Star Trek has never had a well defined system for it's enlisted service members. Chief O'Brien proves they still have an enlisted service in Starfleet. The pin he wore on his collar on DS9 had three chevrons and two dots which kind of looks like something for a Master Chief Petty Officer in the Navy.
So anyway, here's my Starfleet enlisted system based off Navy titles and rating badges.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
And just for the hell of while I'm making up rank pins...
I never really liked the circular pips.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
TNG era, yes?
Mark
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
A little post-VGR to be exact.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
To stay consistent with O'Brien's insignia, I'd delete the "rocker" from the CPO ranks. That is, CPO would already have one star to distinguish from PO 1st Class, while Senior CPO would have two (like O'Brien, "Senior Chief Specialist", had) and Master CPO would have three.
In that variant, "MCPO" and "MCPO, Starfleet" could be the same thing, or then MCPO, Starfleet could have a wholly separate special identifier in addition to the full MCPO regalia (say, a rocker )
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
Also in TNG I'm sure Vice-Admirals always had 3 circles within their rectangular pips which would suggest that there's still a Commodore rank with a single gold cirlce within the gold rectangle.
P.S. is it possible for a CWO to advance to an ensign? I ask because at least in the 23rd C. it was - Yoeman Rand became a Lieutenant (IIRC) by the time of STVI.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not sure O'Brien should get all the credit. What about poor (Crewman) Simon Tarses?
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
My only complaint about your great graphics is a gripe about this entire gendre, a problem with ST vs. the Real World. From what little I'm reading, there's an increasing use of warrant officers in the military to denote non-leadership officers who have more technical skill than the mere enlisted specialist ranks. Lots of pilots in the Air Force, for instance, want warrant officer ranks so they don't have to ticket punch with leadership positions to keep progressing in rank. Another example is the just-announced policy in the Navy of having non-ship driver paths to O-6 (Captain). I find it difficult to believe that a world as technologically dominated as Star Trek would not be using warrant officer ranks more, and they would not have been using them in the TOS era. And a lot of characters I think could have been more plausibly classified as warrant officer types than normal officers if you take the logic to its furthest conclusion: Tasha Yar, Troi, all the physicians, and O'Brien (I know it's cooler to call him "Chief," but he's so much more than a high ranking enlisted man to me...).
I think you're hemmed in by canon material from making the full range of W-1 through W-5 available, which is really what there needs to be to distinguish the less from the more specialized and experienced technicians. One possibility is that there actually are warrant officer ranks, but they're distinguished by position title, not rank. For instance, when Q allowed Picard the opportunity to live the safer life and Picard went with the anthropological path, he was a LCDR. Yet, I think someone like Geordi would have clearly outranked him as the head of engineering. Another was the crewmember Picard fell in love with, who was at least a LCDR, if not full CDR.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Picard was actually a LTJG. Nice job Hobbes though to get advanced to Chief in Starfleet would you have to go through the initiation?
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
My mistake on Picard. Result of watching election returns very late at night.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the "Warrant Officer" branch of rankings is more for starfleet with families or who dont want to be re-assigned every couple of years to potentially dangerous locations (or dont want to be responsible for leading others) but also dont want to remain an ensign forever and ever.
I doubt O'Brien was always on the "CPO track" and probably branched off after getting married/ becoming a dad. When higher ranking officers make a simmular decision they probably go into teaching or field training (like the guy that set up those starfleet entrance exams for Wesley those other kids).
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I wasn't trying to make something exactly like Star Trek. Just something that's a mix of modern Navy and Starfleet-based ranks to create my take on it.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
Ever since you left the Navy your Trek designs have been heavily influenced. This isnt a bad thing. I really dig the style.
Also, why arnt you ever in #CommCen?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marauth: P.S. is it possible for a CWO to advance to an ensign? I ask because at least in the 23rd C. it was - Yoeman Rand became a Lieutenant (IIRC) by the time of STVI.
Well, presumeably it would be possible for an enlisted man to be offered a commission. It is in most armed forces today, although I think they're usually offered before they get to CWO or equivilent.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Sands:
And a lot of characters I think could have been more plausibly classified as warrant officer types than normal officers if you take the logic to its furthest conclusion: Tasha Yar, Troi, all the physicians
While the warrant officer route sounds eminently reasonable for most of the security positions, I can't see the Chief of Security (or, indeed, any shipboard division) being anything less than a full commissioned officer (at least on the larger starships). And since you need a doctorate to practice medicine or psychology, I can't see how it would work for Troi or the medical staff either; if I'd busted my butt to get through medical school (or the like), I certainly wouldn't want to be put in the position of taking orders from some freshly minted ensign with the Starfleet equivalent of a B.S.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Point taken about Tasha Yar, Woodside. I think you're right on further reflection. That would go for the chief medical officer too. That said, perhaps Worf should have been a Warrant Officer that first season.
I agree that most people with doctorates would not be happy about being a warrant offcer, though the logic would stand for the non-leadership physicians. Although educational titles raises a whole different issue of how a society that advanced would entitle different levels of education. In law, it used to be the only thing you got was an LLB. Eventually that was changed to the JD. But now they have more levels, the LLM and the SJD. The people in the military I've talked to have said they'd be insane to boss around someone more learned than they are, even if they are enlisted. With ensigns pushing around warrant officers, I'm sure many would eventually catch on that it's in their interest to cultivate relationships with their specialists, treat them as more competent than they are, and defer to their opinions more often.
Troi I never saw leading anyone until she became a bridge officer, so I think counselers could still be plausibly classified as such.
As for the yeoman promotion problem, I actually asked this same question on this board's predecessor about 5 years ago. A yeoman is typically a chief petty officer who performs clerical duties. I think it's more a title, not a rank. In theory, officers could be yeoman too. There are plenty of O-5s in the Pentagon who are probably working many of the same functions for O-7s and above as part of their ticket-punching.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I'd love to see a boot ensign try pushing around a warrant. For starters, CWOs are commissioned officers. Secondly, no ensign would be that stupid.
In today's Navy there are many ways of becoming an officer. The primary way is to go to a 4 year college, then attend Officer Candidate School (OCS) in Pensacola, FL. Or try to go to the 4 year Naval Academy in Annapolis which I'm told is very selective. However the most common way is to go to college and join the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) in which the military pays for your college and in return they join the Navy afterwards for 4 years as an officer.
For enlisted folks. There use to be several programs, but they've all been rolled into one, Seaman-to-Admiral (STA21). Another selection board in which those chosen will get the ability to go to college and be paid and a get a commission.
If you were to go to college on your own, say you get a shore duty billet and go to school and manage getting a bachelor's degree, you can request an early out from your enlisted and go to OCS. There's even been one Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) that's the top admiral who use to be enlisted. So to go from being a lowly seaman to the admiral in charge of the Navy is possible.
The difference between a warrant and a regular officer, is a CWO is a specialist in his field while an officer is a generalist. Basically an unrestricted line officer is expected to be able to do anything. A CWO doesn't have a college degree, but usually has about 20 years in the Navy and considered an expert in their field. However, a CWO will only work in their prior enlisted field. CWOs can become ensigns, but they do so as a Limited Duty Officer (LDO) which means they're limited to working in their field of expertise. For example, the USS Fitzgerald's chief of engineering, LT Dunn was LDO and prior enlisted but managed to make it all the way to becoming a department head.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Hobbes, are you sure about CWOs' authority? I thought the distinction between the officer types was that the president gave you a warrant to be an officer, whereas Congress gives you a commission. The CWOs were uncommissioned officers (as opposed to Non-Commissioned Officers). Am I wrong?
One other thing: do all CWOs have so much experience before their promotion? I thought that a large number of helicopter pilots in the Army were CWOs. Would they have waited so long to fly?
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Warrant Officers are Commissioned officers. Trust me they have ALOT of authoritiy. My old division officer was a crazy CWO4 and he once told the XO who was a Captain where to stick it. They are the experts in their fields and are very respected and looked up to. To become a warrant you have to put in a package when you are either a CPO or a PO1. Then you get selected and then you are commisioned.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
The Navy doesn't use the non-com officer title.
While the other branches do for E-4 and above, the Navy uses the petty officer title.
"Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. There are no warrant officers in the Air Force."
It should be noted, the rank of WO1 has been discontinued and the CWO ranks begin at CWO2.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Thanks for the answer, Hobbes.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marauth: P.S. is it possible for a CWO to advance to an ensign? I ask because at least in the 23rd C. it was - Yoeman Rand became a Lieutenant (IIRC) by the time of STVI.
To bring a bit info from other countries than the US in here: In Germany it is possible if you are "CPO" to go to the equivalent of "Cadet 3rd yr" (of three) and then to "Ensign"
I wonder if Starfleet does it similar, because Rand said it took three years to become Ensign, and she was a CPO in TMP (and still or Cadet in STIV)
Posted by Sarvek (Member # 910) on :
What of the rank of Fleet Captain?? Christopher Pike held the rank of Fleet Captain before he was severly injured that restricted him to a specially designed wheelchair.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Do we really need to go there?
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: Do we really need to go there?
One beep for yes, two beeps for no.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
beep... beep...
Ah-ha! A double yes!
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I think FLTCAPT would be more of a positional title like Commodore is in the Navy. Meaning, he's not quite an Admiral, but has greater responsibilites than a regular Captain. Or, while a Captain would command a single ship, a FLTCAPT would command a large group of ships.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Hobbes left the Navy? When was this?
The officer ranks look more like ENT era than TNG era.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by japol: beep... beep...
Ah-ha! A double yes!
Anybody with a certain degree of intelligence would know that in order to prevent such things, you choose prime numbers, for example, 2 for 'yes' and 3 for 'no'... but when have Starfleet officers shown such intelligence? Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Titles like Fleet Captain and Commodore are positions given a person that ranks less then an admiral, that commands a fleet, like when a commander is the captain of a ship, but not of captain rank. In other words, Pike had a honorary position with no actual armada to command.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Except that Commodore is a rank rather than a position in some navies (Although Fleet Captain isn't, AFAIK). I think i've sometimes seen Fleet Captain used to refer to the commander of a flagship, but I'm fairly certain this use is incorrect.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Usually the captain that commands the flagship so the Admiral doesn't have to worry about it is the "Flag Captain."
I imagine that the brevet rank of "Fleet Captain" would be given to the commanding Captain of a group of ships in a Navy that has the rank of "Commodore" instead of "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" so there isn't any confusion.
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