Now, I hope I am not asking a redundant question, but why where Federation sheilds so ineffective during the dominion war? I know they were worthless against a poloron beam and such, but cardassian phasers? After watching several ds9 eps with fleet battle scenes, i was surpised to see ships that just entered the fray blown apart by cardie phasers (like in Sacrifice of Angels). Even better was the galaxy class in Tears of the Profits that had two large hul breaches seemingly within seconds of the defence platforms comming online. Any thoughts?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Are you sure the shields were ineffective, and not the Dominion weapons just so much superior?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
but cardassian phasers??? We've seen the enterprise and deep space nine handle them with no problem. I wonder if the captains decided to nix the sheilds( as they would do no good against polaron beams and energy dampening dohickies) and transfer power to weapons and structural integrity. upon reading some other threads today; I am sorry to hear about Jay.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, wouldn't it make sense that the Dominion would upgrade Cardassian weapon power?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
good point. But then that leads me to ask why they did not look into say, hull plating a la NX01 and i know that ds9 was produced before enterprise, but theoretically, it would make sense to have some kind of secondary barrier against all thats bad in the universe.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
They did - the Defiant was fitted with ablative armour which acted as a second line of defense once the shields were down. It wasn't just limited to the Defiant either - presumably the Sao Paolo had the same armour plating. The USS Lakota (an older Excelsior class design) also had it fitted, so it wasn't something limited to newer ship designs.
It's worth bearing in mind that shield strengths were never shown to be consistent - when the Defiant played possum in "Favor the bold" her shield "bubble" appeared when the Jem'Hadar fired on her. Yet, as you say, in fleet battle scenes there didn't seem to be any evidence of shields at all on many of the ships.
Of course the real world answer is that ships exploding with all sorts of damage looks a lot cooler than ships flying around gradually battering down one another's shields, but as for the "in universe" explanation? Anyone's guess. Could it be that the shields are dropped around certain non-essential areas to boost the shielding around critical areas/systems? After all who cares if the holodecks on deck 10 take a hit, if it means keeping the shields up around the engineering hull a few moments longer? Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
true. But those were recent builds/refits( like the Lakota). You'd think that starfleet would make that standard- maybe not ablative armor, but at least polarized plating- just in case the shields failed. It makes me think that starfleet felt their tech was invincible. Such large egos. I guess capt. styles wasn't such a rare breed afterall.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Is there anything to suggest the Lakota was a recent build/refit? She might have been around for a while for all we know. Memory Alpha lists her registry number as NCC 42768 - anyone know where that might roughly put her construction date?
Starfleet might well have made the ablative armour standard, though - in the later years of 24th century Trek the ships do seem to take more of a swing towards being combat ready.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Well, the Ambassador was ncc 10xxx's and 20xxx's and the first galaxy in the very early 70xxx's. That wouls be about the 2330's and 2350's respectively ( according to memory alpha) so some time between there would sound about right. But i swear that sometime in "Paridise Lost" there was mention of Lakota being recently refit. I amassuming that the armor was installed during that time
a) because it is a relitivly new technology and b) other excelsiors with similar 4xxxx registries ( the Valley Forge comes to mind) got their aft torpedo launchers handed to them on a plate
I'm not saying that armor would not be installed in future builds or refits, but why there would be no second line defence on older ships. I guess the S.I.F. could take a little extra punishment, but it just seems stupid not to have some sort of back up protection.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I thought the official Flare conclusion was that the shield bubbles represented the wholly ineffectual to Dominion weapons technology, which was swapped for the only slightly less ineffectual but better than nothing skin-hugging shields which conveniently have no associated special effect technology?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
which would explain the post war Enterprise E's shield configuration. As for the effect....
What i don't understand is ( other than a convienient plot device) why the NX-01, a low tech ship by 24th century standards can take a butt-load of punishment, namely the xindi attack @ azati prime, suffer multiple serious looking hull breaches and continue to function with seemingly little repair. In TNG times however, it seems that a single hull breach is enough to warrant a full scale evacuation, and renders the ship in need of immediate repair.
I appologize if this does not make sense, but it is 11:30, and almost time for my daily rest cycle.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Is there anything to suggest the Lakota was a recent build/refit? She might have been around for a while for all we know. Memory Alpha lists her registry number as NCC 42768 - anyone know where that might roughly put her construction date?
Based on the timeline-per-construction chart I made for my project, I have Lakota built in 2332 or 2333.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I don't think it's a matter of the NX-01 being made of sterner stuff, just that it's a matter of necessity. Why doesn't a TNG era ship soldier on with hull breaches and damage to systems? Simple - it doesn't have to, because by that time there is an extensive network of starbases to support the fleet. You get badly damaged, you head off to the nearest base and get yourself patched up. The NX-01 had no choice in the matter, especially when it was in the Delphic Expanse and far from any remotely friendly races. It was a matter of continue on with massive damage, or fail in the mission to save Earth, not that it necessarily tougher than later Starfleet ships.
Ships in the TNG era have suffered hull breaches and kept going - in Best of Both Worlds the Enterprise suffers a breach to deck 36 and keeps going - they are even able to control engineering functions from the bridge and keep going while (I hope, anyway!) repairs are carried out. Voyager has hull breach after hull breach in its time and always manages to make repairs. Granted, that's more a function of the big magic reset button (tm) but in the show, it's got to be as a result of repairs done on the fly.
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Based on the timeline-per-construction chart I made for my project, I have Lakota built in 2332 or 2333.
So she is certainly not a new ship by the time of DS9 - roughly about 40 years old. I know in that episode that the Defiant crew seemed surprised that the Lakota had received upgraded defense systems but there is no reason to think that this wasn't a fleetwide upgrade by this point, or at least an upgrade given to all ships under Leyton's influence.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Sean.... Sean.... Sean...
Star Fleet didn't have Overtechnology at the time.
or Idol Singers.
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I thought the official Flare conclusion was that the shield bubbles represented the wholly ineffectual to Dominion weapons technology, which was swapped for the only slightly less ineffectual but better than nothing skin-hugging shields which conveniently have no associated special effect technology?
Spandex Shields?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
well, after Starfleet decided it didn't make for a good uniform, thay had to have used all that extra material for something. Of course, they kept enough to keep Troi firmlyt encased in spandex cat-suits for seven years.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
The same technology later used for Seven of Nine, of course. Pioneered by T'Pol....
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Just how much punishment can the SIF take, do you think? I've always thought the SIF was indeed a backup for the shields, powered up further in a red-alert situation; but I can't remember why I've always thought that.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
I've always believed that the SIF was used to keep the ship in one piece IF the hull was compromised, but that after you get to a certain point of damage ( swiss cheese starship) it wont do you any good. It would be a good idea however, to prevent the hull from breaching in the first place though. In non combat situations the SIF would be used to handle everyday stresses put on the ship, like travelling at warp speed and the like.
On a similar note, upon watching ST II The wrath of Khan last night, i noticed that the enterprise's hull did not seem to breach. Reliant's phasers and photons left scars and burn marks, and plasma conduits and the like most likely ruptured on the inside of the ship, but there was no mention of the hull breaching. This is unlike in ST VI TUC where a klingon torp. went clean through the hull. Perhaps there is infact some sort of armor on the ship. ( or khan just did not know how to aim the weapons correctly, and was using a lower weapon yeild.)
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, the SIF is necessary to keep such an ungainly thing in one piece under any acceleration at *all.* Look at the necks on some of those ships, and at the proportion of some of those saucers to the rest of the ship - the inertial differences would rip it in half at even a hundredth of impulse power.
I don't think warp speed puts too much stress on the hull, as long as the field is uniform - it's quite non-Newtonian, and I don't think any relativistic or 'real' acceleration is involved. In the case of warp, the nav deflector is the most important bit of hardware; a hydrogen atom at thousands of times c will tear through a hell of a lot.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Ah well, so i dont know my physics...
It would be interesting to see "endgame" style ablative armor outfitted on future vessels. Starfleet having all their ships fly around encased in a duranium bubble would be quite amusing.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
No, you know your *real* physics, but the warp drive doesn't operate on real science; it's all made up.
Oooh yeah. Ablative armor generators. Those things kick serious ass.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
About the armour generators...
i assume that the generators replicate a shell around the ship, which then becomes one solid piece of metal.
If the armor is down to 0%, does the whole thing break away, or just disappear?. If it could be punctured like a normal hull ( after it had degraded to 0%) it could theoretically be a "second layer" under full strength armor, and once the armor is all gone, you have shields, and then the fragile hull. This could in theory give the ship more time to survive in battle, and more time to disable the enemy...
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Last Unicorn Games had ablative armor as an added layer over the hull that dispersed energy (either direct or kinetic) via conduction and radiation. I prefer that over a replicator system that worked on the scale of coating the whole ship. In fact, if there was such a replicator technology, that would seem higher-tech than the collapsing armor ADM Janeway brought to Voyager in the last ep.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Well, i was always under the assumption that adm janeway's tech was based on replicator technology. All that Armor has to come from somewhere, and the emmitters are too small and far apart to contain all the armor needed to cover the ship
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The thing is, if it is based on known methods of replicator tech, then where would the matter used in the armor be stored when it's not in use? We're talking about a shell that encompasses the entire outer surface of a ship. You're basically keeping a spare hull inside a ship.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Replicators don't necessarily need matter, just power. Energy-to-matter conversion. Energy being the same as matter, but in a different state, has been known since Einstein.
Sean - I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly, but if I am, you seem to think the ablative armor generators put a "bubble" around the ship. That's not true - it hugs the hull, it's physically touching it and attached. Also, the armor doesn't disappear or anything when it hits "0%" - it's just metal, formulated to be very very fragile and with a low evaporation point, so that when weapons hit it, it disperses the energy by evaporating/exploding (or probably deflagrating rapidly). It's like how water cools a surface down by evaporating - it takes the heat energy away from the surface as it leaves, energy it needs to break the hydrogen bonds with the other water molecules. However, water doesn't degrade until it hits 0% 'integrity' and then suddenly it all boils off at once.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Ahh... 0h well, to me it looked like there was atleast a few meters between the hull and armor.
Now to explain to my chemistry teacher that i learned more about chem from a star trek message board than i did from him....
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I learned more biology and math farting around on the internet than I ever learned in school, and I even have a shiny medal somewhere in the basement left over from high school related to biology...Public education sucks Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
The subject itself wouldn't be so hard if i wasn't sick from school so often.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Yeah, the beer didn't bother me in the least, but school made me ill all the time.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Alas, perscription medication will do that to ya too. Damned nasty side effects.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
So, which made you sicker, the meds or the school?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
The meds, i actually live for school. Especially because one of my teachers is a huge trekkie. And I mean spock ears in the desk type Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
My music teacher in 3rd-5th grades had a Trek collection worth so much that she leased it to museums as temporary exhibits.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Mother nature has called again. 65 mph winds means no school today, so i get to sleep. it also means that most of the area is without power, and flooded, thanks to the extra 8ft of water level that lake erie has obtained in the last 8 hours. A house down the road from mine has a 25 ft pin tree impaled in it's second story.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Here's a question I've always wanted to ask when I see severe weather on the news...is it as fun as it looks in spite of the danger? I was in two Texas thunderstorms that deposited 6in of water in two or three hours, and all the runoff ran straight into campus...and that was a *lot* of fun. Thigh-deep water in some places near storm drains. Lots of workers in rubber waders with big long rakes constantly stirring up the leaves so the water would drain.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Well, i guess it is cool most of the time. Here in hamburg ( suburb of Buffalo,NY), we get a good wallop of snow each year, mad worse by the lake effect thet lake erie provides. This little oopsie was nothing compared to what we had last october. Like the first or second week of the month and this huge storm front hit. snow, strong winds, no power... everything was closed for the week. more about this here.
It is fun to have a snow day ( i guess there's a reason they alot 7 or more into the year), and watching things unfold is quite fun.( as long as you dont have to drive in it) I have come to learn that it is not THAT the wind is blowing, but WHAT the wind is blowing. While walking around in 40+ mph winds is not fun, imagine having to avoid trash cans as they speed towards your head, or a sheet metal road sign imbedded i your front porch. The 2-4 ft of snow that an average storm around here deposits in the winter is fine, infact it's beautiful, almost like a postcard. The only time that it becomes a major issue is when that snow is comming down so thick you cant see, or when that snow is being tossed around by the wind, and deposited in other places ( the inside of your boxer shorts one of the most unpleasant.)
Put it this way, if it is the first burst of bad weather of the season, it is fun. Once you're into jan or feb, it turns from fun to a pain in the ass. Maybe if we had less than 7 months of winter it would be more fun. Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Come to think of it, i would like to visit tornado alley durring the tornado season. I wouldn't want to chase it, but just witnessing it would be fun i guess.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Nahh, kind of bland with the roofs of large stores being ripped off, people trapped in theaters for a couple of days with no power, power poles leaned every which way, tree limbs falling all about. The light show can be kind of cool though.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
It actually gets very boring, because the TV weatherman is always interrupting your frakkin show (did I spell "frak" correctly?) to warn you about severe thunderstorm this and supercell that. Yeah, like the view outside the window didn't inform me that it was about to get pretty severe ... ;P You learn to discount most of the tornado watches, since they put them out *so* often and it so rarely turns into anything real. I think I've been in a town where a tornado actually touched town four times, three in Illinois and once in Texas. Where I live is so sparsely populated that even though tornadoes hit all season, they rarely are going to be right near you, and usually they're out in a cornfield somewhere.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Yeah, Dan, but the corn fields can be right in downtown here too.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
lol Yes, indeed they can, but I was really more pointing out the area of land which is *only* cornfield (or soy field or very occasionally barley field where I live) and which doesn't also have people living very near it. I can only speak about central Illinois here, but most everybody is concentrated in tiny pocket towns with lots of farmland in between that has the kind of population density where your nearest neighbor is between two and ten miles away.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Dan, I am talking about the same place. Take the cornfield behind the Sec. of State's main office. Of course, that has gotten smaller since the Rupnik brothers start expanding there.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
My dad works as a paramedic for an air medical transport company, and the helicopter he was on was actually "chased" by a tornado a few years ago. My mom and i had to deliver him a fresh pair of underware at the heliport later that day.
From what i understand, Western new york is situated in a spot of ever conflicting air-masses, so i am surprised we don't get more tornados around here. Oh well, I guess you can't ask much more from an area that has -0 degree winters,and 85+ degree summers.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Ritten, you know what I love? Standing in a retail parking lot with the courthouse towering in view, busy thoroughfare with cars coming and going in a constant stream...then turning 90* to the left and watching some farmer on his carbine in the cornfield across the street ;P Of course the town I actually live in (and the one before that) are too small for 'downtown' to apply...sometimes 'uptown'...(this is for sean's benefit). Blink-n-you'll-miss-'em type places.
Speaking of weather. What the hell?? It's snowing, and I'm seeing lightning and hearing thunder.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
He's riding a small rifle??
Those are the best types of snow storms. Just like thunderstorms, but colder. But driving in downtown Buffalo is hard in the best of weather, so once i decide to drive, i think i'll stay out of there if at all possible.
I go vacationing in the middle of Ontario, Canada, somewhere called Arigane Lodge. Good food, nice accomodations, beautifull waitresses... Anyhoo, to get there, you have to travel through a town called Northbrook. It has 4 roads, main street is only aq mile long, and has a population of 200. The town has one restaurant ( a fish and chips place), one bar, one small market, two BEER STORE outlets, and an ice-cream shoppe, which is also the video rental store, pet food supply store, and auto parts outlet.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Someone I once knew once lived in a town which consisted of the grocery store and the three apartments above it The smallest town I've personally seen had a population of 67. 67 idiots who live in a flood plain right next to the river and don't move till their house gets condemned...
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Oh my god. WTF is up with mother nature? One day, we have damn-near blizzard conditions, and the next, we get 62F with light showers. As for small towns, Until I went to that little canadian area, i thought my town (population 995.5- no, this is seriously what the townhall database says), but to see some of these near ghost towns is surprising. And you have got to give it to the people of canada (of which i prodly claim as 1/2 of my heritage), two BEER STOREs in a 2 kilometer area..... Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
In those big-ass 950ml cans!
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I thought they measured in centimeter for that, my mistake.
Shields more than just a name.
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Mililitre is for volume of a liquid. I have however, seen a 2 litre bottle of beer once. After a couple of those, mililitre and centimetre mean the same thing. Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
sean, note the bold.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: ...cans!
Slightly sexual in nature, not intended for audiences under 18, blah, blah, blah.....
If the beam cut right through the shields would they make the typical lighting effect?
Posted by sean (Member # 2010) on :
Ahh.... ( your words sink into my thick polish skull) I get it.
As for the shields (whew its been a few weeks!) In Generations, when the BoP's disrupters and torpedos went through the enterprise's shields, they still produced the normal outline of the shield bubble. I would also assume that weapons going through hull-hugging shields would have the same effect. But you know what happens when you assume things in the trek universe....
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
here's a thought. when was the first time, in what series, did they first do shield effects? actual Fx? TNG? in previous showings of TMP era movies (I~IV), any hits didn't show the bubble, just blacked the paint on the models, right?
maybe they didn't even imagine the bubble effect until they started on TNG? maybe a reset on what they orginally thought of how shields worked IC?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
If mymemory serves me correctly, they did show a shielding effect in ST TMP. V'eger's first energy torpedo was stopped by the shields, and the fx shot shows the ball of energy dispersing like it had just hit a plexiglass bubble. It does not show the actuall blue tinted bubble like tng, ds9,voyager etc, but i think that would qualify as a shield effect, as the outline of the bubble was shown in the impact. I think they also showed the shields in ST6. When hit by chang's torpedos, the Enterprise shows some burn marks, but there is also a subtle effect that looks like the shields being outlined. Strangely enough, the slight outline appears skin hugging!!!
Might we have skin hugging shields 80 yrs before Nemisis?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
This is probably a fx stylization thing, but everytime an alien ship in Enterprise, ( because enterprise did not have shields, and therefore no effect), got hit with a weapon, the fx showed almost exclusively skin hugging shields. Hmmmm......
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
About the Endgame armor, allow me to take a page from the game Star Trek Elite Force. In it, the hero's "hazard suit" had a special belt which could store all his gadgets in a transporter buffer a la TNG Relics. When he needed a particular weapon, it would be beamed into his hands. Perhaps those emitters on Adm. Janeways shuttle and Voyager just teleported the armor onto the ship. Although the replicator explanation would seem more practical and it would also explain how the armor appeared to be in one piece. Hmm...
Edit: Memory Alpha seems to agree with me partially. Also Rick Sternbach seems to have implied that there could also be the use of nano technology.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Mmmm, haven't played Elite force in a while. Think i've lost it actually.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Actually, i would love to start a thread about the new trek video game that has come out for the PS2,seems as it is quite good, but i don't know where to post it. There does not seem to be a forum marked "Video Game Mischief" Anyone know where to post it?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Sean - Took the words out of my mouth. I started a thread over at the DITL forums (which isn't nearly as nice as Flare. We rule.) about those "polarized hull plates" and the blue glow you see around the Ent when it gets hit. Some people seem to think the 'polarization' is some form of SIF, others are more "it's a TV show" (I hate that repsonse). I've got a shot or two of the blue glow appearing even when the plates aren't polarized, though (they're taken by surprise) so I think it's just the SIF (it *must* have one or it'd be ripped apart...spindly little pylons and such...)
Oh, and I'd post it in General Trek.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I think the effects of the hull plating were actually some sort of electrical discharge caused from the impact of weapons against the hull. The plating is after-all electricly charged, and i'm sure that energy striking the hull would make it release some of it's electrical energy.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Perhaps, perhaps not. EM radiation has to be of the right frequency to dislodge electrons in any given metal; hence aluminum in the microwave arcs, and gallium (something with gallium in it anyway) is used in solar cells. If the particle weapons shot at Enterprise aren't of the right frequency, no electricity would appear. Also, as I said, I have shots of the glow occurring when the plating was *not* polarized, so I think in reality it was just an FX thing - "let's make a cool blue glowy thing! Dude, hit this bong!" Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Back to hull breaches...(oh joy)
I was thinking. Very rarely do we see ships with pieces of hull blown away, aside from the dominion war, and a select few episodes here and there. Yet, we constantly hear of a breach on deck 10,11, or 35 or what not ( especially in Voyager). That is probably because the fx people dont want to constantly damage and repair a model. I think that most hull breaches anyways are just small fractures, like when an area of dry skin on your knuckle splits open, and not like cuts that you get when you skin your knee. That would explain why we normally dont see anything, as they could simply be small splits in the hull, possibly the size of a hi-liter. That would still qualify as a hull breach, as the hull has.... well, breached.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
What color of the spectrum would the vaporised metal have from the hull?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Excuse me if i sound dumb, but is that a hi-liter joke?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
No, no excuses damnit, if your going to sound dumb you have to do it like the rest of us!
No, sadly enough, it wasn't. It was a flash back to my high school days and my Introduction to Physical Science class and the stuff we burned to see what colour it was. This was the rough part of the class for a color blind guy. My lab partner was hot though, so it was allllllriiiiight.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Oh yes, i vaugly remember doing that experiment in chemistry lab eariler this year. I lost an eye brow and some arm hair.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
What color did it burn?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
We couldn't burn anything in high school chemistry. The school chemistry lab's gas system was 50 years old and nobody was sure if turning the main valve would cause a disastrous leak or not.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hey I did that experiment last week in college. Lot of pretty colors.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Sounds like my old university.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
It turned purple and red, i think for Cu and Mg
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Sounds like my youth.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I am actually not comfortable using the bunsen burner. kind of silly to be afraid of, but a nice addition to my list of phobias. Today though, we had to do a lab revolving around the MELTING OF ICE!!! The most R-tarded thing i have ever done it is.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I was in a university honors-level biology class. We had a lab one day which revolved around exhaling through straws into beakers of phenol; the carbon dioxide turned it from red to yellow. I believe we also held up a bottle of plant extract to see how it was green when you saw the light reflecting off of it, but red when you saw the light *through* it. I couldn't believe I didn't choose that week to skip...
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I was in a university honors-level biology class. We had a lab one day which revolved around exhaling through straws into beakers of phenol; the carbon dioxide turned it from red to yellow. I believe we also held up a bottle of plant extract to see how it was green when you saw the light reflecting off of it, but red when you saw the light *through* it. I couldn't believe I didn't choose that week to skip...
So how many idiots managed to inhale the phenol? Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Is that like asking how many people are dead in the cemetery?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
The idiot I was paired with got some in his mouth, I think. He told me after 3 labs that he hated science with a passion.
I asked him what his major was.
He replied, biology.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I remember I had bio lab where my group worked with bacteria and this one chick in my group spilled a tube of salmonella all over her notebook. I almost went bonkers but she told me not to say anything as she cleaned the spill. Then we all sat in silence for the rest of the lab.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Why the hell did you listen to her?!?? Salmonella isn't a nice thing to be messing around with.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I took bio in 8th grade, so the most dangerous thing we worked with were litimus strips and ph paper. And maybe some HCL, but i think only the teacher handled that. i remember we did a lab about how easily a disease can spread. We were given cups of water, and one person had special chemicals in their water, but i dont remember what. The point was to go around and pour half of our liquid into others cups, and have them pour half of what was in theirs in theirs back into ours. Depending on who each person had come into contact with, the "disease" would be spread about. I think i was the original carrier, and about 2/3 of the class was infected. Anyways, some idiot decided to drink his liquid, and got violently ill, upchucking on the classroom floor. This lead the teacher ( a complete neat freak, who used oxy clean on everything, and even liked the smell of it) to freak out. it was quite funny.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Wow, what a treasure trove of nostalgia this thread turned out to be...When I was in 8th grade, we had a mineral identification unit in science class, and if we suspected it was calcite we had a 10% solution of HCl to test it with...class clown spilled it all over his arm because he was disregarding the safety rules we'd had to learn. Wasn't too bad, I don't think, just got a bit red and irritated, but he freaked out in terror and yelled that it was burning his arm off. I'd *never* seen Mrs. Wormwood that angry at anyone before...
Your cups...did they change color when they were infected?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Pink
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Probably the 'disease' was phenolphthalein, then. I'd imagine the 'clean' cup solution to be some fairly safe and common alkaline solution... If the pink turned colorless again after awhile, then it would be something strongly basic like sodium hydroxide, but I don't think the kid would've merely thrown up if he'd drunk that.
Actually, I don't think phenolphthalein would make you throw up at that dosage - it's been used as a laxative for ages. Maybe whatever was in the clear solution...
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I hate biology with a passion. Which is why I'm taking geological engineering. I get to play with dirt and destroy things. Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I believe that all of the liquid was clear, but only turned pink when the teacher put some other solution in it. She told us not to drink it from the start, which is why the kid drank it. This year, he "accidently" splashed HCL into a girl's eye. Talk about ouch...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The only experiments I remember from school were the one where the teacher dropped a chunk of potassium in a bowl of water and watched us jump out of our skins and the one where you simulate a chip pan fire and demonstrate what happens when you try and put it out with water.
Chemistry explosions are fun!
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
I got to play with viruses, plasmids and prions and infect things with them for my final year project.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I find it funny when people think i can give them exzema. It does help fend off some of the jocks though....
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Yeah, phenolphthalein is clear in the presence of acids, and pink the presence of bases, and it's pretty safe to work with, so that's what I'd figure it was. Maybe the guy threw up just from the taste of the 'thalein and whatever else it was...
Ritten: Don't you mean a chunk of sodium?
Ginger: We did a lab sort of like that. But it was really, really boring...the lame TA didn't explain anything or how it worked, it was basically just following instructions on pipetting, cooling, and incubating tubes of fluids and then culturing them. It was a demonstration using E. coli, I think, and plasmids for resisting a certain type of antibiotic. Spent 40 minutes sitting around and doing *nothing* at one point as the TA had no other experiment for us to do in the meanwhile...
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Dan, do you mean Reverend?
To continue that though.....
Salt and water Dan would seem to mix nicely, or we have really screwed up oceans......
My lab partner was still hot and I didn't pay much attention to the experiments.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I dont have to worry about the lab partner thing. The class has an odd number of kids in it, so I am usually the odd man out. I just get paired with an existing group or work alone. I occasionally get paired with my ex-girlfriend, or this weird goth kid who likes knives, but its only 40 mins every week, so i dont really care.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Oh how I miss the days of 40 minute labs...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Don't you mean a chunk of sodium?
No, defiantly potassium. Fire and spitting and lots of noise. My chemistry teacher was very big on practical demonstrations, hence the "here's what not to do if the chip pan catches fire" demonstration. That ceiling probably still has the scorch marks.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I remember one high school bio class where my teacher used the example of Data to explain the difference between living things and non-living things. She stated that Data didn't count as a lifeforms because he lacked organic parts. That answer always bugged me and I regret I never corrected her.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yeah, last year, my earth science teacher was a trekkie, this year, my lab teacher is......well.......tainted to the dark side......
he has light sabers on his classroom walls for pete sakes. sad, sad man.... I'll show him. i'll use my replica type II phaser pistol to melt some magnesium i will..... Me takes my medication and goes to bed.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
There is always the next class reunion.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
What I remember of HS chemistry is passing notes with Melissa Mikolaycik & Kim Fletcher on the other side of the room trying to get them to have sex with me, & sitting next to Dave Hornak as he told me about his new pet iguana. He pulled out all these fantasy names to name it & I was like "Why don't you just name it Bob?" He broke down laughing for some reasons & then named it Bob. We did some experiment with...IO think it was zinc & hydrogen peroxide? Drop the zinc in, wait a bit, & then Werkie gave us a long match told us to slowly put it in the beaker. FOOMF!! Dave & I were the first to get to that point & everyone looked up in shock. We were stunned for a moment & then went, "Again! Again!!"
Oh, I was also drawing silly little pictures of cartoon characters in the League of Science. Each one had a scientific superpower: Gravity Girl, Specific Gravity Lad, Subspace Field Compression Boy, The Ionic Woman, that sort of gig.
Posted by HopefulNebula (Member # 1933) on :
High school honors chem ruled. This teacher looked and sounded like Roz from Monsters, Inc.
College intro to chem? Sucked. Evil evil prof. Got quietly asked to leave because he got caught asking students for bribes. He was bald and his head got all sweaty whenever he talked about chemistry...
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
My HS chem teacher was nasty. What I mean is she did not have any concept of personal hygiene. This was around 1990, and she had a 70s afro (on a white woman!), and she reeked. You just hoped she never raised her arms, because the areas under her armpits were stained green. GREEN! Blech.
I'm not exaggerating, either!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Mine was an actual chemist, that is a chemist that used to work high up in pharmaceuticals but turned to teaching later in life because the pay was better...and his wife was head of the art department. On a similar note, my tech (woodwork) teacher was a former British Aerospace engineer. Such was the state of British industry at the time.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
OK, apparently something's wrong with my memory, because I could've *sworn* it was pure metallic sodium (not ionic sodium like in Na+Cl- --or have I got the formula for salt wrong too? *panics*) that, when it comes into contact with water, explodes and/or spits fire and light and so on.
I spent a lot of my music classes drawing starship designs (mostly not Trek-style) on graph paper with a friend, and inventing specifications for them. I actually paid *attention* in science classes... Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yes, sodium does do that...though as I recall you usually need to ignite it yourself to make it flame after you drop it in water, depending on how much you use. Now look at where Sodium is on the periodic table, then move directly down and see what elements come after it.
Observe. Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
quote: (from Dan Butler)
Ginger: We did a lab sort of like that. But it was really, really boring...the lame TA didn't explain anything or how it worked, it was basically just following instructions on pipetting, cooling, and incubating tubes of fluids and then culturing them. It was a demonstration using E. coli, I think, and plasmids for resisting a certain type of antibiotic. Spent 40 minutes sitting around and doing *nothing* at one point as the TA had no other experiment for us to do in the meanwhile... [/QB]
Nah, I did that in my 1st year. The project was more about prion propogation, like in CJD. Tedious, but it had its playing god moments. Also, there was a chemistry professor in the first year who reminded the whole class of Mr Toad (big, very round, sweats alot, stench you could smell several hundred yards, thinning white hair in a sort of middle-ages style, and a round warty face with little round glasses. Always wore a grey suit, and once pretended to have a girlfriend - a lie so transparent he had none of us fooled). For some reason we tried to slip "motor car" and "washer woman" into other wise innocuous statements.
One thought that pops into my head about the NX-01 taking all that punishement and still functional with few deaths compared to later ships is the size of the NX-01. The size to crew ratio was very low compared to the later ships, so maybe there were large areas of, not wasted space, but stuff that was not habitable, or essential to the sips structure.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
See, I had him panic, damn clergy anyway.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
My chem teacher is cool. Short, 39 ish, soft spoken. I think she used to work at the Roswell Cancer institute or something. My lab teacher though........
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
These days I'm lucky to understand what the lab instructors are saying. One of my instructors for a soils lab speaks so softly and with such a thick accent I have no idea what he's going on about....
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Dirt, for Christ's sake, DIRT!!!! Could be Joe, maybe a relative.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I actually found the study of dirt to be quite abit easier than the study of how chemicals interact.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Loam. I love that word. It sounds like a toy. Oh yeah, cuz of "Floam"...
My lab TA was South Korean and didn't have too bad of an accent, he just didn't seem to give a proper crap about if anybody actually learned anything. I think he spent most of the labs working on his own classwork. Unless the lab administrator was present...Then he was the model of scholarly diligence.
I had an English teacher once, who was quite odd. Kept the class interested in Macbeth, anyway, when you never quite new when he was going to start reading in an entirely different voice and rhythm, or stop talking and freeze solid until somebody in the class read the next word. Once I was taking a quiz on the Norse words in Beowulf, (or were they Old English?? No...I think Old Norse...) and when I said out loud "Mr. B, I'm gonna just turn this in and go home and cry, ok?" he said, in a quiet, gentle voice, "You aren't going to go home and cry. You are going to go home and make yourself a bologna-and-cheese sandwich." ....
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I had a Chinese aerodynamics professor that not only spoke with a very hard-to-understand accent, but he was also pretty much deaf. In order to hear our questions, he had a transmitter box that he had to put in the middle of the room that broadcast to his huge hearing aids. Combine a thick Chinese-English accent with the muffled sounds of a deaf person trying to speak, and you'll get close to the frustration we had trying to understand everything in that class.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I had an American textiles teacher who had a better English accent than I did and a Danish art teacher with a definite American twang...go figure.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Ever witness a Chinese fellow speak English with a German accent? Nigh incomprehensible, I tell you.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No but I went to school with a half Malaysian Indian with a heavy Scottish accent. One of the benefits of growing up on an army camp.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Last year we had an exchange student from poland by the name of Kuba. Cool kid, liked by everyone.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Paulo from Brasil and Trina from Denmark were exchange students I knew. How Paulo got in to the program one would never know, a drug addled smart ass comic.
Trina said that when she did her year in Spain and the one in the US she would still have to go back and do those two years in her schooling there, it didn't count. Is it still that way?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
When I was a sophomore in high school, we had an exchange student from France named Olivier. He was every bit as French as our stereotypes would lead you to believe...*never* got any better at English, either. The Brazilian guy, Bruno, he went from 'thick accent' to 'remarkably fluent' over the year, but that Frenchie still made you furrow your brow in concentration to understand him. I just think he didn't much care how good his accent was...
No, it's not that way to my knowledge; Olivier and Bruno's credits counted. I don't know about Elena, she was from Finland and I never asked her - she said she spoke German and Spanish in addition to English and Finnish but when I tried to strike up a conversation in German she just looked at me and then turned away. So we didn't talk much Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I believe the credits are counted. I have a friend that will be spending out JR year in Italy, and even though she had to doube up on some classes this year, she doesnot have to take others, because she will take them over seas. I would love to know what her boyfriend thinks about this. All those foreign boys, interested in cute girls, a description which she deffinately qualifies for.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Trina said that for her school system, or country, that it didn't count. Mind you, some of you weren't thought of at that time, not even as a twinkle in your daddy's eye, and rules may very well have changed in the last 25 years....
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
"not even as a twinkle in your daddy's eye"
Yeah you would be right, seeing as my dad is blind in one eye. And myopic and colorblind in the other, which has been passed down to me....
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
So you've got your father's eyes, just like Topper Harley?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I may be a bit too young for this one. Who is/was Topper Harley?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: So you've got your father's eyes, just like Topper Harley?
"He has my father's eyes..." "GOMEZ. Take those out of his mouth...!"
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
The Adams Family? I have a friend that looks like cousin it, or will in a few years.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: I may be a bit too young for this one. Who is/was Topper Harley?
clicky and just for fun...clicky 2...though you really might be too young for that first clip. Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Ah well, I am not too well versed in cinema. Lets see, the last movie I saw in theatres was Mission Impossible 3 nearly 2 years ago.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
You paid to see that? Well, you were 13. When I was 13, I paid to see all sorts of awful things, like Crocodile Dundee II.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I went to see Lost in Space in theaters...
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
^Me too! Power Rangers, also. Man, my mis-spent youth... Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yeah, I went to see it with my girlfriend, actually, she dragged me to see it. Whew, thats how long Its been since I was associated with a girl, my first (and sadly only) lady friend too.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fabrux: ^Me too! Power Rangers, also. Man, my mis-spent youth...
Oh God, don't remind me.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
About power rangers. They seem to have got infinately crappier over the years. I remember when i used to watch it like 8,9,maybe 10 years ago, the series were good. i was watching a new episode with my brother the other day, and I was appauled. The red ranger looked like he was reading off of a teleprompter. It sucked. And mighty morphin power rangers the movie was pretty good. At least as a six year old i thought it was good, and i think I still do.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
So, what was the bluish glowy thingy anyway?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I ended up at the Power Rangers article on Wikipedia during a marathon recursive-clicking session...there have been a *hell* of a lot of incarnations! With different themes and a canon all its own and crossovers and things...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
My worst cinema experience trumps all of yours. Under severe protest, I was dragged to see a Vin Diesel film where he becomes a baby sitter (I forget the title.) As the pattern goes the dragging was done by a female friend, but I only agreed on the condition that we see two films that day and I chose the second one.
I chose Sin City, therefore I won.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Ah, the Pacifier. Funny, but only because deisel seemed to have no idea what to do with kids.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
'but did you get your nose wet, AFTER? Hmm...?'
'Hehehehehe, Well....'
'EWWWWWWWWWW!'
'The Internet is for Pr0n! The Intern...'
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I am so confused that I cant come up with a smart-ass remark for that one. Darn you.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I saw the Fantastic Four movie in theaters, it was crap.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Yeah..any female friend who wished to see that movie probably had a stroke during Sin City...or several.
"He made me WAAAAAAAAATCH!"
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Actually she's quite blood thirsty. Her favourite flick is Ginger Snaps. She just has trouble with the concept that just because a trailer makes you laugh, doesn't mean the film will too.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
So you mean that the trailer can be perfect but the movie still suck? I should never believe what I see in films. But what if the trailer sucks, or makes you question established facts. **glances suspiciously at Star Trek XI Trailer**
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It can go either way. A skilful editor can assemble various scenes from a crap film to make it look better than it is, equally an editor that doesn't understand the material can grossly misrepresent the product. A few examples off the top of my head would be the original Phantom Menace trailer that actually makes it look like it's going to be a proper Star Wars film and I think the original trailer for The Usual Suspects was shockingly bad and had little to do with what the film was about. That tends to happen when the film-makers don't get a say in the marketing side of things.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I remember seeing a trailer someone made for Fight Club that made it sound like a light-hearted romantic comedy. They even got the John Leader voiceover down pat.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That's different. That's intentionally taking something out of context, like so. Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Most of the long-version, 5-minute-or-more trailers I've seen *ruin* movies...the funny or action-packed parts are *all* stuffed into the trailer.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yeah, the less the give you is sometimes better. I'd much rather see a 30 sec trailer and see just enough to get me hooked than see a 5 min trailer that condenses the movie and tells me pretty much all i need to know.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
An example of a good trailer... Transformers, the hit of this summer. The trailer had basically nothing in it, yet hooked millions of people, and was the most downloaded trailer on yahoo videos. I cant wait for transformers 2.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I just saw Voyager "Macrocosm". And they say Enterprise was bad.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
On balance I'd say Voyager had more good episodes than bad compared to Enterprise.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No, it just had more episodes in general. About 60 more, give or take.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Enterprise had it's share of good episodes. A very small share, mind you, but still a share of good ones.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Rev: Yeah, I know, I was talking about a ratio, good to bad, not number of good overall. This way we compensate for the difference in episode numbers Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
"Damage" and " In a Mirror Darkly" are some good hours of Enterprise television.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Yes, Coto did a good job once he got stuck in, but there are a couple of good stories in the first seasons.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Broken Bow perhaps?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Having watched on Sci-Fi channel I thought there were some good eps. Or it was going on my like lichen.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
"Or it was going on my like lichen."
What???
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
"Growing on me" you mean? Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
No, I have had a bad set of Mondays for a few weeks, 21 Mondays in a row, so it was going on me, wide putrid streams of nastiness.
I'll and R and a W please.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I like ENterprise on mondays on sci-fi. When the series started, I was just in fourth grade, and didn't look much farther past the big battles and the cool fx. ANd those eps which I did try to understand, I did so rather poorly. So, it's nice to watchi it again. WOw, if Ent had continued, this year would've been it's final season....
Both DS9 and Ent are on Yotube now, so I can watch them when ever I want pretty much
quote:Originally posted by Sean: I like ENterprise on mondays on sci-fi. When the series started, I was just in fourth grade....
Let's see, fourth grade (1983/1984).... I was watching stuff like Transformers, Knight Rider, GIJoe, Star Trek & BSG reruns.....
waitaminute....
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I would have loved to have been around when Transformers originally came out. I am a Transformers collector, and those original toys are expensive now.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Let's see, fourth grade (1983/1984).... I was watching stuff like Transformers, Knight Rider, GIJoe, Star Trek & BSG reruns.....
waitaminute....
Well played. And you & me both, mister.
When I hit middle school & early high school, Saturday afternoons were great, for WWOR Channel 9 out of Secaucus had 6 hours of NBC/Universal shows on: 2 hours each of Airwolf, Knight Rider, & A-Team, from noon to 6.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
When I was in 4th grade, I think I mostly watched Ninja Turtles and occasionally Star Wars or TNG...I wasn't a very nerdy kid, I guess. My brother and I spent most of our childhood playing massive amounts of videogames until our hands were literally blistered.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
So, that would be N64, maybe Playstation, or was it Sega genisis? Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
When Dan was in fourth grade? Probably SNES or Genesis (I think Dan's the same age as me...).
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
He's about 22, so that sounds right.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Children, children, could it be satan? Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Where?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Where!?? ZOMGZ I love that guy! (Sorry about the major use of "zomg" lately, but I swear, I'm using it ironically!)
NES, SNES, and N64 when I was a bit older. That was *really* bad for the blisters - there was some game that involved spinning the analog stick and that bastard had ridges on it that really tore up the skin.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Mario 64. I get to enjoy growing up with the playstation line. First the PS1, then the PS2, then the PSP, and hopefully in the next few years...the PS3.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Maybe by the time you get a PS3, they'll have games for it.... zing!
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I had Pong.....
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Did she have a ping?
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Yep, my parents said that pong was one of the best games they ever played, and is the only one, except for driving games with steering wheel peripherals, that she has ever willingly played.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Ah Mario64, spinning that Bowser.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
The first video game I really got into was Spyro the dragon on the original Playstation.
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