What started out as yet another Kzinti/Tzenkethi/etc brainstorm, turned into a star charting project, based on Christian R�hl's charts and Mandel's Star Charts. The original Star Trek Maps uses the old 'Federation Treaty Zone' sphere, which doesn't work well for the post-TOS series, so it's of little use. However, once I find a way to convert those Map coordinates to galactic coordinates, I might check out some of those locations.
A note on fandom: I have no problems using long-standing speculations if nothing else contradicts it. For example, there's no reason not to place Cait in orbit around 15 Lyncis. One big exception is Andor/Epsilon Indi. Epsilon Indi has been mentioned several times on-screen, and never in combination with Andor. I use Mandel's suggestion of Procyon as Andoria's primary.
- Qo'nos and the Romulan homeworlds are closer to Sol than on the other two charts. The Klingons are closer to compensate for the early ENT contacts, and the Romulans are a bit closer to facilitate the Romulan War. The Romulan War theatre of operations is now about 60 ly from Earth.
- The Cardassian DMZ is south of Bajor space, roughly matching the shape seen on the Tactical Maps on DS9. This leaves a bit of an awkard gap north of Bajor though..
- I've added the various minor empires from Star Fleet Battles/Starfleet Command. If you don't like that, color their empires red and call it Klingon space
For the uninformed: The Mirak are a copyright-friendly copy of the Kzinti used in one of the Starfleet Command PC-games. The Lyrans, Hydrans, Mirak/Kzinti, Klingons, Gorn and Tholians have fought wars in every possibly combination, it seems.
To account for the large number of wars that involve Kzinti-like forces, I'd like to propose that Kzintioids are quite eager to call some minor skirmish a War. And of course, if another skirmish happens three years later, it's called a Three Year War.
Very quickly, this is my take on the Kzin timeline:
Early 22nd century: Kzinti send 4 attack waves to Alpha Centauri/Sol. They are quite easily defeated by Earth forces.
Early Federation: Treaty of Sirius. Interstellar Kzinti Patriarchy falls apart. M'Dor will become a bit of a nuisance for the E-D (in some novel). Tzenkethi will succesfully retreat from the Treaty of Sirius, and slowly rebuild a new empire.
The Mirak Star League is the result of another early 22nd century campaign similar to the one to Alpha CEN. The Lyrans and the Caitians are merely ancient (possible) offshoots of the Kzinti.
posted
Hmmm.....I think your territories for the Tholians and Breen are probably twice as large as they should be considering the isolationist and unknown natures of those races.
THe Mirak and Hydrans were both "copyright friendly" versions of the Kzin, I thought.... I could be mistaken though.
I cant imagine the Talarians hold that much space with the Cardassians right there: they're a bunch of pussies by TNG standards.
Really, it looks like the bottom right quadrant of races woyld have to be much closer to sol given that there's been conflict iwth them for over 100 years and the Fed would not have explored that far out back in the TMP era.
The Tkon Empire should be up "north" probably- or else Enterprise D would not have been in position for that season 2 encounter with the Romulans over Iconia: it's too far away for the distance covered to work...and the Neutralzone should be far larger to accomidate that giagntic shared border with the Fed.
Even bringing Quo'nos soi much closer to Sol, two weeks for NX-01 to get there at warp 4 is bullshit.
I think you should spread out the core Federation worlds further: with them so close, everything else seems spread thin and it's unrealistic (I know it's fiction, but c'mon!). Betazed should be close to wherever Tellar, Vulcan and Andor end up- those really should be close together.
I think there should be a lot more black betweeen major empires representing unclaimed or neutral space: else story's like The Pegasus would not work and exploration would be just about impossible without violating someone's territory. Whoever could encapsule the other's territory would have the supreme advantage in your chart system- it's too confined.
Not to discourage you: it's a hell of a start.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I think there should be a lot more black betweeen major empires representing unclaimed or neutral space.
Well having been doing maps (or trying) since this board was named something else - I gave up about a year or more ago. It's a futile effort that will only send you crazy.
The whole problem of 'systems' vs 'territory' sent me balmy. yes there is lots of neutral space - but how do you represent EVERYTHING when it's on such a grand scale. Dots? Doesn't make things clear.
What about the Z-axis? I came to the conclusion that the only way for the UFP, CU, KE and RSE all to have common boarders is to have them all wrap around each other above and below, side-by-side. And yes thanks to the Dominion War and various episodes we know that Bajor is far out away from Earth, the Klingons are VERY far away, yet still have a shared boarder to have boarder wars with the Cardassians. The Romulans didn't want to be involved in the Dominion war but Dominion ships used Romulan space to attack Federation targets. Etc.
One thing I would change about your map and one about Mandel's map is that he Puts the Tholian Alliance away from everyone. The Tholians are in the THICK of things. They are interested in Romulan/UFP summits, Klingon Civil Wars would bring them into the fight etc. etc.
Enterprise has NOW put Klingon First Contact at 2151... BUT it seems that Romulans are relatively close to Earth see "Past Tense".
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Well having been doing maps (or trying) since this board was named something else - I gave up about a year or more ago. It's a futile effort that will only send you crazy.
The whole problem of 'systems' vs 'territory' sent me balmy. yes there is lots of neutral space - but how do you represent EVERYTHING when it's on such a grand scale. Dots? Doesn't make things clear.
That's exactly why I decided to just follow on the same track that *all other* Trek charts use, and just fill it all up. There are loads of neutral (and even hostile) systems/alliances within 'Federation space'. Perhaps things are a bit stricter in the Romulan and Klingon Empires, since I doubt the Klingons even have a word for 'neutral', but even there there may be hostile and contested systems.
The alternative is to use no territories at all, and strictly go by a system-by-system basis. Or have a standardized 'sphere of influence' around each star. But this approach does not fit the countless maps we've seen that do clearly show frontlines and borders drawn in random ways through the void of interstellar space.
quote: What about the Z-axis? I came to the conclusion that the only way for the UFP, CU, KE and RSE all to have common boarders is to have them all wrap around each other above and below, side-by-side. And yes thanks to the Dominion War and various episodes we know that Bajor is far out away from Earth, the Klingons are VERY far away, yet still have a shared boarder to have boarder wars with the Cardassians. The Romulans didn't want to be involved in the Dominion war but Dominion ships used Romulan space to attack Federation targets. Etc.
Add to that the fact that entire Romulan and Klingon fleets could get to DS9 without any trouble from the Federation. So there's enough neutral space above, below, or within Federation influence that can be used for massive fleet movements.
As the the Cardassio-Klingon wars, I suspect Klingons don't particarly mind attacking someone who doesn't pose a direct threat to their borders.
quote: One thing I would change about your map and one about Mandel's map is that he Puts the Tholian Alliance away from everyone. The Tholians are in the THICK of things. They are interested in Romulan/UFP summits, Klingon Civil Wars would bring them into the fight etc. etc.
Enterprise has NOW put Klingon First Contact at 2151... BUT it seems that Romulans are relatively close to Earth see "Past Tense". [/QB]
Well, the Romulans have to be close to facilitate the Romulan War.
posted
hmm, if you say you aren't opposed to use non-canon data, how about going with the Last Unicorn location for Andor? Even though they claim Andor is 300 light years remote, the map supported by the author placed it on Zeta Tucanae (maybe he wasn't allowed to tell?)
Zet Tuc is a hell of the best place ever mentioned. It is still close to Vulcan and with being a Sol-Like-Star most likely a system with class-M planets.
The whole placement in the Procyon system is silly if you ask me: only made to fulfil the given line that Vulcan and Andor are neighbouring systems. But if so, why do Vulcans need an outpost to install a spy station???
quote:THe Mirak and Hydrans were both "copyright friendly" versions of the Kzin, I thought.... I could be mistaken though.[/QB]
Actually the Hydrans have nothing to do with the Kzinti, they're an original race made up by SFB that were a former subject race of the Klingons and Lyrans, they breathe methane, have three arms, three legs, three eyes and three sexes. Their ships - like most original SFB designs were so poor it would make you weep, seriously their dreadnought is a slabe in space with warp and impulse engine exhausts at the back.
-------------------- Garbled, confusing and quite frankly duller than an inflight magazine produced by Air Belgium.
Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
posted
All the SFB ships suck bigtime. I really think it's why the game was never too successful.
FASA had some cool ships (though their Gorn lack grace-they reflect the species).
I agree the tholian sshould be more "in the the middle": they're not so concerned with gaining terrritory as fanatically defending what they have.....and mabye occasionally raiding the hapless merchant vessel for kicks.
I'd stick the Talarians in the lower center of Fed space ("below" it but far enough away from the Klingon and Cardies to have remained independant.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
The nebula nd the planets in they ought over was in unclaimed space and away from their supply lines.
They described the "Brekta Nebula Incident" very nicely in The Lost Era book- Art of The Impossible. It's really worth picking that one up. Basically, the Cardassians (desperate for material rescources) set up initial colonization on aplanet that has the remains of the first (long lost) Klingon offworld expidetion (post Hurq enslavment).
Politics and power struggles ensue as the Klingon high council looks to remove it's chancellor nad the Central Command looks to test it's mettle as a major power.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Mapping the Alpha Quadrant is a virtually impossible task. Any correct cartography (which Christian Ruhl's most certainly is not) must account for the following canon:
1. Klingon homeworld well within 100 light-years of Earth. 2. Romulan space 130 light-years from Earth as of ENT, with some part of the Neutral Zone being far enough away to make subspace contact sloooow (or a technobabble rationale for that). 3. The Cardassian border must have some part which is thousands of light years from Earth. 3a. From some perspective, the Cardassian Union must resemble the long object on the maps from DS9. 4. The Breen must be near the Cardassian DMZ, but also must be near the Klingons. 5. The Romulans and Cardassians must share a border. 6. The Klingons and Romulans share a border, of course. 7. Past Deneb should be a great unexplored mass of the galaxy.
. . . and so on. Also, the map should preferably reflect something about the actual galactic neighborhood that we know about . . . the spirals, where we are in them, and so on.
It is a daunting task, to say the least. I have yet to mentally hit upon the curly-Q formation that would be required . . . but I can tell you that it would just about have to be three-dimensional to allow the various borders.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by Kobi: The whole placement in the Procyon system is silly if you ask me: only made to fulfil the given line that Vulcan and Andor are neighbouring systems. But if so, why do Vulcans need an outpost to install a spy station???
And we already have the same issue with Procyon as with Epsilon Indii. That is, it's been mentioned as a system without any accompanying reference to Andor or the Andorians. (In this case it was the Battle of Procyon V in "Azati Prime" [ENT].)
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Indeed, Andor(ia) ought to have been "fixed" somehow for the purposes of ENT, at least to the degree that the tech consultants or other proofreaders would have known what NOT to call it... It isn't too late even now, but...
This is one of the things that may have outdated Star Charts, but not a major problem. Far bigger is the trouble with the RNZ shape shown in "Nemesis"... And then comes the Earth-Qo'nos distance problem, but it's just a facet of the "how fast is warp" question, and far from the biggest problem with THAT.
As for all those "X borders on Y" things, they can be handwaved easily enough, since there's no evidence that any border other than the UFP/RSE one would be closely guarded and fortified. All other "X has access to Y" instances can be made to work as "X has access to Y through Z".
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
