So, I capped the episode. Check out the "Iceland"- and Intrepid-type here listed as earth starfleet type 1 and 2 from "Twilight", with the fleet further down as fleet from "Twilight: starships
And after seeing the FF diagrams of the Hazari ship, I concur that it is indeed a reuse. So we've got Enterprise, Intrepid, two "Icelands", two Y-classes, a J-class, a Hazari, and what else?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
There is at least one (and I think 2) of the Arctic One-type design from "Regeneration" (ENT). And if the other one is indeed the Axanar vessel from "Fight Or Flight," then it's a nice (though perhaps not entirely intentional) bit of continuity, as IIRC the Axanar were supposed to join the Federation at some point, right?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well... we don't know that. We only know Captain Garth led some victory against someone at Axanar, and that the outcome of the battle led to Spock and Kirk "being able to work together". And a young Kirk attended the Axanar peace mission and got a medal.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Wasn't there a map on DS9 that showed Axanar inside Federation space?
Also, though it wouldn't be strictly canon of course, doesn't Star Charts list it as a UFP member?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Indeed it does, but then it also lists the Ba'ku as being members. So Axanar could be either a full member or just a protectorate.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Axanar is like Puerto Rico. Sure they're an independant country. Sure they are.
Here's aquestion: does the forward half of the Intrepid's nacelles connect with the saucer or are they just very very very close? I see no pylon attachment in any stillframe there and there seems to be all the shadow of it not being attached.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't think they're attached. . .
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
They aren't attached, no.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
This guy , who posts on the TrekBBS, has HDTV and does the most awesome screencaps I've yet seen. For pics of the Intrepid and triangular ships, go down to the bottom to the sub-gallery labeled "Xindi Battle."
I've requested caps of the refugee fleet from him as well.
-MMoM Posted by Aya (Member # 1148) on :
Is it just me or does one of the triangle shaped ships look like a Romulan warbird (like the kind seen in "Minefield" and TOS?
And those HDTV screencaps are very nice. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Agreed about the warbird thing. Up-swept engine pylons on the primary hull aren't typical for Fed/Earth designs at all - only ENT seems to show those.
The Intrepid has a nice "steamship" feeling IMHO. The ribbed nacelle design, the metal finish, the overall clumsiness of nacelle placement... She's like something Matt Jeffries could have come up with. Install swept pylons for sleeker nacelles mounted farther aft, and the Intrepid would look like a 24th century vessel, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aya (Member # 1148) on :
Speaking of Jefferies, is he still alive?
I'm alittle partial to the triangle ship myself.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Jefferies passed away January of this year, IIRC.
Posted by Aya (Member # 1148) on :
Oh.
Well, atleast he'll live in every Feddie starship. Well, the ones that have Jefferies Tubes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aya: Is it just me or does one of the triangle shaped ships look like a Romulan warbird (like the kind seen in "Minefield" and TOS?
Sabre? I don't see the resemblance.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
All right, now it's time for someone with artistic talent to recreate those Earth Starfleet ships in real 2D arrangements!
Aya: The "Iceland" ship has its bridge right at the front of the primary hull, just like the Saber does. But that's all Jason was referring to, I think -- not the rest of the ship.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Exactly: just the bridge position and the look of the bridge itself.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
More cockpitty than bridgey, methinks... Goes with the overall aerodynamic look of the ship.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NO....look at how far away the ship is in the screencap I linked: it's a bridge and probably as large a bridge as the NX-01's at that.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I understand that. What I'm saying is that the bridge is placed forward on the hull to evoke the image of an jet fighter.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
hmmmmm....I think it looks more like a 767's cockpit buldge (as long as we're making airplane comparisons). That's the feature that I think makes the Sabre so attractive and fast looking.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Please don't direct-link to any of these pics.
The convoy caps are up now, too, I think...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Why? Does it hose someone more than going through the directory? If so, I'll definitely not do it...
'cept to you, of course. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
none of the convoy caps work - although I haven't seen the episode and I shouldn't be spoiling myself like this.
Andrew
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
He messed up with the thumbnail page, he just used the layout of the main gallery page, so the thumbnails don't work and there are too many of them, but if you click on the first 6 or so, you will indeed get the full sized convoy pics.
Jason, he's got a big pleading reminder right at the top of the page...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm supposed to read pleas from puny humans now? BAH!
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Regarding the Intrepid, it seems to have an almost identical basic saucer construction as the NX-class. Quite a lot of windows too. Probably the saucer is of the same size, minus the cut-outs. Only that if they do a side by side comparison, they will let the NX appear considerably larger.
And I agree with Starship Freak that one of the designs looks like Kes's shuttle.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Perhaps the Intrepid is the often speculated NW-Class, the immediate predecessor to the NX.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Dunno about that... however, what about that arrowhead shaped one: couldn't it be the "Neptune" class that Trip mentioned.
I have a problem with the name "NX" class anyway. It should really be "Enterprise" class. Traditionally ship classes are named for the first-of-class.
Although it could be "NX" class the same way that "Oliver Hazard Perry" class frigates in the US Navy are sometimes referred to as "FFG-7" class. But we know that the USS Excelsior was "NX-2000" until she was re-engineered... are we to suppose she is of the same class as the "NX-01 Enterprise"?
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
um.. the Excelsior isnt from the same Starfleet as ENT so it cant be expected to observe the same registry system.
Earth ships before the formation of the Federation obviously use a very different nomenclature.. J-class, Y-class, NX-class.. the Fleet obviously hasnt switched over to the latter day class name system seen in the Federation
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Then what about the "Neptune" class Mr Smarty-Pants? Huh? Huh? (Hee hee!)
Of course, we are asking them to make some sort of sense... shame on us.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The "Neptune class" was a bit weird, considering that they had just introduced us to the whole NX, J, Y class system.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Well you know that Berman and Braga are the secret identities of Captain Continuity and his trusty sidekick Time Travel-Boy.
...sigh...
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
In the British Navy Tradition, ships are given a letter class, like 'Y Class" or "B class" and the ships of the class all have names beginning with that letter and/or the theme of the class ship. For example, the B-class HMS Broadsword.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I never had a problem with it being NX class. I think we're to assume the Enterprise's class designation got carried over to the Federation Starfleet in the registry scheme of experimental ships as some sort of homage.
But then they went and through the Neptune Class in the mix. I'm assuming it's not a Star Fleet vessel. Could be a civvy ship whose crew shop at the same chair store that Star Fleet does.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Ah...
Unfortunately there is a is a flaw in your supposition, Watson:
We know that the "Y" and "J" classes are civilian cargo ships that are registered with the Earth Cargo Service, not Starfleet. So "Neptune" doesn't fit that scheme either. We could suppose that the "Neptune"s predate Starfleet and were space probes launched under the auspices of the UESPA...
... but somehow I doubt Starfleet would have given "Enterprise" a command chair from ship that was THAT old.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well 'civilian ships' is a VERY broad category to be making sweeping judgements based on just a small number of examples. So far, the only no-Starfleet earth vessels we've seen in Enterprise are of the Earth Cargo Service, which from the name we can infer that it has some sort of affiliation with the Earth government. We have yet to see privately owned ships, vessels owed by private companies etc. each of whom may have their own class designation system. That said there are several other type of craft we know of from this period using letters and sometimes numbers too to designate class (see the 'Up The Long Ladder' list.)
As for the reason why the NX-01 isn't an 'Enterprise-Class' vessel; at this stage in history it seams that the old traditions of NASA are still in use. NASA being mainly formed by air force personnel, it carries allot of the air force's naming traditions, such as the dependence on alpha numeric designations for specific types of craft. While it is true that most aircraft models have an official name (harrier, tomcat, tornado, Chinook), the primary means of recognition by those who use and manage these craft are still just combinations of letters and numbers. Likewise with NASA's space craft and as it seems the 22nd century Starfleet and ECS vessels.
The reason for the switch in traditions is anyone's guess. Perhaps it originates from Vulcan naming traditions and not the earth navies at all.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by japol: ... but somehow I doubt Starfleet would have given "Enterprise" a command chair from ship that was THAT old.
Not necessarily... I mean almost every GM vehicle shares the same seatbelt-- with small differences in it being inside or outside of the wall/door. So the chair could just be a one size fits all issue and they bought it from the manufacturer who just happened to be selling it to the guys who made the civilian ship class Neptune, which is a luxury liner class that takes people on pleasure cruises throughout the solar system as far out as Neptune.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Interesting idea. I could be wrong... after all. It IS actually a bucket seat out of a Porsche. Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: In the British Navy Tradition, ships are given a letter class, like 'Y Class" or "B class" and the ships of the class all have names beginning with that letter and/or the theme of the class ship. For example, the B-class HMS Broadsword.
That's not entirely accurate; often, the RN will assign names within a particular batch of vessels with the same first letter. HMS Broadsword for example is a Broadsword class or Type 22 frigate and all batch 1 vessels in this calss have names beginning with B (Battleaxe, Brilliant, Brazen). The first 3 batch 2 vessels also have names beginning with B (Boxer, Beaver, Brave) while the last three of this batch are assigned names beginning with whatever the Navy though appropriate (London, Sheffield and Coventry). The third batch ships all begin with C (Cornwall, Cumberland, Chatham, Campbeltown).
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Slightly off-topic on this:
Did you know that the call-signs of the helicopters on British cruisers and frigates are related to the ship whenever possible? For example: HMS Battleaxe's helo is "Hatchet" and HMS Brazen's is "Hussy".
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Ah, so you read Tom Clancy too.
quote:Originally posted by japol: Slightly off-topic on this:
Did you know that the call-signs of the helicopters on British cruisers and frigates are related to the ship whenever possible? For example: HMS Battleaxe's helo is "Hatchet" and HMS Brazen's is "Hussy".
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Well not for a while, but yeah. That was a good book.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
HMS Beaver?
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Hmmmm...
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
The Brits have some really odd names left over from the heyday of shipbuilding in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.
On the other hand, would you really tremble in fear at the mere mention of the USS City of Corpus Christi (seriously).
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
You would if it where being escourted by the USS Corpus Christi.
Yes, they're two different ships (a Sub and a Ship, if memory serves).
I think, Los Angeles class boats are named "City OF..."
Never Know, the Neptune class might be of a line of ship classes, named for Mythology, instead of planets.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I don't care what the Neptune Class ships are named after... I just think their mission/use has something to that planet.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
They mentioned that "Neptune"s were surveyors or explorers or something like that.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Uh, no. The LA class subs are not named USS "City of ..." They are just USS Los Angeles and so forth. And no, there is no USS Corpus Christi. The city and the US Navy did not want a warship with such a religious name. That is why it is instead USS City of Corpus Christi. A warship named after the city with the city, or course, named after the religious symbol. It is the only US Naval ship named USS "City of ..."
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
On a reverse note, it's quite likely that a "Benares" will be launched some day, to be the namesake of the city, but nobody would bear the thought of launching another "City of Benares"...
I'm with the clique that says that the letter designations for classes are "official" or officious Starfleet parlance, whereas each ship class is also known by a "proper" name. Thus, NX class is Enterprise class, too. And I find it highly unlikely that TPTB would ever bother to contradict that particular line of thought.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And thankfully, there's no "USS City of New Orleans" either... (I've heard that song, and it drives me nuts. Even if I do like "Alice's Restaurant"...) Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Different times, different customs. They were churning out so many ships during the war, probably no-one had time to get offended by it before it was a done deal. And it only served about 3 years before decommissioning.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: And thankfully, there's no "USS City of New Orleans" either... (I've heard that song, and it drives me nuts. Even if I do like "Alice's Restaurant"...)
... don't ya know me AAAHHM your na-tive son....
heh heh heh... Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Perhaps the Intrepid is the often speculated NW-Class, the immediate predecessor to the NX.
Here's a funny coincidence:- I made this way back during the first season of Enterprise when people were speculating about the Class of the Shenandoah. I just found it again while testing out the new Flare upload.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Cool. I vote the flying wing ship as the NU-Class. Because, that's why.
Posted by Captain Bob (Member # 1182) on :
Cool. I thought up the same naming system. Great minds must think alike . My system is a bit different though...
NT - "Neptune" or "Wedgie" type destroyer/surveyor NU - ? NV - ? NW - Intrepid type cruiser NX - Enterprise class cruiser NY - Daedalus class battleship
I think the triangle ship's designation should be a bit farther back, "T" perhaps, as it still has the old wedge hull shape (remember the ship loaded with impulse engines in the opening credits?) "Neptune" could very well be a nickname, couldn't it? NT --> NEPTUNE? I too believe the Shenandoah is of the NW class (Intrepid.)
Could the NY class be the Daedalus (remade to Enterprise standards, of course, with new hull plating and engines?) I think it's the next logical step.
What do ya think?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That might make sense, if the Daedalus looked anything like a decent warship. I somehow doubt that we'll ever see it on "Enterprise."
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Why not try redsigning the Daedalus? Same config - sphere, secondary hull and two nacelles - but change all the details, like hull detailing, pylon angles and design, etc., to make it look cooler and more in keeping with the NX 'look?'
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That has already been done by several 3D artists I belive. The results are mixed to say the least.
I might add that I really doubt that the Daedalus was ever a battleship, more likely it was just a small science vessel/surveyor. The Oberth-Class of it's day.
Posted by Captain Bob (Member # 1182) on :
Lee; That's what I meant, something like this. (Big picture!) Karim Nassar made the model, you can find more pictures in the original thread here.
Cool huh?
Reverend; I don't think it would be a science ship, it was pretty frackin' big for the era.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
There's a very cool one in progress over in Scifi-Meshes:
Been watching it for a little while.
Posted by Captain Bob (Member # 1182) on :
Ooh, that is nice.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Big!? It's about half the size of the NX and is positively dwarfed by the Earth cargo ships. In fact it's only a little bit bigger than the old DY-100.
Regardless, size is a poor measure of function.
Posted by Captain Bob (Member # 1182) on :
Oh. Oops.
...when I rise to power I shall have to resize it to suit my needs... Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
quote:Originally posted by japol: There's a very cool one in progress over in Scifi-Meshes:
Seanr, eh? Haven't seen him round here since he stormed off in a huff after we had the sheer effrontery to ask if maybe he could post links to his humongous images instead of just putting the whole thing in his post. 8)
That model is looking amazing, let us know if he ever finishes it.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Nope - it is Koborak. SeanR is just giving his opinion and advice.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Nitpick, subclassification Nerd: How does one go about "redesigning" a ship that does not technically (ugh..."canonically") have a design, in the strictest sense?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Why not try redsigning the Daedalus? Same config - sphere, secondary hull and two nacelles - but change all the details, like hull detailing, pylon angles and design, etc., to make it look cooler and more in keeping with the NX 'look?'
Something I sketched a long time ago - but no body was interested. I'm not up with the CGI work - so I can't produce an impressive pretty picture. Jason was going to build a model from spare parts for me.
I didn't say seanr was building it, I just commented on seeing him there. Do try to keep up, dear boy. . .
That's a bit of an extreme redesign, Andrew. . .
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK not a redesign but more of the 'technology unchained' thing to link it in with the Daedelus.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Gah. The kids these days don't even recognize a good design anymore. With all your new fangled air-o-dynamics and glowing gadgets. In our days, we were happy with a starship looking like a shampoo bottle!
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I'd like to point out that there is no canon evidence for the ball-and-stick ship to be the Daedalus...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, no, not speaking in the strictest sense of the word there isn't. But it WAS designed by Jein in the first place specifically to represent the Daedalus, and it's been universally regarded as such by Paramount, so...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What, even by the tea lady?
And, if we're going to go down this road, there's no canon evidence that the shampoo bottle with ball attached ship even existed for real in Trek.
Hnng.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
If we go by very strict canon, there's also no evidence that water is wet.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
*sighs*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Or that the Defiant is 120m.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
I thought we agreed that Defiant size is small Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
or smallish? Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Well, no, not speaking in the strictest sense of the word there isn't. But it WAS designed by Jein in the first place specifically to represent the Daedalus, and it's been universally regarded as such by Paramount, so...
True, very, very true. However, that "early warp ship" model was also designed by Jein in the first place specifically to represent Cochrane's first warpship. Except...that got changed by STFC. And that cigar-shaped ship with the wings on the fins, don't even get me started about that...
[ December 17, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Actually... the Daedalus model appeared at one point as a model in Captain Sisko's office on DS9 (see "The Art of Star Trek" by the Reeves-Stevens', page 6). So unless it was a fictitious vessel as decoration, which to me seems unlikely, that's your evidence of it existing right there.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes, we know. And at one point, there was a model of a movie-Constitution class ship with it's nacelles on backwards in someone's quarters. Are we going to insist that exists now?
And, to extend it, I have an Optimus Prime figure on a shelf in my room, because I am cool. Is that proof that there's a truck (or fine engine, in this case) out there that transforms into a giant robot?
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote: I thought we agreed that Defiant size is small
-------------------- Jan Strzelecki - Kazeite
Quote:
Riker: "Tough little ship." Worf: (Snarling) "LITTLE?"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Snarling?
Next scene: Riker lies on the floor motionless, a piece missing from his neck... Worf wiping blood and flesh off his mouth onto the sleeve of his uniform.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
At work, a lot of people have pictures and models at their desks of aircraft *concepts* that never made it to production or even prototype. Considering Sisko was on the design side of things for a while, it could be a model of another concept, or maybe a preproduction version of the Daedalus.
B.J.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Yes, we know. And at one point, there was a model of a movie-Constitution class ship with it's nacelles on backwards in someone's quarters. Are we going to insist that exists now?
I'd say that just proves people in the 24th century also don't read the instructions with their model kits. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A VERY good point considering the Connie Refit I saw on Ebay painted in red white and blue. (uncontrollable shudder) Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
As in patriotically, or just badly? Or both?
They really didn't have too much luck with the refit-Connie models. The one in "The Neutral Zone" had backwards engines, and the one in "Booby Trap" had engines that were horizontal rather than vertical. Did NONE of those people ever watch the movies?
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Yes, we know. And at one point, there was a model of a movie-Constitution class ship with it's nacelles on backwards in someone's quarters. Are we going to insist that exists now?
I'd say that just proves people in the 24th century also don't read the instructions with their model kits.
To quote Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbes): "Do I LOOK like a sissy?" - when Hobbes asks him if he's going to use the instructions that came with his F-4 Phantom model kit.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
^^^ Yes, and later that same week Calvin started complaining about how stupid the model was because it was breaking apart and impossible to paint.
Of course, he also considered building one of those sailing ships with the rigging and canvas for his second model, so I don't think he learned his lesson. Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
Now I have to go paint a refit connie in a red, white, and blue scheme. Welcome to the USAF Thunderbirds of the 23rd century.
Funny but everytime I see that I want to say 23 and 1/2 century!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Cool huh?![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Ooh, that is nice.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)