Hi all, been a while since I posted here, but since I recently got back into making Trek models I thought you guys might like to rip this boxy creation to bits...
I'll try and explain my thinking on this one. I've been reading a lot about battleship evolution and naval warfare back in the 19th and 20th century, and found it fascinating how things progressed. This ship, the USS Vigilant, is basically a mixture of the current AEGIS ships in the US inventory and also meant to be used as destroyers were in the first half of the 20th century. That is, it can act as a picket ship for a fleet, warning of approaching threats and dealing with them using it's guided weapons (in this case the twin torpedos mounted behind armour on the nose), or it can charge in on large ships and fleets like a destroyer and fire off a salvo of torpedos.
I figure the most powerful weapon in the Starfleet arsenal is the torpedo, so why not make it the primary weapon and let a small ship pack a real dangerous punch? I gave this ship additional sensor pallet either side, which I imagine will let it detect stuff much more readily than normal craft this size, and if we assume the twin launchers can fire a salvo of 5 shots each, then it really packs a wallop. Being an angular design and built around existing launchers and technology it should be easy to mass produce should war break out, and likewise easy to repair. So in the end I hope I got a small, tough ship that's hard to sneak past and deadly in a rush. Whaddya think, is it or is it a fugly waste of Starfleet time?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
USS DeLorean!
I like it, the pragmatic design and the nice box launchers are appealing. But it does seem to have some phaser strips, doesn't it? Dimensions? Warp capabbies?
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I wouldn't imagine it to be all that fast, despite being small and having good sized engines I think the shape is less than ideal for speed at warp, but at impulse I gave it a decent sized set of engines so it can boogie. No point giving it armarment for use against large ships if it cant dash in, manouever and get out again.
It carries 8 phaser arrays should it need them, but obviously for tackling larger prey it uses it's main armourment. The phasers are the equivelant of a destroyers quick-fire guns, purely secondary armourment for fending off attacks when in range and fighting while the main launchers are reloaded for another salvo. I assumed the launchers to be similar to the units mounted in the Galaxy class, which I believe can launch salvos of up to 5 torps at a time.
Dimensions according to my 3D program are 180 metres long, 48 wide and about 34 high. It has space for 9 decks, just, but i made it sort of 8 decks with the centre decks offset slightly from the outer decks, if you know what I men. A small set of steps between each, if you will.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
I like it, I an see a little bit of the influence you had in the US Navys Arleigh Burke class destroyer in the shape.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ah... I don't see where the torp launchers are... maybe because I've been playing with SimCity 4 for the last 18 hours.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I also miss the Torps' position....ah! "Bueaty shot 2" has them. We talking about Photons or Quantums? Mabye some combo of the two (as Quantums seem to be rare even into the Nemesis era).
It's a niiice design as a patrol ship- something "cheap" to build quickly to shore up he Federation's borders post-Dominion War.
To get nix-picky: While I applaud the use of Akira-esque impulse drives at the rear, I'd lengthen the phaser strips by mabye 50%. Defensive or not, it's the phasers that cover most of the ship's firing arcs.
I'd add some more details to the bridge and square off the top of the bridge a bit....mabye even try the Intrepid's bridge (without those side-rooms) up there.
I'd definitely add some curves to the forward hull- not a lot, but along the outer edge of the "saucer" so it's not so starkly geometric in shape.
I'd leave the torp launchers out always: I hate moving parts on starships and the launchers serve to deploy probes and other useful devices the ship might use every day, so why hide em?
There's a lot of dead space between the registry and the launchers- mabye room for a sensor pallate or powered*down aux deflector.
Amazing execution of a solid design- I saved it in my "to be built" (someday) folder!
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Thanks for the intelligent comment Jason, good to get feedback like that.
I cant really go back and add curves to it now, for the hassle it would cause it wouldn't be worth my while and I'd be as well making a completely new ship, something I plan on doing once I get that little discus ship out of the way. I will then solicit all your help in designing that from scratch.
Not sure what you mean about squaring off the top of the bridge, it's pretty square already and I also got a lot of flack for it being too square anyway. Opinion seems to be divided on the subject. Can you give me a sketch or something to illustrate?
I am always wary of quantum torpedos, as you say they seem to be fairly rare for the sort of time period this ship appears to inhabit, and I despise overgunning something just because it's pretty simple to write a mega-weapon rather than really build or use one. I think a 10 torpdeo salvo would be a major kick in the teeth for any ship, never mind using something as esoteric as quantum torpedos. If we assume they're an expensive rarity then perhaps we can say it carries a mixture of photon/quantum at a sort of 9 to 1 ratio, enough for one salvo maybe.
The dead space between the launchers and the registry is bugging me a little too, but i rationalised it by assuming that much of the front upper section of the ship is devoted to the launchers and associated stores and equipment. I didn't want to go cutting into that space on such a small ship without good reason, as a pet peeve of mine is people making or designing surface detail with no though of what must be behind it to make it work. I might try a little aux deflector though, and see how it looks. I'm not convinced though.
This is also one of the reasons I made the launchers behind armour plate rather than always out. I reason that if this small ship is carrying a heavy load of high explosive, the last thing you want is for a lucky (or well aimed) hit taking out the launcher and with it the torpedo store. That would be a bad thing, again reminiscent of what happened to several British ships at the battle of Jutland back in 1915. I figure that Starfleet tech is pretty well sorted and reliable enough, so putting them behind a moving plate is not a major worry for me. Worst case scenario is you blow the plate off with explosive bolts.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The "squared off" bridge comment was meant more for the shape of the bridge itself to be like the Intrepid's (without those silly side-offices!) or possibly recessed like the Nova class has it's bridge.
Instead of an Aux Deflector, you could just add a pair of transporter emitters in that empty space- it's functinal that way without adding a big glowing bullseye over yuor torp launchers. Not too terrible to add in either as they'd be almost flush with the hull.
I agree with your idea on Quantum torps entirely: At 8/2 ratio, the ship might have a total of 50 Q-Torps (when fully loaded). More than enough to do serious damage to most ships as a first strike and would allow your ship to fight a delaying battle untill backup arrives. At 8/2, your ship is tough, but not "Uber".
I dont imagine this class is used for long-term missions: mostly patrol and rapid response along the borders. Mabye it operates in pairs within a given sector?
I have -in my fleet o ships- a couple of torpedo boats that would use long range probes to increase their effective sensor range over several systems. It would justify having so many launchers to other governments at least.
Small, well thought out ships like this make much more sense to me than some gimmicky "Multi-Vector-Fanboy" ship. Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I have long been of the opinion that many fan Trek designs suffer badly from the 'does anything and everything' philosophy bred by watching hero ships fight off all sorts of threats every week and come out unscathed. No ship can do everything well, it is impossible and can spoil otherwise good design thinking.
Originally battleships were the be all and end all, floating fortresses that held the high seas in their grasp. Then along came the torpedo boat and suddenly much smaller craft could swarm and take out battleships for far less cost per unit, and spread the investment over many hulls. They invented the torpedo boat destroyer (later just Destroyer) to accompany the battleships. Larger than the MTBs and almost as fast and manoueverable, but with quick firing guns to take them out.
Then the submarine came along and once again the ships of the fleet were completely open to attack. Once again the Destroyer evolved and gained a new anti-submarine role, the hull once again getting larger as equipment and longer times at sea were required of it. Next came the carrier borne aircraft and the whole ballgame changed again. Anit-aircraft guns had to be fitted everywhere and fleet air cover became essential to stop the fleet being wiped out. Then came radar, guided missiles, homing torpedos, etc, etc.
The lesson is clear. No one craft can be carrier, nimble destroyer, anti-fighter, anti-stealth, stealth, battleship, landing assault ship, scout, frigate, drydock or whatever else there is that would undoubtedly make up a well rounded fleet. Sure, explorers have to be versatile to stand a good chance of surviving whatever they might encounter, but they cannot possibly do everything. We should stick to picking a niche and making our design fit that job well, rather than making a jack of all trades that fails at most.[/preaching]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So you ship's role is kinda a destroyer/Torpedo boat?
Starfleet would doubtlessly use some other (less threatening-sounding to the UT) designation though.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Escort and Interception.
The Defiant used quantum torpedos, as did the Jem'Hadar, I don't think issuing them to this gunboat would be considered overpowering or fanboyish, after all the Defiant got into all sorts of trouble just the same.
And you should have a pair of launchers in the stern as well, Axeman (even Voyager had that), maybe in that thin grey rectangle at the rearmost of the ship, like on the Excelsior upgrade.
Another advantage with using quantums is that the faint, blue glow of the muzzles would differ from the red of the impulse engines, in this case.
Vanity nitpick: If you won't go with quantums as main armament, you should at least use the bright white-yellow photon torpedo design used in the last season of Voyager, the red "rotating starfish" torps feel so first-season-TNG.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The "Excelsior upgrade" has the same aft torp system as the regular version- they look disturbingly like tailpipes.
Mabye this ship has the "pop up" launchers facing aft like the "E"?
The Defiant was the "hero ship" of the series- it makes sense that it would be VERY tough (still got blowed-up good though)- most ships even at the war's height were still using photons.
....I really cant recall any other ships besides Defiant, Lakota and Enterprise E having them at all.
...yeah, the lazy writers on Voyager probably added them into the ship with unlimited torpedos and shuttlecraft, but fuck those bozos anyhow.
P.S.- I dont think the Jemmies used Q-Torps- just something equivalent.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
quote:They look disturbingly like tailpipes.
But these will be rectangular, and it is the ideal spot for a rearfacing hardpoint.
quote:P.S.- I dont think the Jemmies used Q-Torps- just something equivalent.
But Quark dismantled a jemmie q-torp that was lodged in the Defiant's ass. He even had the q-torp salesman with him, I swear to God.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have that one on DVD- it was a Karemma torpedo with a giant quartz doo-dah that they pulled out. That torpedo salesman was a dead ringer for Zephram Cochrane....
As to torpedo hardpoints: as they're supposed to be guided, the actual positioning of the hardpoint is minimal. If someone gets close enough where it would matter, the torpedo's detonation would blow your own ship up as well as theirs.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I agree, these things are guided weapons that we've seen swing all over the sky and even backwards, so I think placement is not the issue a lot of people seem to think it is. I cant believe there'd be space for rearward launchers on this thing either, I did toy with the idea of recessed ones on the rear underside but couldn't bring myself to do it in the end.
As for designations, I wouldn't have thought they'd have given a toss what anyone called them after all the wars they've had to fight recently. I suppose they could call them system patrol or survey craft, they have the sensors and range for it, but you know you're going to get a facefull oftorpedos if you piss them off whatever it's called.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's just that when you're making First Contact and the Universal Translator tells the aliens you've been talking to that your ship is a DESTROYER, all the "peaceful organization dedicated to exploration" crap flies out the window.
Might as well name your ship the USS Killer of Aliens while you're at it. Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yes, because the opening line of every captain in Starfleet has always been "Hi, I am Cap Tin Capped In of the Federation InsertFriendlyClassName InsertFriendlyShipName that is really an InsertEvilMilitaryClassName in disguise but you didn't get that from me and I am selling these fine synth-leather jackets". Al-ways.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Lots of good discussion on this one and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who perfers niche designs to overblown death machines.
First off the designation; I think "torpedo frigate" should suit this class just fine. Secondly, the q-torps; I agree with el hombre del hacha on this one, one salvo's worth is more than enough for a ship this size. If you consider that it only took a salvo of 4(?) q-torps to deduce a borg sphere into a cloud of freeze dried slag then the idea that this thing should carry 50 is just crazy talk. You might as well paint a big sign in Ferengi on the side of the ship which says "mug me!". Aside from the overkill and security issues I get the impression that these things aren't exactly easy to mass produce so allocating any more than a handfull to a bunch of small patrol ships isn't very practical.
One thing that might make this ship a little more deserving of it's designation could be the addition of Micro-torp emplacements. The little buggers may only be about the size of you average ruler, but with a decent launching system could unleash an unholy swarm of the little bastards. Good for close range anti-fighter defence, clearing mine fields, overwelming weakened shields on capital ships and fixed emplacments. You could probably fit a m-torp bank in that troublesome void between the P-launchers and the registry. And/or an aft facing bank may be justified given the weapon's defensive nature and short range application.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Anyhow, the way the Defiant, Enterprise-E (FC/NEM) and Valiant spent their quantums kind of hints that the things aren't made of liquid diamonds. I agree 50 is a bit much but say 10? This is a small design meant to return to base regularily, anyway.
As for hypothetically planning location and installation of aft launchers (I'm gonna say it), you could have just one muzzle between the impulse engines, with the tube extending into the ship and the actual launcher being somewehere (anywhere) deeper, where the girth of the ship's lucious hips is sufficient to deploy the package.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
An aft launcher? Nah, I dont see it on this design. As we've pointed out already it packs a lot of firepower into it's front launchers, and it's already been established that these things have pretty impressive tracking and turning capabilities. Seems like overkill to me.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with the whole mini-torp thing, which episodes did they make an appearance in? I'm guessing it's later DS9 or Voyager, shows which I grew bored of watching long before their end. I like the idea of a ship designed specifically with the capability to launch a swarm of them, but I am struggling to see a use for them that other items couldn't do as well. Anti-fighter maybe, a whole swarm of small guided missiles would undoubtedly be a bitch, but phasers and full blasts from a phototorp can deal with most things. Why launch shitloads of missiles when one nuclear level blast will do the job nicely when clearing a minefield?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Because it looks cool!
I think the micro torps were never refereed to onscreen but devised backstage as a way to explain how a Danube could possibly be spewing photons, left right and centre. As for it's usefulness, well these things may be small (30cm) but they'll still have the explosive yield of a nuclear warhead, so when clearing a minefield (especially if it's the self replicating kind) you're more likely to get them all if you detonate shite loads of smaller explosives over a wide area than if you blow up a massive warhead in the centre of them and risk missing the one's outside of the blast radius. Or worse, scattering the field so you loose all track of the navigational hazards. So basically you can equate it to using shot instead of a bullet, not much good against a big armoured target that's a long way away, but devastating at point blank range or for precision demolition. With phasers you tend to have a limit of one shot at a time per array, so if you're outnumbers you're going to have a hard time fighting them off. With swarms of precision guided micro-torps AND phasers, no fighter pilot in his right mind is going to get within half an AU of you. Which also means that this little ship would be a great support vessel in big fleet action, keeping small craft and indeed torpedoes away from the Nebulas, Galaxies, and Sovies.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Micro torp thing is something Sternbach made in the DS9TM to explain why Runabouts have torpedos and then Eaves sketched micro "pop-up" launchers on the Enterprise E refit (though I dont think they were ever actually shown in Nemesis).
I dont think that a figure of 50 QUantum torpedos is excessive- if that's this ship's entire compliment. In SOA, Nog warns that the Defiant is down to only 50 Q-Torps (this seems a critical shortage, but they were also in the biggest fleet engagment we'd ever seen onscreen), so 50 is not too crazy (if the ship patrols disputed space or a border with a potentially hostile neighboring race).
Possibly, most ships of this class carry only photons and others a mixed compliment of both Q and P torps.
I can easily see this as a rapid response vehicle for firing areas and colony support.
Axeman, can you post or send me line art schematics of this ship? I'd like to make amodel of it and it looks just large enough to be feasable in my preferred scale.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Line art? Hmmm, I'll see what I can do, but it's not really my field. I'll see if colouring it completely one colour and using a toon shader with lining will do the job, or if the glowing edge render thing will work.
On another note, I've some up with a rough design for the equivelant of a missile boat in the Star Wars games. Using Revs scenario I have some up with a small ship, about the size of Datas scout ship from Insurrection, and loaded it out with minitorp launchers. I figure it can be used in fleet engagements as either fighter suppression or to damage/destroy shields on capital ships. It's secondary function would be as a planetary bombardment ship and minelayer, leaving little matter/antimatter torpedos all over to be activated by passing craft. If I get anything modeled tomorrow at work I'll let you know.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Here's about the best I can do with my limited resources and tiny ape brain...
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