the saucer, prompting Spock's "the hull has been compromised" comment -- indicating those earlier shots hadn't done so.
TNG is debatable. DS9 and VOY definitely underscored conformal shields as the primary defensive system, while the bubbles get more and more subtly confirmed as navigational shields.
--Jonah
Posted by Sargon (Member # 1090) on :
Conformal shields are first established in TAS.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Granted, but a I wanted to cite examples that had a better chance of not being shot down as "non-canon".
--Jonah
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sargon: Conformal shields are first established in TAS.
One of the storyboards for TMP shows the Refit Enterprise having a bubble shield when being hit by a V'ger energy bolt (The Art of Star Trek, p. 191). While the angle in question wasn't used, the bubble can be inferred by the way the V'ger energy bolt is seen clawing against something in front of the ship rather than crackling over the surface as happened on the Klingon ships.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Did we actually see clearly in TMP where the V'Ger energy bolt was hitting the Enterprise's shields? We know it wasn't hitting the hull, and the energy tendrils were snaking out in a pretty pherical dispersal pattern...
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: TNG is debatable. DS9 and VOY definitely underscored conformal shields as the primary defensive system, while the bubbles get more and more subtly confirmed as navigational shields.
You are right about ST II and VI. I take a bit of objection to "TNG is debatable" though. In 99% of cases, deflector shields were a big, blue bubble. Or green bubble, for Klingon ships. Even in Generations, shields bubbles were still being used.
DS9 didn't start switching to conformal shields until half way through it's run, and even then they weren't always consistent. In fact, the main reason for switching seemed to be so that they could do that cool sequence of the alt-Defiant strafing the Klingon mothership in "Shattered Mirror". The station itself seemed to have both conformal and bubble shields in "Call To Arms", and don't tell me that the bubble shields were "navigational". It's a space station. It doesn't navigate anywhere.
And where in DS9 and VOY do the bubble shields get confirmed as navigational shields?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote:Originally posted by Sargon: Conformal shields are first established in TAS.
One of the storyboards for TMP shows the Refit Enterprise having a bubble shield when being hit by a V'ger energy bolt (The Art of Star Trek, p. 191). While the angle in question wasn't used, the bubble can be inferred by the way the V'ger energy bolt is seen clawing against something in front of the ship rather than crackling over the surface as happened on the Klingon ships.
Well, one hit on the Klingons uses a very similar angle to the bolt hitting enterprise (looking straight back instead of straight ahead though), which made me think it hit the shield, then went right through it onto the hull (that's where the surface action happened, after that earlier shot.) So I figured shields were in place on both.
As for your storyboard mention, there is more in support of that which almost made it into the film. If you look at the longer trailer for TMP that is on the DVD (which is actually a shortened version of a 15 minute Paramount promo film that a friend of mine owned in the early 80s), you can see a fragment of an unused effect that further confirms this. Dykstra had a lot of trouble getting the asteroid explosion to work with all the other aspects (see CINEFEX #2), but he had a great zero gee explosion of the rock going. It was comped with a rotoscope effect of the debris dissolving against the shields SURROUNDING the ship, as seen looking straight ahead, but the shield zap looked bad, so Wise went with the incomplete effect (using a lesser explosion and NO shield effect) seen in the theatrical version instead. As I recall, about two minutes into the trailer, you see this better looking asteroid explosion debris hitting SOMETHING like an invisible shield. It is very brief though.
As for shields in TUC, I go with what Bill George told me in '91: as far as we [ILM] are concerned, you've never seen shields or shield hits in the previous Trek features, so we aren't going to start showing them now just because they do it on Next Generation. TNG has a different warp effect too, and is a different entity from the original cast shows.
I mentioned to him that in TREK II & III that shields conveniently happened to be down any time shots were exchanged, so there was no basis for seeing shield fx in those pictures (or in V, for that matter.) He changed the subject a little bit, noting that ILM has a saying 'continuity is for wussies.' I've interviewed him a few times over the years, and George doesn't usually take that kind of tone or 'tude, so I guess it must be a sore spot.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
He didn't also hate the Enterprise model, did he?
Pity the Enterprise-B never used shields. It would have been interesting to see what they went with, since it had the Ent-B using the old movie warp effect (also called "stock foogage", if we want to get technical), whilst the Enterprise-D used the newer stretch and snap effect, and shield bubbles.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I remember DS9 itself having an outer bubble shield around the whole station, and a smaller bubble shield around either the habitat ring or the central core (can't remember where the Jem'Hadar fighter hit the shields -- have to go back and watch). As for navigational shields on the station, they have to have something to protect them during transit mode. If it actually has an operating protocol for moving the station, then it almost certainly has the appropriate systems in place.
And the only time in Voyager's run that I remember non-conformal shields was when they extended them around the Equinox. I need to go watch part 1 again, as I can't remember what the Equinox's shields looked like when we first saw her...
I'm thinking now that the bubble shields are meant primarily as a navigation tool, but can have more power run to them to actually serve as defensive shields. The conformal shields act as an additional layer of hull armour than can be replenished for as long as the shield generators aren't damaged or operating beyond capacity. That sound closer to what might actually be the case?
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The station was only suppossed to be moved very, very small distances though. They were manouvering thrusters, not impulse engines. Putting in specific navigational shields for something that would hardly have ever been used seems a bit of a waste.
The shield bubble was around the inner part of the station in CTA. All the weapons fire that hit the outer ring hit, well, the outer ring. The bubble only appeared around the inner part when the fighter made the suicide run.
If you want to get closer to what is seen on screen, then surely the most logical answer is:
Deflector shields were bubble shaped during TNGs run, and then shortly after switched to being conformal, perhaps due to advances in shield tech.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Or else the Galaxy class, with such a large civilian population and so many windows, makes the bubble shields just as strong or stronger than the conformal shields to try and keep nasty things as far from the hull as possible.
I have no problem with the bubble shields making the move from overpowered navigational shields in the TMP-era to the first line of defense in the TNG era. I also have no problem with them not being employed in situations where tight maneuvers will be required.
--Jonah
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: He didn't also hate the Enterprise model, did he?
I'm under the impression he likes the aesthetics of it. I think that if George had been designing shots for the earlier films (he was only building models back then, hadn't become an art director till INNERSPACE or ALWAYS), we'd have seen a bit more variety in angles on the E in II & III, especially III, where I was very disappointed with the torpedo exchange between Ent and BOP.
He's the one who came up with the cannonball/shotgun blast torpedo pass-thru on the thin part of the hull in TUC, and I think he is also the guy who sketched up the lead-in shot, the shooting from underneath/break the glass tabletop torpedo flight path.
The one angle I think they really missed out on was with the exterior of spacedock. You'd have needed to build a scaled up section of the top to do it, but I thought a great view would be moving over those towers up top while looking straight down, slowly revealing Earth below as you 'go off the cliff' and descend as a shuttle comes up toward camera.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Conformal shields, BTW, are first established in TOS. "Errand of Mercy" has an amazingly detailed shot where the Enterprise is hit by a volley of Klingon torpedoes which very clearly make contact with the ventral saucer hull - and dialogue establishes that the shields are up (or else the ship would be dust!)...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by thelastguardian (Member # 1017) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Shane, "The Making of Star Trek" is not a good resource on the TOS Enterprise at all.
--Jonah
Why not?
Unlike 100% of the Trek 'tech' books out there, TMOST was written during the original run of the series, while it was still in production. The author got his information directly from Roddenberry, Jefferies, etc.
I'd give it precedence over a LOT of the other stuff out there.
Shane
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Or else the Galaxy class, with such a large civilian population and so many windows, makes the bubble shields just as strong or stronger than the conformal shields to try and keep nasty things as far from the hull as possible.
Except every ship in TNG, from Klingon to Romulan to Cardassian had bubble shields. Don't tell me they were concerned about their civilian populations too.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Just to toss in one other bit of info that I discovered a while back, in TWOK right after Saavik says "Energize Defense Fields" there's a disgram of the Enterprise displayed with a light blue gridlike thing seen appearing on the saucer, which some have taken as being some kind of defense field.
I apologize that the text on the display is muddied, but I saved this image as a 16 color GIF and it mushed the text (which I did clarify in my typed notes).
I can upload a clearer (bigger download) version if anyone wants it.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Shane~
Yes, TMOST was written during TOS' second season, but the technical information in there is inconsistent with what Jeffries has said in other sources. Since I don't recall him being quoted on systemry or ship layout, I doubt Mr. "Whitfield" seriously interviewed him on such matters. And if Gene was his source, Gene had forgotten his directives to Matt during pre-production.
In one particular, Main Engineering. Matt is on record saying he wanted it in the saucer, but Gene insisted on it being "below decks" in the secondary hull. But this book places it at the back of the saucer, that being the source FJ read and echoed for his blueprints. I'm just not sure what to make of this. I wasn't there. Either Gene forgot and pulled something out of his ass a la his stardates explanation, or Mr. "Whitfield" didn't bother to ask anybody and just assumed based on Matt's rough cutaway drawing... *shrug*
It's a good book on what goes into creating and producing (and to a degree, writing) a TV series -- but it should not be viewed as even a rough technical guide to the TOS Enterprise.
--Jonah
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: In one particular, Main Engineering. Matt is on record saying he wanted it in the saucer, but Gene insisted on it being "below decks" in the secondary hull.
Where is this on record? I've seen very little in terms of interviews with Mr. Jeffries.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
They make 16 colour GIFs now? Madness.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
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