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Farragut-type: the TOS Miranda?
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,5,22,20,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">June 22, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:39 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It’s an obvious question, sure, but I was having one of those r/ShowerThoughts and a few things occurred to me. There’s still ages to go in Belgium v Romania, I’m not really watching it, so I thought I’d bore what few of us are left here with my thoughts!<br /><br />Now, there are pros & cons…<br /><br />PRO:<br />1. The registry. The USS Farragut is NCC-1647; while that could make it a Constitution, it’s not impossible it could make it a Reliant too (three have registries in the NCC-18xx range, and we’ve assumed ships are of the same class based on lesser proximity of registries before this!)<br />2. Sure the placing of the nacelles, and the pylon configuration, is very different: but so then is that on the Constitution-refit…<br /><br />… BUT. #2 above leads me on to the cons:<br /><br />CON:<br />1. The Constitution-refit, nacelles and pylons aside, didn’t really change all that much otherwise. Sure there were significant internal reconfigurations, but by and large externally the superstructure - primary hull/saucer, secondary hull/engineering section, and to a lesser extent the neck - didn’t really change all that much apart from in detailing. <br /><br />But the Miranda-refit - if the Miranda IS a refit - has a significant superstructure aft of the bridge, containing shuttle bays, impulse engines, presumably the warp core. And this superstructure rarely appears on many fan-made TOS Miranda designs, and it’s not on the Farragut-type. And if you apply my logic about the Constitution-refit above, shouldn’t it be, if the F-type IS the TOS-M?<br />2. Memory Alpha suggests the F-type is the Bellerophon-class, - but is unable to provide a valid source for being so… <br /><br />Thoughts? Does it matter? If they said it was, there’re plenty who’d choose to ignore it, and NOT just because they’re incel edgelords who hate nuTrek mainly because it’s got too many women and ethnics and gays in for their liking.<br /><br />On the other hand, if we don’t get an answer to this perennial question now, would we ever? Probably not, and that definitely doesn’t really matter - there've been too many over-contrived attempts to answer such questions canonically recently, and not just in Trek (he said, cursing former Doctor Who showrunner Chris Chibnall and his Timeless Child bollocks…). <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Shik</b> <br /><small>Member # 343</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,5,22,23,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">June 22, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:41 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Discoverse is an AU no matter what they try to claim, so they could say whatever they want. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,5,26,1,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">June 26, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:42 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I have always felt that the Miranda class Reliant as seen in TWOK always looked that way (i.e. it was not refit from a TOS-style look like the Enterprise was.) There is some evidence to support this hypothesis, but nothing ironclad. It's just how I feel, especially after seeing the abundance of them in DS9, but no TMP refit Connies to go with them. <br /><br />As for the SNW Farragut being a TOS Miranda? See above. While I don't have a problem with them making the Farragut a non-Connie despite Greg Jein's T-Negative list which was used as gospel in the past, I think the lazy kitbash they did use doesn't really qualify as a TOS Miranda. I think if they were really trying to go that route, they would have made the design look more like the Reliant instead of just the SNW Enterprise saucer with some underslung nacelles and just a hint of secondary hull underneath. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Guardian 2000</b> <br /><small>Member # 743</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,10,3,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 10, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:26 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dukhat:<br /><strong> I have always felt that the Miranda class Reliant as seen in TWOK always looked that way (i.e. it was not refit from a TOS-style look like the Enterprise was.) There is some evidence to support this hypothesis, but nothing ironclad. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes.<br /><br />In my estimation, the TMP ship style was not new in 2270, and the TOS ship style observed in the 2250s and 2260s was actually the product of an even earlier decade. Based on chronology of observed registries, the Constitution Class was probably first built in the 2210s ( <a href="https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/the-st3-screen-and-hull-pressure-compartments.315171/" target="_blank">possibly even in a slightly different configuration</a> ).<br /><br />Given the existence of Entente, NCC-2120, in 2271/2, we can easily point to a 2250s-ish build time for the Lantree and Reliant. In principle, then, there's no reason why Pike's Enterprise couldn't have left Talos IV and rendezvoused with a Miranda Class ship. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,10,20,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 10, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If there never was a “TOS Miranda” - an idea I’ll admit has a certain appeal - then it would also answer one of those perennial chicken-and-egg questions: where did that nacelle design first appear - on the Constitution-refit or the Miranda? And the answer is, the latter.<br /><br />And from there, it goes a long way toward explaining why the C-refit didn’t have anything like the longevity of the Miranda: perhaps refitting the Cs was a way to extend the life of ageing spaceframes built using obsolete principles and concepts, until the Excelsiors and Constellations came online… <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,10,21,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 10, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:17 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lee:<br /><strong> If there never was a “TOS Miranda” - an idea I’ll admit has a certain appeal - then it would also answer one of those perennial chicken-and-egg questions: where did that nacelle design first appear - on the Constitution-refit or the Miranda? And the answer is, the latter.<br /><br />And from there, it goes a long way toward explaining why the C-refit didn’t have anything like the longevity of the Miranda: perhaps refitting the Cs was a way to extend the life of ageing spaceframes built using obsolete principles and concepts, until the Excelsiors and Constellations came online… </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So there's two schools of thought on the subject.<br /><br />1. The TOS Enterprise was refit into the TMP Enterprise, which was the prototype for all new Connie refits and Connie newbuilds going forward as of 2270.<br /><br />2. The TOS Enterprise was refit into the TMP Enterprise to 'catch up' technology-wise, because there were already Connie refits/newbuilds during TOS, and we just never saw them. <br /><br /><br />Where does the Miranda class fit into this? Putting aside for the moment the idea that it might be a refit of an older TOS-style hull and just assuming it was new as of post-TMP, that would go far in explaining why we saw a huge proliferation of them during the decades between TWOK and pre-TNG, but not a single Connie refit (which would make option 2 more likely than option 1, despite the idea in TMP that this refit design was brand-new.) <br /><br />So the hypothesis would then be that the Miranda class was brand-new as of the TMP era, and the TOS Connies/refit Connies/newbuild Connies were on their way out (which would also explain why the Enterprise-A was decommissioned so early.) Because if the Miranda class had been refit from an older TOS-style hull like the Enterprise was, then why did we see tons of Mirandas during the Dominion War but not a single Connie, if they were contemporaries? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,11,18,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 11, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Exactly. I don’t think there’s a lot of difference between your (1) and (2) in terms of their implications. Especially given the number of Connies, refit or OG, is in flux, in doubt, in contention.<br /><br />And while it’s no longer safe to say that “not seeing them means they didn’t exist”, not now the apparent long life of the California-class is in the mix, the idea that the Miranda has certain properties of longevity, durability, adaptability that the Connies lacked even after extensive refitting (or, yes, being built from scratch to the updated specs) has a certain appeal.<br /><br />- We don’t know for certain any new build Connies exist<br />- We know at least one OG wasn’t refitted, possibly for posterity! <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,12,17,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 12, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:48 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lee:<br /><strong> Exactly. I don’t think there’s a lot of difference between your (1) and (2) in terms of their implications. Especially given the number of Connies, refit or OG, is in flux, in doubt, in contention.<br /><br />And while it’s no longer safe to say that “not seeing them means they didn’t exist”, not now the apparent long life of the California-class is in the mix, the idea that the Miranda has certain properties of longevity, durability, adaptability that the Connies lacked even after extensive refitting (or, yes, being built from scratch to the updated specs) has a certain appeal.<br /><br />- We don’t know for certain any new build Connies exist<br />- We know at least one OG wasn’t refitted, possibly for posterity! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only other refit Connie we ever saw was the Enterprise-A, and even after seeing it again in PIC, we still have no idea if it was a brand-new ship as of TVH, an older newbuild ship that was renamed, or an even older TOS ship that was refit AND renamed. My gut tells me that it was an older ship, since there would be no reason to decommission a seven-year old ship after TUC. <br /><br />As for the California class, I don't think it's all that old. Mike McMahon stated that he wanted the ship to look like something that would have realistically been introduced in TNG's 5th season (2368.) So they would only be around 15 years old at the start of Lower Decks (2380.) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,12,21,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 12, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:03 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Maybe there were no other refits, but that just feels unlikely… somehow. But as we don’t KNOW, it renders the question - of whether all the refits (we assume existed) were all just refits, and/or whether there were from-scratch new builds in the design as well - completely moot.<br /><br />What about the -A? It was in a right state when they got it. Was that a: freshly-post-refit right state; a newly-built-ship in a right state because it’d not had a shakedown cruise yet; or, an existing refit that was just old and beaten-up after possibly as many years under the belt as the -null would have had if it hadn’t been destroyed?<br /><br />And are we overlooking the fact that the -null, once the pride of the fleet, was by TWoK an Academy training ship?<br /><br />As for the age of the Cali, putting it as TNG era at most seems like the best explanation, and we can tell ourselves that the Rubidoux and the Solvang (both destroyed, both registries in the 12xxx range) were either mistakes or were meant to be 72xxx ones. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,13,2,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 13, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:44 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I would love a future production to show TMP-era Connies. Apparently the upcoming Section 31 TV movie is supposed to take place...<br /><br /><br />Spoilers<br /><br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />$<br />...around the 2330's during the Lost Era, so perhaps we'll see some? But probably not.<br /><br />And yeah, the Enterprise-nil relegated to a training ship (and then Morrow wanting to decommission it because he 'felt her day was over') seems to indicate the status of these vessels as aged.<br /><br />I seem to recall that there might have been at least one or two more Connies in Spacedock during TVH, and of course the destroyed Ent-nil from TSFS used as a derelict in BoBW, although you couldn't see either ship fully:<br /><br /><a href="https://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/movie-04/screencaps/voyage-home-2021/chapter-17/st-tvh-remaster-bluray-1335.jpg" target="_blank">https://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/movie-04/screencaps/voyage-home-2021/chapter-17/st-tvh-remaster-bluray-1335.jpg</a><br /><br /><a href="https://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/movie-04/screencaps/voyage-home-2021/chapter-17/st-tvh-remaster-bluray-1337.jpg" target="_blank">https://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/movie-04/screencaps/voyage-home-2021/chapter-17/st-tvh-remaster-bluray-1337.jpg</a><br /><br /><a href="https://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season4/4x01/the-best-of-both-worlds-part-two-hd-168.jpg" target="_blank">https://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season4/4x01/the-best-of-both-worlds-part-two-hd-168.jpg</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,13,12,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 13, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There were also the (apparent) outlines of refit <i>Constitution</i>s on the Operation Retrieve charts in TUC, if you want to count those. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,15,17,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 15, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:21 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Pros and cons really. It’s a cut scene. It in all seriousness shows them still using FLIP CHARTS in 300 years time. The names feel a bit, I dunno. And they complicate the number-of-Connies debate, not that I’m particularly dogmatic about that or even really pretend to follow it - or care! <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Guardian 2000</b> <br /><small>Member # 743</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,21,17,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 21, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:24 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Regarding Constitution versus Miranda, I found and noted a couple of decades ago that the Miranda has about the same volume but is much more volumetrically efficient, with no bottleneck between hulls. <br /><br />(Imagine you want to install some bulky doodad in Science Lab 3 . . . bringing it in by cargo pod to the shuttlebay, you store it in the cargo area just forward of the bay. But how do you get it up to Deck Six? Well, you're gonna have to bring it up through the neck, if you're in a Connie. If you're in a Miranda, you just wheel it down the corridor.)<br /><br />My conclusion was that the Constitution was originally built that way because of a lack of core ejection, whereas the Miranda could indeed eject her core. The fairly unique Federation saucer-and-secondary-hull design is something of a holdover from this original necessity, perhaps retaining some other utility in the direction of their design evolution. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,21,19,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 21, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:30 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wasn't there something in the TNG Tech Manual about how the E-D's shape (I think especially the cutout at the back) has to do with the efficiency of the warp bubble? Perhaps, because the <i>Constitution</i> ships are meant to be zipping all over the Federation all the time, they're designed in a way that maximizes the efficiency of their warp drives, even if it's not the most efficient on the inside, while the <i>Miranda</i> is meant to go to a place and sit there doing science or whatever for an extended time, so they were less concerned with the warp drive being perfect and more concerned with things like moving equipment around inside. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,23,21,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 23, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:36 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There may be something in this. Particularly the bit about long slender necks being literal bottlenecks for moving stuff around. And quite a lot of the classes are quite squat with little/no neck. And then it occurred to me: what’s one other class that doesn’t seem to have had the longevity we might have expected? The Ambassador. Which is possibly the most Constitution-like class ever.<br /><br />Perhaps the Connie and the Ambie were like… I dunno, hard to think of a good analogy. Like the F-22 Raptor: far too expensive for what it could do. What’s a good fighter aircraft that just wasn’t as versatile as less good ones?<br /><br />Incidentally, there’s a YouTube channel called We Travel By Night (I don’t know why it’s called that) which does really good looking CGI videos. In one, he looks at the neck of the C-refit. It’s actually quite difficult to make the structure fit everything that needs to be in there: two torpedo bays and a usable turbolift shaft, for one. And there’s another where he shows that everything - engineering and shuttlebay - in the secondary hull isn’t much better in that regard. He’s far from perfect: he genuinely said that he could pick and choose what was canon according to his own preferences!<br /><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/a3d9cK83gZQ" target="_blank">The Enterprise Dorsal Problem</a><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/wfln88jPrZc" target="_blank">Exploring The Secondary Hull Of The Refit Enterprise</a><br /><a href="https://youtu.be/wBGIC6jnlNM" target="_blank">The Torpedo Room(s) Puzzle</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,26,1,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 26, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:32 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't think I buy his arguments about the turbolift. For one thing, why does he keep calling the neck "the dorsal"? That's not what "dorsal" means. But, more to the point, his whole argument seems to be based on the idea that the warp core runs all the way straight down the neck, which... maybe it just doesn't? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,27,10,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 27, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:56 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yeah it seems an odd hill for him to die on. He often raises interesting points, but his starting assumptions are often questionable. Pretty sure there’s a whole video where he talks about the TOS-era fleet and just says that anything in DSC or SNW isn’t canon. Sorry chum, you don’t get to make that sort of decision… Ha. Just had a thought: we never did find out what happened to Identity Crisis, with his FASA obsession and dogmatic cherry-picking of what was relevant, did we..?<br /><br />Regarding the turbolifts, looking at his various suggestions, I wondered: why do they have to stay “upright”? Why not go up the neck (in the diagonal shaft option) AT a diagonal? Relying on the inertial dampeners that MUST surely be in operation - given the delta-v the lifts must go through to get anywhere else in these huge ships so quickly - to keep people from falling over?<br /><br />In fact if you really think about it, why have gravity in the shafts at all? We know they do, plenty of examples, but why generate artificial gravity (however they do it) just to create something to fall down? We know it can be varied by location, it’s not a whole ship solution (to paraphrase the Tech Manual, how does the artificial gravity work? It works just fine, thank you). Maybe even in later ships the overlapping of artigrav fields leads to inversions like on the NX-01… <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,27,12,53,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 27, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:53 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, I'm certainly not going to begrudge him ignoring all the new Trek shows, since I do that myself. That being said, though, including them would make the answer simple, since they've established that the interior of the ship is 90% empty space, with turbolifts just zooming around inside it. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Guardian 2000</b> <br /><small>Member # 743</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,28,4,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 28, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:39 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TSN:<br /><strong> For one thing, why does he keep calling the neck "the dorsal"? That's not what "dorsal" means. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, that's what it was traditionally called when I was getting into tech fandom. I didn't use the term to (a) avoid confusion and (b) play on "bottleneck", but the 'interconnecting dorsal' to refer to the neck is an old turn of phrase in fandom. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>StarCruiser</b> <br /><small>Member # 979</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2024,6,28,15,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 28, 2024</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It's called the "Dorsal Strut" on the classic Enterprise because - it's the upper strut attached to the engineering/secondary hull.<br /><br />Hence "dorsal" - if it were attached (i.e. not detachable) to the primary hull, it would be a ventral strut.<br /><br />I'm not sure where the argument about the mediocre SNW Farragut design came from but.... <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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