What started out as yet another Kzinti/Tzenkethi/etc brainstorm, turned into a star charting project, based on Christian R�hl's charts and Mandel's Star Charts. The original Star Trek Maps uses the old 'Federation Treaty Zone' sphere, which doesn't work well for the post-TOS series, so it's of little use. However, once I find a way to convert those Map coordinates to galactic coordinates, I might check out some of those locations.
A note on fandom: I have no problems using long-standing speculations if nothing else contradicts it. For example, there's no reason not to place Cait in orbit around 15 Lyncis. One big exception is Andor/Epsilon Indi. Epsilon Indi has been mentioned several times on-screen, and never in combination with Andor. I use Mandel's suggestion of Procyon as Andoria's primary.
- Qo'nos and the Romulan homeworlds are closer to Sol than on the other two charts. The Klingons are closer to compensate for the early ENT contacts, and the Romulans are a bit closer to facilitate the Romulan War. The Romulan War theatre of operations is now about 60 ly from Earth.
- The Cardassian DMZ is south of Bajor space, roughly matching the shape seen on the Tactical Maps on DS9. This leaves a bit of an awkard gap north of Bajor though..
- I've added the various minor empires from Star Fleet Battles/Starfleet Command. If you don't like that, color their empires red and call it Klingon space
For the uninformed: The Mirak are a copyright-friendly copy of the Kzinti used in one of the Starfleet Command PC-games. The Lyrans, Hydrans, Mirak/Kzinti, Klingons, Gorn and Tholians have fought wars in every possibly combination, it seems.
To account for the large number of wars that involve Kzinti-like forces, I'd like to propose that Kzintioids are quite eager to call some minor skirmish a War. And of course, if another skirmish happens three years later, it's called a Three Year War.
Very quickly, this is my take on the Kzin timeline:
Early 22nd century: Kzinti send 4 attack waves to Alpha Centauri/Sol. They are quite easily defeated by Earth forces.
Early Federation: Treaty of Sirius. Interstellar Kzinti Patriarchy falls apart. M'Dor will become a bit of a nuisance for the E-D (in some novel). Tzenkethi will succesfully retreat from the Treaty of Sirius, and slowly rebuild a new empire.
The Mirak Star League is the result of another early 22nd century campaign similar to the one to Alpha CEN. The Lyrans and the Caitians are merely ancient (possible) offshoots of the Kzinti.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm.....I think your territories for the Tholians and Breen are probably twice as large as they should be considering the isolationist and unknown natures of those races.
THe Mirak and Hydrans were both "copyright friendly" versions of the Kzin, I thought.... I could be mistaken though.
I cant imagine the Talarians hold that much space with the Cardassians right there: they're a bunch of pussies by TNG standards.
Really, it looks like the bottom right quadrant of races woyld have to be much closer to sol given that there's been conflict iwth them for over 100 years and the Fed would not have explored that far out back in the TMP era.
The Tkon Empire should be up "north" probably- or else Enterprise D would not have been in position for that season 2 encounter with the Romulans over Iconia: it's too far away for the distance covered to work...and the Neutralzone should be far larger to accomidate that giagntic shared border with the Fed.
Even bringing Quo'nos soi much closer to Sol, two weeks for NX-01 to get there at warp 4 is bullshit.
I think you should spread out the core Federation worlds further: with them so close, everything else seems spread thin and it's unrealistic (I know it's fiction, but c'mon!). Betazed should be close to wherever Tellar, Vulcan and Andor end up- those really should be close together.
I think there should be a lot more black betweeen major empires representing unclaimed or neutral space: else story's like The Pegasus would not work and exploration would be just about impossible without violating someone's territory. Whoever could encapsule the other's territory would have the supreme advantage in your chart system- it's too confined.
Not to discourage you: it's a hell of a start. Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
The M'Dor should be the M'Dok.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
M'Dorks?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I think there should be a lot more black betweeen major empires representing unclaimed or neutral space.
Well having been doing maps (or trying) since this board was named something else - I gave up about a year or more ago. It's a futile effort that will only send you crazy.
The whole problem of 'systems' vs 'territory' sent me balmy. yes there is lots of neutral space - but how do you represent EVERYTHING when it's on such a grand scale. Dots? Doesn't make things clear.
What about the Z-axis? I came to the conclusion that the only way for the UFP, CU, KE and RSE all to have common boarders is to have them all wrap around each other above and below, side-by-side. And yes thanks to the Dominion War and various episodes we know that Bajor is far out away from Earth, the Klingons are VERY far away, yet still have a shared boarder to have boarder wars with the Cardassians. The Romulans didn't want to be involved in the Dominion war but Dominion ships used Romulan space to attack Federation targets. Etc.
One thing I would change about your map and one about Mandel's map is that he Puts the Tholian Alliance away from everyone. The Tholians are in the THICK of things. They are interested in Romulan/UFP summits, Klingon Civil Wars would bring them into the fight etc. etc.
Enterprise has NOW put Klingon First Contact at 2151... BUT it seems that Romulans are relatively close to Earth see "Past Tense".
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Well having been doing maps (or trying) since this board was named something else - I gave up about a year or more ago. It's a futile effort that will only send you crazy.
The whole problem of 'systems' vs 'territory' sent me balmy. yes there is lots of neutral space - but how do you represent EVERYTHING when it's on such a grand scale. Dots? Doesn't make things clear.
That's exactly why I decided to just follow on the same track that *all other* Trek charts use, and just fill it all up. There are loads of neutral (and even hostile) systems/alliances within 'Federation space'. Perhaps things are a bit stricter in the Romulan and Klingon Empires, since I doubt the Klingons even have a word for 'neutral', but even there there may be hostile and contested systems.
The alternative is to use no territories at all, and strictly go by a system-by-system basis. Or have a standardized 'sphere of influence' around each star. But this approach does not fit the countless maps we've seen that do clearly show frontlines and borders drawn in random ways through the void of interstellar space.
quote: What about the Z-axis? I came to the conclusion that the only way for the UFP, CU, KE and RSE all to have common boarders is to have them all wrap around each other above and below, side-by-side. And yes thanks to the Dominion War and various episodes we know that Bajor is far out away from Earth, the Klingons are VERY far away, yet still have a shared boarder to have boarder wars with the Cardassians. The Romulans didn't want to be involved in the Dominion war but Dominion ships used Romulan space to attack Federation targets. Etc.
Add to that the fact that entire Romulan and Klingon fleets could get to DS9 without any trouble from the Federation. So there's enough neutral space above, below, or within Federation influence that can be used for massive fleet movements.
As the the Cardassio-Klingon wars, I suspect Klingons don't particarly mind attacking someone who doesn't pose a direct threat to their borders.
quote: One thing I would change about your map and one about Mandel's map is that he Puts the Tholian Alliance away from everyone. The Tholians are in the THICK of things. They are interested in Romulan/UFP summits, Klingon Civil Wars would bring them into the fight etc. etc.
Enterprise has NOW put Klingon First Contact at 2151... BUT it seems that Romulans are relatively close to Earth see "Past Tense". [/QB]
Well, the Romulans have to be close to facilitate the Romulan War.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
hmm, if you say you aren't opposed to use non-canon data, how about going with the Last Unicorn location for Andor? Even though they claim Andor is 300 light years remote, the map supported by the author placed it on Zeta Tucanae (maybe he wasn't allowed to tell?)
Zet Tuc is a hell of the best place ever mentioned. It is still close to Vulcan and with being a Sol-Like-Star most likely a system with class-M planets.
The whole placement in the Procyon system is silly if you ask me: only made to fulfil the given line that Vulcan and Andor are neighbouring systems. But if so, why do Vulcans need an outpost to install a spy station???
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
quote:THe Mirak and Hydrans were both "copyright friendly" versions of the Kzin, I thought.... I could be mistaken though.[/QB]
Actually the Hydrans have nothing to do with the Kzinti, they're an original race made up by SFB that were a former subject race of the Klingons and Lyrans, they breathe methane, have three arms, three legs, three eyes and three sexes. Their ships - like most original SFB designs were so poor it would make you weep, seriously their dreadnought is a slabe in space with warp and impulse engine exhausts at the back.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
All the SFB ships suck bigtime. I really think it's why the game was never too successful.
FASA had some cool ships (though their Gorn lack grace-they reflect the species).
I agree the tholian sshould be more "in the the middle": they're not so concerned with gaining terrritory as fanatically defending what they have.....and mabye occasionally raiding the hapless merchant vessel for kicks.
I'd stick the Talarians in the lower center of Fed space ("below" it but far enough away from the Klingon and Cardies to have remained independant.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Reguarding Klingon/Cardassian conflict, its possible they have territory out there as well.
Any idea where Coridan is?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The nebula nd the planets in they ought over was in unclaimed space and away from their supply lines.
They described the "Brekta Nebula Incident" very nicely in The Lost Era book- Art of The Impossible. It's really worth picking that one up. Basically, the Cardassians (desperate for material rescources) set up initial colonization on aplanet that has the remains of the first (long lost) Klingon offworld expidetion (post Hurq enslavment).
Politics and power struggles ensue as the Klingon high council looks to remove it's chancellor nad the Central Command looks to test it's mettle as a major power.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Mapping the Alpha Quadrant is a virtually impossible task. Any correct cartography (which Christian Ruhl's most certainly is not) must account for the following canon:
1. Klingon homeworld well within 100 light-years of Earth. 2. Romulan space 130 light-years from Earth as of ENT, with some part of the Neutral Zone being far enough away to make subspace contact sloooow (or a technobabble rationale for that). 3. The Cardassian border must have some part which is thousands of light years from Earth. 3a. From some perspective, the Cardassian Union must resemble the long object on the maps from DS9. 4. The Breen must be near the Cardassian DMZ, but also must be near the Klingons. 5. The Romulans and Cardassians must share a border. 6. The Klingons and Romulans share a border, of course. 7. Past Deneb should be a great unexplored mass of the galaxy.
. . . and so on. Also, the map should preferably reflect something about the actual galactic neighborhood that we know about . . . the spirals, where we are in them, and so on.
It is a daunting task, to say the least. I have yet to mentally hit upon the curly-Q formation that would be required . . . but I can tell you that it would just about have to be three-dimensional to allow the various borders.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kobi: The whole placement in the Procyon system is silly if you ask me: only made to fulfil the given line that Vulcan and Andor are neighbouring systems. But if so, why do Vulcans need an outpost to install a spy station???
And we already have the same issue with Procyon as with Epsilon Indii. That is, it's been mentioned as a system without any accompanying reference to Andor or the Andorians. (In this case it was the Battle of Procyon V in "Azati Prime" [ENT].)
-MMoM Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
I see every part of space is labeled except that big blue blog with Sol in the middle... Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Indeed, Andor(ia) ought to have been "fixed" somehow for the purposes of ENT, at least to the degree that the tech consultants or other proofreaders would have known what NOT to call it... It isn't too late even now, but...
This is one of the things that may have outdated Star Charts, but not a major problem. Far bigger is the trouble with the RNZ shape shown in "Nemesis"... And then comes the Earth-Qo'nos distance problem, but it's just a facet of the "how fast is warp" question, and far from the biggest problem with THAT.
As for all those "X borders on Y" things, they can be handwaved easily enough, since there's no evidence that any border other than the UFP/RSE one would be closely guarded and fortified. All other "X has access to Y" instances can be made to work as "X has access to Y through Z".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I like to think the Andor/Andoria issue is like Vulcan/Vulcanis. Only without one of them falling into total disuse.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Fandom has always used Andor, but the studio always used Andoria, possibly in a childish move to invalidate fandom. IIRC, 'Andor' was only used once onscreen, probably a slip of the pen by some writer. So uhm, yeah. I agree with you.
I forgot about the Procyon V battle.. I know MinutiaeMan and Masao use yet another location of Andor. Did you use a real star?
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fandom has always used Andor, but the studio always used Andoria, possibly in a childish move to invalidate fandom. IIRC, 'Andor' was only used once onscreen, probably a slip of the pen by some writer. So uhm, yeah. I agree with you.
Acutally when referred to the planet Andor is used, but Andoria is used in connection with locations (Embassy, Academy of Arts IIRC)
quote:I forgot about the Procyon V battle.. I know MinutiaeMan and Masao use yet another location of Andor. Did you use a real star?
In a case of extreme coincedence Dan Carlson placed Andor in the Zeta Tucanae system to have it closer to the Romulan boarder. However he placed Vulcan on Epsilon Eridani, as the Space Flight Chronology did Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fandom has always used Andor, but the studio always used Andoria, possibly in a childish move to invalidate fandom. IIRC, 'Andor' was only used once onscreen, probably a slip of the pen by some writer. So uhm, yeah. I agree with you.
It's used on DS9 a couple of times when describing potential Dominion targets- when Betazed fell in particular.
Trek biggest flub is constantly naming a race's star whatever the planet's called. Silly.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: All the SFB ships suck bigtime. I really think it's why the game was never too successful.
The game that's been in print continuously for nearly 30 years?
So which other Trek game has been successful if SFB hasn't?
But, many of the ship designs surely do suck.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fandom has always used Andor, but the studio always used Andoria, possibly in a childish move to invalidate fandom. IIRC, 'Andor' was only used once onscreen, probably a slip of the pen by some writer. So uhm, yeah. I agree with you.
It's used on DS9 a couple of time when describing potential Dominion targets- when Betazed fell in particular.
Trek biggest flub is constantly naming a race's star whatever the planet's called. Silly.
I know I've said this before but it is possible for a planet/nation to have more than one name. Look in an atlas someday, you'd be surprised at some of the navive names. Likewise it's possible for the Federation to have "English friendly" or alternate translation names for planets. Case in point: Earth (aka Terra, aka Sol III, Humania...ok I made that one up)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Of course- I'm referring to the Bajorans (as example) calling their star "Bajor" like their planet, or worse still, a native race referring to their planet as some numeric designation (Kitan three or some nonsense).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
That's just your friendly UT at work.
Probably most races are rather embarrassed to be forced to use the real, native name for their planet in interstellar public, and have it literally translated. After all, in 95% of the cases, the name will mean "dirt".
In fact, the UT is likely to have a special "proper name translation avoidance function" to steer around these embarrassing situations (the doctor must really hate being known as "feline predator's cardiac organ proverbial feuding family or gaelic for of the smug", for example).
Which in itself must cause some confusion at times: for example, the Troglytes of "Cloud Minders" weren't just an alien proper name like Kirk first thought, but a translated descriptive term...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Identity Crisis:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: All the SFB ships suck bigtime. I really think it's why the game was never too successful.
The game that's been in print continuously for nearly 30 years?
So which other Trek game has been successful if SFB hasn't?
But, many of the ship designs surely do suck.
It just wont die and they somehow set things up where they dont pay the $10K liscencing fee like FASA did.
Let me makea starship combat game without paying Paramount anything and I'll be sitting on a mountain of cash, the game will have amazing-professional- illustrations with bueatiful ship designs and the minis wont suck. Millions will play it.
That will be the measure of success. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...the doctor must really hate being known as 'feline predator's cardiac organ proverbial feuding family or gaelic for of the smug', for example..."
Actually, the original "Leonhard" meant "brave lion", not "lion-heart". You're thinking of King Richard ("cœur de lion").
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
It needs a little flare (lol pun). Seriously though, it needs detail.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fandom has always used Andor, but the studio always used Andoria, possibly in a childish move to invalidate fandom. IIRC, 'Andor' was only used once onscreen, probably a slip of the pen by some writer. So uhm, yeah. I agree with you.
It's used on DS9 a couple of times when describing potential Dominion targets- when Betazed fell in particular.
No, it wasn't "a couple of times." It was that one time as he said.
Nevertheless, I like "Andor" better, but it really doesn't make any difference. For some strange reason I always liked "Vulcanis" and "Kling" as well. I just really hope ENT never makes the Tellarite homeworld "Tellaria." (shudder)
-MMoM Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Kling" was just horrible. They may as well have said "Klingonia".
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I like the tweaking you have done on your chart, although I would have definitely left out the non-canon references.
But one question (and no offense): Why is it that no fan chart I know includes the Sheliak Empire? It should be very easy to locate because Sheliak is a real star at the "western" border of the Federation. Even the disputed system Tau "Cygna" (there's no reason to believe it's not Tau Cygni mispronounced, because Cygna is just wrong Latin) is in the same direction. The best documented location of an alien empire is simply missing!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, it was *supposed* to go to the Star Charts, after I'd worked out the problem of it lying behind the Cardassian/Ferengi/Tzenkethi "barrier" as viewed from Earth. It's just that Mandel had no time for beta-testing or last minute corrections...
I guess the main problem with the Sheliak is deciding whether they are a nearby or faraway race. Pretty much the same as with the Tholians; is their reputed power moderated by distance, since we see so little of them in the end? A chart extending all the way to the "famous" Cygnus stars would be a bit impractical from the "small Federation, roughly Okudaic speeds" doctrinal viewpoint.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Well, right. Sheliak is 880ly away, so this would be way too far to be able to reach it as of 2154. I'm currently not sure about Tau Cygna because Christian refused to believe that it's the same as Tau Cygni. http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/RealStars.htm Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
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