Is this going to be just CGI ship renders or you going to have live action stuff of crews too?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Docu style? If so, I wanna do narration! I have just the voice for it.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
Sounds like it could be fun. I love how the teaser uses the Reaver music from the pilot episode of Firefly rather than music from Star Trek.
Posted by Mark (Member # 1819) on :
might be an idea to use BC ships, weve got a great set of wolf 359 ships available and all of them are very canon
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I tend to do the voice work for the stuff Karl and I do (check out the Anime Music Video or "AMV" section on Karl's site - we've done lots of opening videos together), but we'll probably need some walla done for segments or dramatic reasons (like the background fleet chatter from "First Contact", orders being given, people screaming, etc.).
A script will be completed for large parts of this, as we want to account for ALL forty ships and what happened to them. The canon has names for about half of them; we have to fill in the rest of the ships and names. For the unknowns, I want to use mostly canon ship designs, but a kitbash or two may figure in there too if we can justify it.
Mark
Posted by Mark (Member # 1819) on :
sorry i meant to post some pics but hit post accidently:
hope those can help, if you want to contact either of those guys I can give them your details and tell em what ur up to.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Ah, fantastic - but can they be imported into Animation Master?
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Well, if you're looking for names...I might be your man. I'm about to add name #27,626 to my list.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sounds great, though the nacelle are badly disproportionat on the Challenger. Mabye 25% too large compared with the saucer's size.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Cool. I think Timo's Guide mentions a few ships which were present at 359.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, yeah... But what does that have to do with anything?
The "BoBW" things specific to the Guide would be
1) The Melbourne of Excelsior class is registered NCC-52043, and is not in active service but being rebuilt after taking damage in the Cardassian War; she's supposed to be renamed the Corinth when completed. The Melbourne of Nebula class is there, too, is in active service, and carries the registry NCC-62043.
2) Present in the fight but unseen or unmentioned by other sources were the Polaris class Lightning (NCC-9015; the DS9 kitbash with Constitution saucer); the New Orleans class Alexandria and Lancer; the Challenger class Stafford (NCC-57531); and the Rigel class Nehru (NCC-62559). All were of course lost.
3) The four-nacelled Excelsior study model glimpsed at Wolf 359 is the Wambundu class of light cruisers. The triangular McQuarrie study models are early 23rd century carriers; in case those were present, the long one would be the Titan class, and the short one the Valkyr class.
4) The unmanned torpedoes flown from Mars would be "Colt" drones converted from mid-23rd century Mustang class corvettes.
Apart from those, it's all just a rehash of canon or novel continuity or of speculation that can be found at Bernd's Wolf 359 analysis page.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Can you add ships that we have seen pre-BOBW but never again?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Like what?
Mind you, I'd also like to see some POST battle designs, which by their NCC numbers should have all rights to be there, like the gang from First Contact. Not in huge numbers, but they really ought to have some representation.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmm...mabye have an older Akira with square lifeboats and Galaxy style phaser rings/transporter emitters- just to be snarky.
I'd like to see a Probert-Amby and Sternbach's "Pegasus" design in there as well (the one I made my model from). What are you doing for the Rigel design? I gots one of those too: Photoshoppery by Andrew.
Hmmm....the Centaur and Medusa (third nacelle down!) designs would be nice additions to the mix.
But I'd keep it mostly small-ish ships: this as where Starfleet's arrogance really cost them, after all.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm personally not a fan of having lifeboat hatches as an accurate assesor of when you see a ship. After all, the Sabre had squares, and every Galaxy seen after FC maintained squares too.
For Wolf 359, the big "muscle" ships we know of were limited to Bellerophon, Yamaguchi, Princeton, and Melbourne. Everything else seems to have been Excelsior-sized or smaller. I see no reason not to add an Akira or Steamrunner in there to shore up the canon ranks; there would be another Excelsior or two (with an E-B variant), a couple more Mirandas, and some older stuff. Certainly no Galaxies (which would be possible, but would really screw up anyone trying to catalogue the canon appearances), or anything else that big.
This project will also probably show one attempt at doing something besides the normal phasers and torpedoes route. Perhaps someone else wanted to try the deflector thing? A subspace field or the heavy graviton beam mentioned in Part I? Concentrating fire... Somewhere? Who knows - I dont' want to do anything too far out, but I would like to give Starfleet a little more credit than just hitting the cube with the usual twinklies.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It'd be funny if some hapless captain tried the Picard manuver.
The Refit Excelsior is a nice idea...mabye some Klingons arriving too late to really help? Possibly salvaging the Endeavour. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I choose to believe the Endeavour was not there, and Captain Amisov simply had another encounter somewhere that he lived to tell about. It's a big galaxy, folks.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm mabye you can show the Cube assimilating a few ships and some sort of smaller craft detaching from the cube, then heading towards Borg Space.
You could show the wreck of the Galaxy class Trinculo...
You could also show an Oberth fire some sort of weapon during the fight (we saw one during the FC battle after all, so why not?).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah I remeber there being talk of Klingon Ships in the battle from "Best of Both Worlds" but I have not seen the episode in a while and I'm not 100% sure. Also I seem to recall an infamous piece of wreckage which has been debated over as being a four-nacelled Nebula class.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Wow. In Animation Master, no less. That's brave. The last time I used that program (which was a while ago) it was almost entirely focused on character animation with an alien interface mostly designed around organic modelling.
Cool project, though. Love the trailer. Let us know if we can help.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Yeah I remeber there being talk of Klingon Ships in the battle from "Best of Both Worlds" but I have not seen the episode in a while and I'm not 100% sure.
I haven't seen it in a while either, but I think there was a line like "the Klingons are sending some ships too". I don't think there was any confirmation that they made it in time.
As well as the starships we know about, how about fitting the shuttle Kotoi in there somewhere? We know it came from the Liberator, but was it used in an attempt to flee the exploding mothership, or was it part of an attack plan?
I remember there was a DS9 comic with a holodeck scene where some of the ships tried to beam people aboard the Borg ship in order to take it over, but the Borg raised their shields and all the crew rematerialised in space and died. In another attempt the ships used some kind of combined deflector beam which also didn't work.
Posted by Mark (Member # 1819) on :
i can probably get you those ships in .max format if thats any good to you.
About the New Orleans nacelle size, LC modeled those using the ex astris blueprints so they wont be too big, its probably just the angle of that pic
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote: I remember there was a DS9 comic with a holodeck scene where some of the ships tried to beam people aboard the Borg ship in order to take it over, but the Borg raised their shields and all the crew rematerialised in space and died. In another attempt the ships used some kind of combined deflector beam which also didn't work.
Take over a Borg Cube?! Not only was the fleet desperate, it must have also been delusional. But then again, I can't blame them.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I remember that comic. It was Sisko in the holosuite, early in DS9, who was basically trying to prove to himself that there really was NOTHING that he could have personally done to help at Wolf 359.
Yes, I understand that using AM is ambitious and that other programs would likely be easier, but it's working not-bad so far (Karl is more a character modeller, hence the choice of program). Is it at all possible to easily port 3DS stuff to AM? Karl tells me that it's very difficult. Every bit helps, of course. If we can port .ax ships in, then it would certainly kill a lot of modelling time to get new models in AM made up!
Mark
[ April 19, 2006, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark: i can probably get you those ships in .max format if thats any good to you.
About the New Orleans nacelle size, LC modeled those using the ex astris blueprints so they wont be too big, its probably just the angle of that pic
The NO nacelles are fine. It's the Challenger's nacelles that are too big. Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
So if you try to beam through shields, or rather someone raises shields mid-beam, the matter stream bounces off and rematerialisation hapens just outside the shield? Rrright. . .
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Well, it was a comic. And I might not be remembering it correctly. Maybe the Cube "dodged" out of the way as the transport was in progress(yes, I know that's daft as well), or perhaps the Borg diverted the beam into space.
Just thought it was worthwhile looking at tactics other people had thought up.
There was a big gash on one side of the Cube in Emissary, wasn't there? Maybe the result of a ramming attempt?
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
To my knowledge, converting things from other 3D programs to A:M is very difficult. A:M uses (generally) a 4 cornered patch-based system which is incredibly efficient for deforming character models (and it is a great little character animation program). But because 3DS and Lightwave (and pretty much everything else) are primarily triangular poly-based models, conversion is difficult. Especially getting hard geometric shapes. I have seen successful conversions, and A:M at least used to have a tool specifically for importing, but the results are very mixed and everything I read suggested I'd get better results rebuilding the models in A:M or using a different program. That's about when I switched to Strata/Lightwave.
I'm not going to suggest that your guy do it in another program, because, he should use what he likes, but he might have an easier time of it, especially when it gets to tearing ships apart and tricky camera stuff.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Okay, here's a fun one. We're spreading the word of our project around, in search of modellers, etc. Here's one message we got back:
"i've been thinking about this project a bit, and i have a real annoying question for you:
how is watching 39 ships getting effortlessly destroyed by a big cube going to be entertaining to anyone but the creators?
i understand the enjoyment, skill and tallent that will be involved in creating those ships, but, really...
why?
you'll ultimately need to answer this question to get the kind of support you'll need."
I've got my answer - part "it hasn't been done", part "it's ITCHING to be done", and part "like Pearl Harbor, as a tragic battle it has many dramatic possibilities beyond a crappy Michael Bay movie". As a point of conversation, what would YOU say? Given the tools and the time, why would you want to create such a film?
Mark
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Okay, here's a fun one. We're spreading the word of our project around, in search of modellers, etc. Here's one message we got back:
"i've been thinking about this project a bit, and i have a real annoying question for you:
how is watching 39 ships getting effortlessly destroyed by a big cube going to be entertaining to anyone but the creators?
i understand the enjoyment, skill and tallent that will be involved in creating those ships, but, really...
why?
you'll ultimately need to answer this question to get the kind of support you'll need."
I've got my answer - part "it hasn't been done", part "it's ITCHING to be done", and part "like Pearl Harbor, as a tragic battle it has many dramatic possibilities beyond a crappy Michael Bay movie". As a point of conversation, what would YOU say? Given the tools and the time, why would you want to create such a film?
Mark
is it possible to get live action acting help too? between Exeter, TOS:NV and HF, someone could help to flash out the story...
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Chicks.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OMG That teaser trailer was AWESOME! Really it was very good.
What was the music from? Very effective.
*Shivers*! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think there is maybe a slight point, though, in that the whole narrative, you know, thrust of the event, as it were, is dependant on it being totally one-sided and brutally quick.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
We know it was over quickly, but do we know how long the battle took? On a related note, do we know approximately how long the end product of the project will be?
And to answer Mark's POC: I think lopsided battles are fascinating to watch. (Like when Don Johnson pulls on the calfskin gloves and proceeds to beat the living snot out of William Sadler in The Hot Spot.)
No, but like it would be great to see Admiral Hanson's great plan with the primary defense and flanking force and then all that thinking just completely going to shit with cutting beams. And the lines being broken, ne julienned, and some crews foolishly/bravely preservering and then panicked, hopeless retreat...blah, blah, blah. Just the mechanics of that would be cool to see, but I do suspect to really sell it you'd need some sort of live-action, human element going on to make us care about everyone getting all blowed up. Oh, but there's definitely a cool story in there.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think there's any canonical length, no, but in my head it is way short.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It would be amazing if the Cube never completely stopped moving toward Earth during the entire fight (this is not completely contradicted by Emissary- it would have been at impulse) and just swatted the starships as they arrived- leaving no real chance for a coordinated attack like in First Contact.
Also, attacks from "above" and "Below" the cube would be cool.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Live action elements wouldn't just be necessary to make us care about what was happening, I think they'd be necessary to tell us what was happening.
If you watched the battle from The Emissary without the live action parts I suspect you'd have a lot of snazzy effects, but all the ships wizzing around wouldn't really mean much. You wouldn't have any clue what their plan was, or what that funny blue beam coming from a deflector was meant to achieve, or why some ships are grouping together in a particular formation, etc.
In the case that you do decide to use live action, it might be worth contacting seanr about his CGI bridge modules.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
You guys are correct, it simply wouldn't do to have just straight CG for this project without some sort of human narrative to it. However, personally I'm wary of incorporating true fanfilm live action - all credit where it's due for trying, but I've not yet seen a fan live action piece that is sufficiently convincing in the TNG era. One reason fan films have stuck to the TOS era is that it's so much easier to create convincing sets, props and effects... I'd see the same here.
While I (as director) have not ruled any live-action component out as yet, my idea revolves around instead creating a narrative mostly through background fleet chatter. Remember the haunting scene in "First Contact" which had the initial battle played out IN WORDS ONLY, and the effect seen on the faces of the bridge crew? That's what I have in mind, and we'll need the help of fans like yourselves to create that chatter. From readiness reports to damage reports, from the sounds of confident men and women charging into battle to the sounds of people dying and being assimilated, that's the way I want to principally create this story, to work around the CG shots of starships doing their thing. This allows us to incorporate existing audio clips of the Saratoga and Admiral Hanson, which will give the product some air of legitimacy.
Additionally, a prologue to the film could be some 3D LCARS graphics laying out Hanson's original battle plan (perhaps the original presentation transmitted to each ship in the fleet before the fight?), letting viewers know what to expect - and how it goes to hell in very short order. Most fandom discussion accepts that the battle begins with the Saratoga's group as the first of several "waves" of ships. There's plenty of room in this fight for other squadrons of ships to attack from different angles and with different plans.
As for how long the battle lasts (and as such, how long the product will be), do a search for "Wolf 359" on Flare for some answers. The beauty of this forum is that there has been a LOOOOOT of Wolf 359 disucssion here over the years, which will form much of the body of knowledge from which the script will be written.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You could always have the live action stuff re-enacted by The Bunnies.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
What if the whole thing is framed as a historical record or an actual set of recordings and telemetry from the battle. It might make the scenes more interesting if they're don in a Galactica/Firefly style on 'in universe' camera shots & POVs. That could give you an excuse to slip in some LCARS animations and an excuse not to show the crews. You could even throw in some gun camera overlays to give it that authentic news footage feel.
P.S. From a dramatic point of view, it's better if the Endeavor was present and did survive. Remember Hanson had already called the retreat before his transmission was cut off and by the time the Enterprise was on the scene all the lifeboat had already gone (otherwise you'd think they'd make some effort to look for survivors.) But that's just my opinion.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
We've made allowances for that - but it wasn't the Endeavor. I'm perfectly happy assuming that Amisov and crew ran into the Borg somewhere else and survived.
-We will account for BOTH Melbournes, and assume the production error was just that. Timo, we might just use your NCC number. The Excelsior Melbourne will have a special mission assigned to it, to explain why it wasn't firing anything despite being first in line to be wrecked.
-Hanson's flagship will likely be the OTHER Melbourne (as it was waiting for a CO), one of the other Excelsiors, or possibly the Princeton (where one of Hanson's adjuncts is based in the script). These were the largest ships known to be there. We won't be putting any Galaxies at Wolf 359, and probably no more ships as large as the Princeton, Bellerophon, Melbourne or Yamaguchi.
-There were Klingons there, in addition to the forty Federation ships. The 39/11K numbers will include them, so we will assume that more than one ship was "adrift but salvageable" at the end of the day. 'Cuz if you think about it, more than one of the wrecks seen were pretty intact.
-We will plop an Akira or a Steamrunner in there too, just to twist the tails of anyone who doesn't think that NCC numbers are sequential in TNG.
-We will account for how the assimilees (and possibly the queen) got off the ship after the battle. It won't be an assimilated ship, but it won't be a sphere, as this cube didn't have a big door to eject one like the "First Contact" cube did.
-The current draft of the script includes nods to Peter David's Borg novel "Vendetta" (the only one of his books I actually liked), as well as to the work that Mojo and I did on "Unseen Frontier", which was going to have a whole chapter on W359.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Vendetta has the very best description of how the Borg are and how they'd assimilate a world. Not much of real value after that though....the whole idiotic rivaly of Captain Korsmo having to out-do Picard was just awful. No one so obviously unstable could reach command rank.
The Queen does not have to be physically at the battle- her presence is part of the shared collective, so mabye she was only in Picard's mind.... Or, she can easily swap consiousness into waiting bodies in various locations as needed via the collective's sunspace link. They do in on Ghost in The Shell, so why not?
Mabye several assimilated ships clump together into one large vessel and leave that way.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Now there's you a modeling challenge...a Borg/Starfleet gestalt.
If I remember right Vendetta introduced the "Big Daddy" version of the planet killer right? If it is , then I remember thinking that would actually be a plausible explanation for the thing to be a Borg Planet Cuisinart.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah- it has the "dozens of miles long" version with spikes that can fire the anti-proton beam in any direction.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: Now there's you a modeling challenge...a Borg/Starfleet gestalt.
Someone on Sci-Fi Meshes actually modelled a Nebula class that'd been assimilated by the Borg. Looked absolutely amazing, but it was made in max or lightwave, so it would've work in the 3d program mentioned in this thread.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In at least one computer game (Armada?) there's a Borg feature where you can assimilate other ships and turn them into part of your fleet. They tend to be weakened compared to pre-Borgification, but still looked really spooky. Anyway, our idea has a second borg ship, just not a sphere. As for the queen, it's true that she need not leave; just not be seen, as she's come back at least once.
The "Vendetta" novel featured the Excelsior-class USS Chekov (not the Chekkov, which was lost at Wolf 359) under command of Morgan Korsmo, who get a throwaway reference in the script. Korsmo was not a particularly unstable guy, but just suffered tremendous penile envy compared to the god-like stature of Picard. This came to a head when he actually ordered his ship to fire on the Enterprise for disobeying orders. Luckily he recovered, and ultimately lost his ship fighting three cubes.
"Vendetta" also saw the use of the antimatter spread as a weapon and not just a fireworks display - personally, I liked the weapon idea. Also, the climactic battle showed the use of several other imaginative weapons with varying effects, which I liked.
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Since when does not having a visible feature corresponding to some neato gadget (like a podbay) mean a ship can't have it anyway?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
IIRC, Vendetta also features two Excelsior class ships forcibly towing a Cube into the PLanetkiller's maw.
Not real likely.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Wasn't it the Enterprise and the Repulse? I recall the Checkov had been reduced to scrap by the time Repulse dropped in to save her and pull the deflector trick on a weakened and unshielded cube...
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Some of the assumptions we're running with:
-We will plop an Akira or a Steamrunner in there too, just to twist the tails of anyone who doesn't think that NCC numbers are sequential in TNG.
If you do - how about Galaxy/Nebula/Ambassador-era-ising them - i.e. with not so many Sovereign Class aspects. Bring them into line with their Registry numbers. They could have been at UP in Relativity being refitted?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Wasn't it the Enterprise and the Repulse? I recall the Checkov had been reduced to scrap by the time Repulse dropped in to save her and pull the deflector trick on a weakened and unshielded cube...
Mark
Even so, the Repulse is an Excelsior and I seriously doubt even two Galaxy's could forcibly tow a Cube. (shrug) It's hardly the worst part of the book.
Hmmmmm...will your Springfield have that hideous secondary hull-on-straps thingie?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I know I've read Vendetta, but I must have blocked it from my memory.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Some of the assumptions we're running with:
-We will plop an Akira or a Steamrunner in there too, just to twist the tails of anyone who doesn't think that NCC numbers are sequential in TNG.
If you do - how about Galaxy/Nebula/Ambassador-era-ising them - i.e. with not so many Sovereign Class aspects. Bring them into line with their Registry numbers. They could have been at UP in Relativity being refitted?
Mark already addressed that earlier when someone mentioned Galaxy-style lifeboat hatches. Personally, I think the details that we associate with the Sovereign may well have been design elements of the Akiras and Sabres that were later used when designing the Sovereign, rather than the reverse.
It'd be nice to see some older ships as well. I mean, we know there was a Constitution class(or ship of similar era), Oberth, Excelsior and Miranda, so why not a Constellation(maybe even the Hathaway?) or Soyuz. Starfleet is supposed to be desperate, so pretty much anything goes. Within reason.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Like maybe the Columbia? Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Some might argue that it wouldn't look out of place amongst the Akiras and Steamrunners. Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Zing! +1
Have you thought about using the Unreal 2004 engine to render the "live action" character elements? It may not be a beautiufl engine, but it's supposedly pretty extensible/easy and has a lip-synching feature built-in.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Constellation yes- Hatahway, no. The Hathaway would need more time to make functional that it would be worth- better another ship of that class (and we know they're stiull in service at the time).
The Connie secondary hull shown onscreen should be a part of some other design- that "Challenger" design from the comics could work, I suppose. No way a Connie should be in that fight. If the US Navy was really desperate it would still not send the USS America (a sailing frigate) into combat (particularly against a far superior foe that outclasses their very best).
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Constitution. Or Constellation. There was no wooden America.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Remember guys, the Stargazer WAS originally supposed to be a Connie. They changed it for "The Battle" and didn't look back, but I see no reason a newbuild Constitution from the later movie era can't survive to the TNG era. Perhaps it's also a trainer, akin to the Republic (which I believe to be THE Republic), except capable of warp. Every last ship, every last man, folks.
Besides, we already put one in the trailer, which is oddly enough banged up just like the E-nil saucer appearance... And with the components we're building for the Saratoga, it's plenty easy to slap together a standard Reliant and enough of a Connie to make it worth the time designing it. The Dominion War variant, too.
Mark
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Constitution. Or Constellation. There was no wooden America.
And....alas there is no U.S.S. America anymore... Davy Jones
AND they intend to decommission the Enterprise sometime in 2013. Hopefully, they'll name the first of the new CV21 class Enterprise. THAT won't muck with Trek AT ALL.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yeah, they sunk her to see just what a supercarrier can take in terms of hits.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
There is a wooden America though- it's a modern re-creation (no idea if there was ever such a ship back in the day), but the point stands: 100 year-old de-commisioned ships would not be called upon to fight an enemy that far outclasses even your most advanced ships.
It accomplishes nothing and gets the crew (sizeable, even if it was an Academy trainer) killed.
The argument that the Miranda and Excelsior classes served leading roles in the Dominion War is muted by the attrition in ships Starfleet suffered during the war's opening months and the loss of (at least one of) their shipyards. They had time to de-mothball (Polaris) and refit (Lakota) older ships to a (somewhat) capable force. The "fleet" assembled at W359 would have been thrwn together in days at most: no time to use anything not ready, and after the Borh handily creamed the Lalo and the Enterprise's weapons did nothing, I cant see any capable admiral sending "whatever they had" into combat. Better by far to be in hock to te Klingons (and Romulans!) for saving your ass.
At least useing the "challenger" configuration, we can assume the ship is used as a freighter or science ship within the safety of the UFP and got drafted because it was within range (the smae reason there was not a larger force).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And yet there was an Oberth there...
Back to the original supposition then - there was a Constitution there, as though it were just old, like the Constellation herself.
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Ooow, where can Shakaar sign up on this project?! *takes over direction* *ponders* First... we shall remove all the instances of "Emmisary" on the webpage and replace them with "Emissary".
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: And yet there was an Oberth there...
Back to the original supposition then - there was a Constitution there, as though it were just old, like the Constellation herself.
Mark
That was my thinking as well. If there can be ships in service as old as the Oberth, Miranda and Excelsior, then I can't see any reason why a more recent class of ship such as the Constellation wouldn't be in use.
As for the Hathaway, that was just a throwaway suggestion(I don't like fan fiction that brings together old characters and ships in contrived situations), but there's no evidence that the ship would take too long to be made operational. It could've been brought back into service for all we know. It's not as though it was unable to fly in Peak Performance. It even managed warp.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: And yet there was an Oberth there...
Back to the original supposition then - there was a Constitution there, as though it were just old, like the Constellation herself.
Mark
It's silly because (unlike the Oberth) the Constitution had been decomissioned. For you now...decades.
Might as well toss in the FJ ships as well.
Hmmm...of course, if you were to use the Connie, it would be soooo miniscule next to the Cube as to be a gnat, One tenth the width and less than one thirtieth the height.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Jason orally spuzzed out: 100 year-old de-commisioned ships would not be called upon to fight an enemy that far outclasses even your most advanced ships.
The USN kept 3 Des Moines-class heavy cruisers in mothballs in Philly for something like 50 years..."just in case."
The funny thing is, we forget that in space--a vacuum--there's none of the usual "wear & tear" that we associate with oceangoing navies. For the USN, a 45-year-old vessel is an antique; the Brazilians, on the other hand, have a riverine craft in their navy dating to a 1937 launch. Still in service.
I've no problem with old-ass ships still being in service; it would help a lot with the expanding frontiers (remember all that "exploration" nonsense?" & unless there was some form of severe structural anomalies, no reason for a ship build in the late 2260s to not be in service., even if it's in a reduced fleet supporrt role. (such as Lantree)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yup. Incidentally, I think the three Des Moines were the last ships left that were designated as "heavy cruisers"...
And we have absolutely no canon mention about the decommissioning of the Constitution class as a whole. Only the Enterprise-A, and even that is generally accepted as being a renamed older ship. If the Feds had kept making new Constitution class ships into the 2270s, there should be no reason a relatively unworn example shouldn't be active in SOME role in 2366. Maybe as a freighter, a patrol ship, who knows? MY question to you guys is whether we should make this Connie a pre-exisitng one whose name we know, or make one up and give her an NCC in the upper XXXX range.
WHAT!?!?! No "Argo", "Glorious", "Idefatigable", "Foch", "Vikrant", or "Giuseppe Garibaldi"....
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I think some of those are Excelsiors. Maybe. I'd have to look. It's on the other computer that this silly twat is using...cute as she is, though.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While wear-and-tear is not a (big) consideration, the march of progress certainly is. Consider, the Federation expanded by leaps and bounds since the heyday of the Connie Refit as new races and their tech joined the melting pot of Starfleet.
On a lesser scale, the Romulans and Klingons also greatly improved their tech.
This severe out distancing between the tech standards of the TOS to TNG era (and the fact that we never saw a Connie on TNG but did see every other old ship design in service) leads me to believe that (like the Soyuz) the old class was completely de-comissioned or is, at most, serving with severe automation in "home fleet" defense for low-risk colonies or as the occasional trainer for private commercial intrests (i've never thought commerce was or could be under Starfleet's control).
Taking the example of the DeMoines class ships "kept just in case", imagine some foreign power makes one uber-battleship that cruise missiles and nuclear warheads cant scratch: does the US Navy crew up it's obsolete Demonies class ships with able bodied victi...er....sailors and send them to fight said uber-ship?
Fuck no.
Thus, I speculate that, if it is a Connie refit, it may have been a civillian ship (even a passanger liner) that responded to the first distress calls or was pressed into service as emergency evac/hospital duty and got destroyed along with the others. But not part of the intended "fleet".
quote: MY question to you guys is whether we should make this Connie a pre-exisitng one whose name we know, or make one up and give her an NCC in the upper XXXX range.
I'd give it an old name and number, but something other than the "NCC" prefix to indicate a change from active fleet status.
Didn't we see an Oberth with a non-NCC registry on TNG?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The original series presents us with one reason for not seeing many Constitutions in the future, namely, most of them were blown up, eaten, fell into alternate universes, had their entire crew reduced to powder, and so on.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:Taking the example of the DeMoines class ships "kept just in case", imagine some foreign power makes one uber-battleship that cruise missiles and nuclear warheads cant scratch: does the US Navy crew up it's obsolete Demonies class ships with able bodied victi...er....sailors and send them to fight said uber-ship?
Yet in the diverse galaxy of Star Trek, the foreign power might send out a mighty fleet of sailing ships armed with bronze cannon. Would the USN, heavily engaged in slugging it out with the Soviets, divert twelve modern missile destroyers (each with a peashooter on the fo'castle) to confront that fleet, or a single elderly gun cruiser with 12 heavy barrels?
Also, some spatial threats do not evolve or escalate. A T Tauri star will stay a T Tauri star, and the vessel type capable of approaching one for study in 2154 will still be useful in that role in 3154, or 200154.
I rather doubt Starfleet would have any real incentive to aim for "lean and mean" when "obese and omnipresent" will do the job so much better.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:I rather doubt Starfleet would have any real incentive to aim for "lean and mean" when "obese and omnipresent" will do the job so much better.
Just not against the Borg (who, overconfidence aside) were a known threat. Shuttlecraft would have had a better chance of surviving than a Connie.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I still disagree. And we're gonna leave it in there, with a high NCC number, and let YOU guys fight it out.
Damn, do I feel like a Trek writer or WHAT?!
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just make it blow up nicely (and in a way diffrent from STIII) and I'll be happy(ish). Hmmm....mabye have the cutter-beam split it stem to stern...
Just (please!) dont have the Connie as a "die-hard" ship while Nebulas and Ambassadors are getting creamed!
Everyone loves the old girl, but there's a tendency in fandom to...ah....overstate it's capabilities.
Do you plan on one large assualt style confrontation of a battle where ships show up and get slaughtered a few at a time?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If I remember correctly the wreakage was missing the saucer (which was free floating elsewhere) so there's an oppertunity here to show a connie saucer-sep sequence.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
what if it were simply a decoy towed there to give the Borg yet another target to shoot at thus dispersing the concentration of fire.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye it's the Federation News Service covering the battle and the phasers have been replaced with long range camera-sensors. That would rock, and you could get Reverend or Aban to do a FNS logo for the ship in place of the delta.
Hmmm...we only really see the forward third of the secondary hull- that could go with a ton of other (fandom) ship classes.
Thinking further, it would be cool if the battle is (at least partly) presented from the reporter's POV. Kinda a "man in the field" documentary feel like you see in some WWII newsreels.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Wasn't there an incident where TOS-E released a balloon that inflated and was used as a decoy? Somehow this is stuck in my head but I can't recall where I saw this.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes. (Assuming TOS-E is somehow standing in for "the animated series.") A little searching suggests it was the episode "The Practical Joker."
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I like the idea that the Connie might have been a passenger liner (if the Oberth is supposed to take an active part in the battle).
BTW, this sounds like an ambitious project. Let me know if I can dig up anything that may still rest on my hard drive.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
What if it was a hospital ship? beaming and shuttling wounded off crippled ships. From a tactical standpoint the borg would leave them alone until it was overloaded by patiens then zap - assimilation buffet with minimal resistance. It could also tie in to where the Liberator's shuttle was doing outside.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I like the hospital ship idea the best.
Or, it could have been a ship of the line, with augmented/upgraded phasers (to 24th century standards) and quantum torpedoes.
Or did the quantums come out after this battle?
Maybe it was desparation and they pulled every ship they could assemble in such a short time, and pulling a Connie out of mothballs or away from Academy training was one such move.
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
"Everyone loves the old girl, but there's a tendency in fandom to...ah....overstate it's capabilities."
Not her capabilities, her Captain. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Certainly both- there are novels that read: "...just then, the Enterprise fired on the six closing Klingon batleships, utterly destroying them..."
Much like how Shatner wanted the Connie to have 72 decks so it would be the biggest, writers too often bias their stories towards their favorite (whatever).
quote:Or, it could have been a ship of the line, with augmented/upgraded phasers (to 24th century standards) and quantum torpedoes.
Or did the quantums come out after this battle?
Baad idea- firstly, it's unlikely a Connie (or even a Miranda) could ever be "brought up to 24th century standards" because it would need way more power than it's core, engines and superstructure would allow, and yes, Quantums came along far after W359.
Probably as a result of it.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
The Oberth's pod could have been fitted with some special Borg-jamming equipment making it the equivalent of an EA-6B Prowler accompanying the fleet. The Connie could have been set up as a fire ship. Packed with a lot of antimatter and remote controlled to ram a cube, possibly even from the Oberth. Of all the ships the Borg would be prioritizing fire on, these two would have been at the bottom of the "List of Patheticly Plausible Dangers"
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
We've already designated a flying-bomb ship based on canon observations... The Connie will be in combat, with likely updated (though still ineffectual) weapons. Hey - the Mirandas could do it.
And here's a quick progress pic and quiz! While finding lots of AM modellers to work up new models has been something of a challenge, we ARE making progress in new models. Here's proof. Questions follow:
1. What ship is this?
2. While there has been no canonical designation for the ship or its class, fandom has given at least one potential class name. What is it?
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm guessing the hideous concept model of Enterprise with the cardboard tube nacelles and forward-set bridge.
That model was among the W359 wreckage after all. I've seen it called the "Apollo class".
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Bah! Never liked that design and I'm sure Mark know's my preference for the Apollo-Class. Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Yep. Definitely one of the McQuarrie concepts.
Posted by Makotokat (Member # 1041) on :
It was interesting though....
Can you imagine what the TNG enterprise would have looked like if THAT had been the movie enterprise?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Yup, that's a Macquarrie design. Jonah (Peregrinus) favours it for the Apollo.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think Karl's done a pretty good job so far. No idea where to place the decals for the name, registry, etc., as the original had none.
Mark
Well if it were me I'd put "starship uss....united federation..." pennant along the neck, close to where it attatches to the secondary hull. Another pennat, this one with only the name & reg on the outside face of each of the nacelles.
The saucer is a little tricky, obviously because of the position of the bridge, but I'd put two sets of name & reg flanking on the port and starboard sides (like the e-nil has the reg on the ventral surface of the saucer) and then have the full name and reg near the front edge of the saucer's ventral side. Possibly a small decal of the name just in front of, or perhaps even on the forward face of the bridge itself.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
There is some precedent for decal placement on the saucer as per the NX/NCC-1000 in the SotL calendar.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Split it. Either side & right in fromt of the bridge.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That would do it if the name of the ship were, say, U.S.S. Gage. How could that be standardised for really long names, though - way longer than NCC-XXXXX, as Apollo-class ships are thought to be?
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The same way. Look.
See the red areas? You can put it allllll in there. Even in front of the bridge. Just center & move accordingly. Works even if the ship is named USS Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, USS Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapikimaungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu, or USS Krungthepmahanakornamornratanakosinmahintarayutthayamahadilokphopnopparatrajathaniburiromudomrajaniwesmahasatharnamornphimarnavatarnsathitsakkattiyavisanukamprasit.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Which is German for "crappy garbage scow of a ship"
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I suppose so... Though proportionately, it would be a much smaller name on the hull than most other ships.
The forward view shows there's plenty of space for the name right where Shik said. The length of the name wouldn't make any difference.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Good God, that's an ugly ship- it makes the Deadalus look advanced by comparison.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
99% done now... Karl took some nice liberties to even the ship out. Just working on the decals and we'll sign off on it. One down, 39 to go...
Why the red deflector? Blue would make the ship look much more plausable -as would swapping the nacelles to Phase II version.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Your guy, Karl, clearly knows his stuff and he's done a nice job bringing this design to life. But there's something I don't understand. Was this McQuarrie concept thingamabob ever seen at Wolf 359? I know on Bernd's site it says a damaged version was seen in the episode "Unification" and speculates the footage in which you see it was originally shot for BOBW and (because it wasn't used) recycled. Am I getting that right? Just seems like a really roundabout way to include a relatively unknown ship that looks even more out of place than the Connie hull. Or the unthinkable has happened and I missed something.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Why the red deflector? Blue would make the ship look much more plausable -as would swapping the nacelles to Phase II version.
Also, it seems odd having a TMP/TNG era font for the registry and name, but that very TOSish red strip along the nacelles.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah- I thought the modeler had slapped on the TOS Enterprise's pennant on backward and upside-down at first glance.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Karl listens - and sees logic! He's been monitoring this thread (for some reason his Flare registration has yet to go through) and really appreciates the constructive comments.
I think that about does it for the Gage... We've got lots more to do.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A couple of minor suggestions- I'd make the wacky yellow window thingies at the front of the bridge bump into a forward-facing Officers Lounge (with simmular windows, natch). The ship needs phaser mounts- desperately! Prahaps a saucer mounted torpedo laincher on the ventral side with an NX-01esque launchbay on the secondary hull's ventral side...it's a pretty large starship not to have a shuttlebay.
Karl, if you're out there, ya did a really great job with an incredibly crappy design that was tossed together as just a "proof of concept" model, not ever intended to be a final design.
I hope you're going to do the four-nacelled Excelsior model next!
assuming you're not really some crazy split persona Mark has developed from Flare exposure, Welcome Aboard.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There is a considerable shuttlebay that occupies most of the aft section above the impulse engines. Presumably the doors garage-roll downwards to allow shuttle launches. The interior of the bay is seen in "The Art of Star Trek".
Admittedly the ventral secondary hull isn't terribly detailed, mostly on account of the model never being seen at that angle. Karl made those small tubes the torpedo launchers - four forward, four aft. The small blisters on the forward dorsal saucer were basically concluded as phaser emitters, and so we added four more on the ventral saucer - there may be more on the ventral secondary to cover the ventral aft arc, but we may not get around to adding them.
Karl thought about the lounge idea, but that's a case of idea versus intent - it's the bridge, so it'll be an odd one.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ah. I did not get that the shuttlebay was directly above the impulse engines. Seems a tad risky.
Nacelles aside, those "bridge windows" bug me- it makes the ship seem like it has a WWII bomber cockpit in place of a bridge and throws off any sense of scale. What's the "band-aid" thing on the side of the neck?
Is Karl going to make the "Arial" shuttlecarrier version of this overall design?
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
That's a beautiful interpretation of an ugly ship. It looks so much more realistic with the Starfleetish details.
I only have a beef with the Bussard collectors. I always liked the idea that the round collector caps were blown off during the battle. Maybe this could be even shown in the movie?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Yup, that's a Macquarrie design. Jonah (Peregrinus) favours it for the Apollo.
No he doesn't. Not since we saw it in Spacedock in Star Trek III. I'm still working on making it look good, but I am looking elsewhere for Apollo-y goodness nowadays.
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
TOLD ya it'd take a while. Here's Karl's next ship:
Say, Mark, I went to look at the Gage again and got a real nice Shaw Corporate 404 error page.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Me too, anyway this project is coming along nicely and I'm happy your going to keep the Connie in the fight. Have you considered the DS9 kitbashes like the centaur and yeager. They should blow up real nicely.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Kitbashes are good because they mean less time building ships and more time building shots.
The original pics have been moved. I'll see where they are now...
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Once the Excelsior is completed, a Medusa cant be far behind, can it? Fits the era and the look of the ships thrown to their deaths...
The four-nacelled Excelsior testbed would rock as well...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
One can only hope. The bottleneck here, as previously discussed, is that we're using Animation Master for the CG modelling, Karl's platform of choice. Since AM has not made many public Trek meshes (before the Gage), making these models will take the longest time. However, with the Gage looking like she does and the Excelsior and later ships to have as good or better detailing, the results should be great to see in the end.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
For those wondering where all the Gage pictures went, they're now here:
Question for you all: given the Excelsior's status as the most common TNG Fed starship, how many do you think would have been there? We know of two officially. I'm thinking five, maybe seven tops. You?
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The Gage was the one that reminded me of the XB-70 for the engineering hull.
Thanks
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Um...there should be 87,000 of them.
Heh. Seven is a nice number.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Oh, uhh, who, me?
Six or seven would work.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Alright, everyone is invited to submit their ONE ship name they'd like to see in this film. We're just looking for names, which will be assigned to ships as we feel appropriate. No guarantees that the name will be used, or that it will be given to a cool ship - we just want names that we wouldn't ordinarily think were neat, but may well be from your perspective. If you're a guy who keeps comprehensive lists of ship names, I'd be careful about using canon names or those of ships that may not have been lost there.
Also, please explain the background of the name chosen. We're not only looking for proper names and places, but also neater names along the Enterprise or Voyager or Defiant line. One of the side projects that have been discussed is a sort of companion book/PDF or website that will describe the names, classes and brief histories of each of the ships involved in the battle, Hanson's original battle plan (which we've worked out, btw) and how stuff ultimately turned out. Some of this work may actually get outsourced while Karl and I continue work on the modeling and scripting...
Flare's getting a collective credit on this project, and dammit, you're gonna EARN it!
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I have a qualifier question before I delve into my ship list (33,333 entries & going strong!): Are you looking for more "multicultural" types of names (e.g., from all aspects of Earth & perhaps aliens as well) or more kind of..."publicly accessible" names (Avenger, Charioteer, Alacrity, that sort of thing)?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Little of both. Perhaps skewed a little to the more publically accessible side, to keep people from wondering what all the wierd names are. Still intend to have 2-3 good alien names in there, though. Not likely to go for overly violent names like Avenger or Conqueror - cool as they are, there's a definite lack of such in the canon. We're not naming British warships, after all.
The main rule here is that everyone gets one, so make it a good one.
And another one, if you are among the first five or so to suggest a good Klingon name for the squadron that joins the battle later on.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
USS Nix. Named, of course, after the satellite of the "dwarf planet" Pluto.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I would like to submit the name Shenzhou. It's the name of the Chinese spacecraft program & I believe it merits honor.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
How about USS Ptichka, after what was to be the second Soviet space shuttle after Buran before they ran out of funding and cancelled the program. Incidentally, the name was only an informal nickname as their was no official name.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
USS Wright for the first flyboys. Since there is a USS Tian An Men I figure that USS Dachau, USS Auschwitz, USS Birkenau, USS Treblinka, USS Belzec, USS Sobib�r, USS Lublin, USS Majdanek, USS Chelmno, and USS Ravensbr�ck would also be fitting.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
USS Kumari to continue the lineage of Shran's old ship (hey, they should reflect the whole of Starfleet- not just earth!).
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
USS Tsien. After Tsien Hsue-shen, a chinese rocket scientist who worked for JPL, kicked out of the country for being a communist in the 50's. I think Arther C Clark named a ship after him in the novel for 2010.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Arthur did. The Tsien in 2010 was the first ship to land on Europa, beating the Leonov by burning all their fuel to achieve a much higher speed, and banking on finding water on Europa to hyrdrolyze into fuel for the trip home. Unfortuantely, after landing the Tsien was dry-humped to death by a giant horny lichen.
And the Excelsior is getting painted now. We're also scripting a second teaser involving this model and the work of a new contributor who will be handling certain VFX. The new teaser will involve some recorded dialogue that will help describe the tone of the overall piece, and how the story will basically be "re-created" from audio clips and black box recordings from the battle, the starships, escape pod distres calls, etc. Ought to be a lot of fun.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: USS Kumari to continue the lineage of Shran's old ship (hey, they should reflect the whole of Starfleet- not just earth!).
Agreed. While I was always conscious over the years to make my shiplist reflect all of Earth & not just the Anglo cultures, in recent months I've been rethreading it with alien influences as well. You'd be surprised how easy it is to come up with "alien-sounding" names. Some of the ones from Earth sound it at times.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Arthur did. The Tsien in 2010 was the first ship to land on Europa, beating the Leonov by burning all their fuel to achieve a much higher speed, and banking on finding water on Europa to hyrdrolyze into fuel for the trip home. Unfortuantely, after landing the Tsien was dry-humped to death by a giant horny lichen.
And then was dismantled by the Europans, revered by Sir Lawrence Tsung, & honored by the Chinese crew of Galaxy when she was crashed there.
Also, 52043? Interesting.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yep. Per the first page or so, we intend to both keep and explain the presence of both Melbournes at the battle. It's always bugged me that the Excelsior Melbourne was just flying at the cube and not bothering to fire. We've scripted a reason, and in fact a whole plot point around it. In involves Klingons.
Timo suggested 52043 also on the first page or so, and while we haven't officially asked permission yet, we'd like to use it.
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
USS Mikoyan - do I really need to explain this one?!?
B.J.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yep. After all, you could be talking about the man, the machine, or the company!
[Though the second someone suggests a USS Microsoft, I'm gonna punch you in the neck.]
Hey, anyone know of a really, REALLY detailed look at the TMP-movie style shipboard phaser turrety things? I can't find one online for the life of me - and I gotta show Karl how they're not just little bumps in yellow rectangles.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
These might help you, Mark, as well as this shot. Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
My picks would be Volition, or if that's too harsh sounding, Resolution.
I've used those names in some of my artwork, just because they have a noble air about them, and I like how they sound.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The USS Auschwitz? Jesus Christ.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Or anyway it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, we DO have a USS Tian An Men, named for the 1989 slaughter. If THAT could make it...
Mark
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Since you need names for some of those extra Excelsiors anyway, you could have one of them be the USS Righteous (NCC-42451) from the Star Trek Borg game. The ship was under attack and destroyed at Wolf 359, although it was resurrected by Q if you completed the game, that's not important. It's a good name and the game wasn't bad either.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Tiananmen Square was around long before 1989.
This reminds me of the ruckus some made when I mention I gave a Galaxy the name Diana, Princess Of Wales.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The USS Auschwitz? Jesus Christ.
And yet only one of those names I wrote was not a death camp.....
The Tian An Men, Redemption Part II, aired 1991, was named in honor of the slaughtered people at the square, so how would Nazi death camps be any different if being named after places where people were slaughtered?
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: This reminds me of the ruckus some made when I mention I gave a Galaxy the name Diana, Princess Of Wales.
I wouldn't bother causing a ruckus over it, but it does make me feel slightly queasy.
Then again, that's probably because in London the only thing to be named after her was a disastrous circle of concrete that had to be closed because people didn't realise wet things were sometimes slippery.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The USS Auschwitz? Jesus Christ.
And yet only one of those names I wrote was not a death camp.....
The Tian An Men, Redemption Part II, aired 1991, was named in honor of the slaughtered people at the square, so how would Nazi death camps be any different if being named after places where people were slaughtered?
The diffrence is that the Square was where a lot of people got slaughtered for standing up to an oppressive regeme. The concentration camps were... atrocities- not something you want to commemorate with a ship name. Best to leave some things alone- Trek tends to ignore all WWII German battleships as well- even though the German navy was not (directly) culpable in the horrors of the Nazi party.
Ship names should be about accomplishment or at least be inspirational- a lone protestor standing up to a tank or example. Besides, maybe Tian An Men square becomes the capital of a democratic China someday...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That's a bit like saying that maybe someday the National Mall will be the capital of the US.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Guys, if you wanna dispute the suitability of some names, take it to some other thread. More names! More names!
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
USS Lindbergh USS E. Fitzgerald USS Procyon Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
U.S.S. Minigamo U.S.S. Whidbey U.S.S. Nookta U.S.S. Lummi U.S.S. Skagit U.S.S. Sumas U.S.S. Squalicum U.S.S. Sehome U.S.S. Whatcom
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
One each, ya mooks.
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
USS O'Neill USS Carter USS Jackson USS Robinson USS Syrinx Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The new teaser will involve some recorded dialogue that will help describe the tone of the overall piece, and how the story will basically be "re-created" from audio clips and black box recordings from the battle, the starships, escape pod distres calls, etc. Ought to be a lot of fun.
Mark [/QB]
Ohhh I have an idea - bear with me here:
I picture a satellite in orbit of either Wolf359 or a planet around that star - picking up the battle in it's cameras/sensors. Maybe tiny things at first and then the satellite moves and zooms in on the fight. A silent witness to what occured there, a passive observer.
I picture the trad Federation display graphics and moving arrows etc up and down the screen. I'm picturing beeps etc similar to what you hear in some of the NASA probe footage - like the footage of the Huygen's probe into the atmosphere of Titan.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: And the Excelsior is getting painted now.Mark
I'm sorry but you could do a little better with the paint job. The 'aztec' pattern is too... contrasting - be more subtle. Don't use such stark greys - something about it looks fake - maybe someway to change the 'texture' of the hull?
Also that yellowy-green around the bridge - gah! Looks hideous.
Other than that - looking good.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
It just seems a little dark to me, a lighter color for the hull, the pattern isn't bad, just make it the color that the hull is now. Maybe a touch more blue added to it.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I am getting a host not resolved error for your site Mark.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The ISP got axed this pas week - Karl's just put eveyrthing back together. Please update your links!
As for the Excelsior colouring, I've made a note to Karl already. We'll wait for all the detailing to be done and then we'll tewak.
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
You still haven't fixed "...throughout the Star Treck franchise,..."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
He'll do it nekst week.
quote:I picture a satellite in orbit of either Wolf359 or a planet around that star - picking up the battle in it's cameras/sensors. Maybe tiny things at first and then the satellite moves and zooms in on the fight. A silent witness to what occured there, a passive observer.
MIght be a good excuse to render one of those subspace communication relays...
You know, as you're doing a documentary on W359, why not make it like a History channel documentary- maybe set to commemorate the 10 (or 20!) year anniversary of the battle or something:
"It was fifteen years ago today that the universe changed as we knew it- a day that will live in infamy..." Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I spent a good chunk of today scripting the third scene - basically a montage of subspace messages and intercepted logs from people on ships headed to the battle, set against the background of space from the perspective of a trip through space to Wolf 359. Reads good on paper, anyway...
Mark
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
USS Absolution, named after a ship that used to appear on a Cartoon Network cartoon block called Toonami back when I was a wee lad.
Posted by Benjamin Peace (Member # 1939) on :
USS Beowulf.
Also, if you still need help with the phaser turrets take a look at the USS Britain in the beginning of TNG 'Night Terrors'.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Whatever happened to this project? It was going to be the fan film to end all fan films until I posted my little "absolution" request and project suddenly went dead. I didn't think my suggestion was that bad. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*sigh Brattain.
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Still happening. But given as it's essentially me as producer / director and one person as the animator, using a CG platform that generally isn't used for starships, it'll take a while.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
STILL happening. As I said in the first post, it will likely take years. But at last, an update... Karl is now working on the Cube we'll be using. Link here:
We're going to re-render the first trailer with this and the Excelsior model previously seen, fixing various errors along the way.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Looks good but needs those corners replaced! Currently it looks a bit ....eroded. I'm sure the various lights and such wil help it look more "alive" though.
Hmmm...do you plan on adding the green backlighting or just going with the studio model look? Speaking of which, did they ever auction off the original Borg Cube model? I missed it if so.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The cube has yet to be lit and properly "coloured" to its rusty bronze look. This latest update shows how the edges are maintained:
Huh. I liked it better before- those big metal plates were not on the model and would have to be hundreds of meters across.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
We're talking about that. But the big plates ARE on the original model in places, just obscured by additional pipes. We may have to remove them to be more accurate, but as it is we're scaling down the pipes so the cube won't betray its size:
A question- qill your Springfield have a secondary hull thingie? The moreI look at the model, the more ceratin I am that piece was just added for the one photograph. You should use Fructose's (remember him?) model as reference, methinks.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Barely remember Fruckie or his work... Is it still online somewhere?
Major revamp to the cibe based on suggestions from here and elsewhere... Click through the whole collection now:
The cube's looking a lot better now, though there still feels like something's missing. I think the details seem to large and too prominent. More pipes!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The dark face of the cube looks great- the lighted side really two dimensional and flat- needs more layers of pipes, I guess- with lower layers in shadow and those many, many glowing points that are certainly not windows (maybe the Borg assimilated the Crystaline Entity when it was decorated for christmas).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Karl is pretty well done with the cube, taking in a couple more suggestions. It's not the TNG cube as represented, but we think it's close enough to pass with some dramatic license (and it CERTAINLY does not resemble the Voyager cubes). Among things, the TNG cube physical model has pipes running diagonally, which is tough to model in AM on this scale. So, we hope it'll pass for the purposes of the project.
We'll be re-rendering the original trailer with this new model, and probably the Excelsior Karl's been working on. Next up, low-poly starships for storyboarding purposes!
Mark
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Test test... Huzzah! wow... I've had the password to post here for over a year and never realized it. Doh!!
Well, as Mark has mentioned, I am *done* that cube, and am now working on the rest of the ships, concentrating on the mesh, and worrying about the decaling later.
Currently I have cut a massive number of polygons out of the USS Gage, and have started on the additions to create the Enterprise B variant of the Exclsior class.
Things are finally happening.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Huzzah! Finally, proof that I'm not just a psycho nutjob with multiple personalities just PRETENDING to be a CG modelling genius!
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
You call that proof?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Huzzah! When are we gonna see more pictures?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Soon, I hope. Karl's basically learning this as we go along, so I hope we'll have enough material soon to re-render the first trailer, and get going on the second (which is scripted). We never said it'll be quick, but as long as I draw breath we'll be working to give this dream form.
Mark
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
You want to see more pics? Okay...
Here's the current status of the Excelsior Heavy Cruiser class.
All that's left of that is to add the bussard collecter input, copy it over, clean up the underlying mesh on the nacelles, and then get working on the secondary hull adjustments.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Very Nice!
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Alright boys and girls... I have a pretty nice sized update for you this weekend.
Thanks to finally being able to sit down with very few distractions, I was able to finish off the Excelsior Heavy Class cruiser, and get one heck of a start on an Oberth class ship.
Major progess made this weekend. Once the smaller details and a few glitches are fixed in the Oberth, we can declare at least 12 ships needed for this project complete... At least in the modeling department.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Mmmm...I love the glow of the Excelsior's bussard collectors. Also I liked how you provided some detail into the "notch" located in the oberth's secondary hull.
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Thank you. Now I just need to fix up those little glitches, and add the rest of the details on this ship that are *horribly* documented as far as I can tell.
If anyone has some really good shots of the details, like the stuff on the saucer platform, I would be grateful.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Are you kidding me? Fidning Oberth details is easy as fuck.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Then we've gots somehin' to shows ya, after this weekend... Karl's skills are very good at evoking the POINT of a model over necessary detail accuracy - there will always be some inconsistencies, but hopefully most won't notice them more than the story itself.
Mark
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Are you kidding me? Fidning Oberth details is easy as fuck.
No, I'm not kidding you. While there are many many Oberth images out there with very nice details on them... NONE of them show the impulse drive clearly that I have found -yet-.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Well. I'm sure you can find more if you need too. My suggestion? Have Jason Abbadon introduce you over at the Starship Modeler forums; I haven't been there in years as I don't build anymore. Modelers are always willing to show of detail bits, & I bet you'll be able to find things for anything you need.
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
And those last two were the only ones I needed to complete the detail list. --Thanks for snagging those.
And Starship Modeler just might indeed be useful, especially if anyone actually attempted to build any of the Excelsior test models...
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Not entirely sure what I'm going to work on next... Maybe I'll take a little break from Trek and work some more on models for my own personal use... I have been wanting to get some rendering done on my comic idea for a long time... I just need to make/convert the models need to start.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
These look terrific, and I can only imagine what they'll be like with textures. You're doing these with A:M? Brave! Also, I want to pick your brain.
On the Oberth model it looks like there may be a smoothing problem at the fore of the secondary hull, the rounded shape. Just looks like it might be a tad bumpier than you intended. Also I can't tell if it's just the angle, but is the shape in which it is nested supposed to be cut so deeply? Mind you I can only see these "problems" in the oberth06.jpg file. Great work though! Looking forward to seeing more
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Looks good- the ventral primary hull where the impulse engine cinnects is incorrect though- there are two recessed panels there and a small segmented detail part, not those twin tube thingies. I'lll dig up a correct model and take a pic.
It's a very minor detail though- probably fine to leave it "as is".
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
quote:Originally posted by bX: On the Oberth model it looks like there may be a smoothing problem at the fore of the secondary hull, the rounded shape. Just looks like it might be a tad bumpier than you intended. Also I can't tell if it's just the angle, but is the shape in which it is nested supposed to be cut so deeply? Mind you I can only see these "problems" in the oberth06.jpg file. Great work though! Looking forward to seeing more
Thanks for the comments. Yesm the rounded nose of the secondary hull might be a bit more bumpy than it should be. However I'm hoping texturing will hide that.
And as far as I can tell, the recessed area *is* cut that deep. One problem is that I need to round out that area to better fit how far in it goes. Though this just might be something that can be left alone. I have no clue how long this ship will be on camera... XD
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Looks good- the ventral primary hull where the impulse engine cinnects is incorrect though- there are two recessed panels there and a small segmented detail part, not those twin tube thingies. I'lll dig up a correct model and take a pic.
It's a very minor detail though- probably fine to leave it "as is".
It would be nice to have at least that area accurate, as another version of the Oberth will be quite prominant with that area right there for all to see. Thanks a bunch!
Posted by Pleiades10 (Member # 1958) on :
Looks like exellent stuff here!
(Yes Im here, still hanging on lol).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
geez...you're still a "junior" member? Can we change your name to "Aqualad"?
Post some new stuff slackers!
I gots some new Romulan models to share....later tonight, maybe.
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Blahgh! Finally slogged through 14 pages of posts to catch up so I didn't say something inane.
I don't know a damn thing about Animation Master, but I can help out if you need texturing. The only modeling I ever did was in POV-Ray, and the only thing I ever proved good at was planets. Don't know if there's a proggie to export POV files to AM though.
I'd also offer to help with any voice-over or panicked dying people voices, but my sound card cost $7 and the mic sounds like total shit through it.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
THAT part is actually okay. The aim of this project is to use dialogue and screams as though they were background combat chatter retrieved from data recorders of the wrecks. Staticky, low-quality recordings of people reporting damage, maneuvers, and screaming in agony are what we want, layered over and over on top of each other, into a sort of cacophonic muscial accompaniment.
We're not creating a true drama based on an historica event, we're reporting the battle as we thought it could have gone - think "Black Hawk Down" more than "Titanic". However, through the dialogue we will be crafting a story to go along with it, hinting at the lives of the people whom we know will be dead by the end of the show. They won't just be radio operators, as it were.
Mark
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
There are three types of files AM can deal with outside of it's own... .AV2, .3DS, .PLY
However it can use tga image files like every other 3D program, so creating the textures would greatly help.
And we do need Mars...
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
As far as I know, there's no way to export POV-Ray files to any other format, simply because it's a completely different way of doing things. Most programs use a wireframe approach to objects, but POV-Ray uses a mathematical approach, i.e. a sphere would be a line of code saying sphere{0,0,0,5}. Sorry to burst that bubble. But like you said, you could still help with textures!
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
No, but I used to have a program called Crossroads that could read POV-Ray files and export them to DXF or 3DS.
So about mars, I guess the best I could do would be still renders for background shots, but I have a hunch that will not cut the cheese. What kinds of textures do you need?
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
All that is really needed are the basics... An image map, and a displacement map.
The displacement maps that AM uses are basically greyscale images where black is the lowest, and white is the highest.
Can Crossroads also convert 3DS to POV? We could try a test of converting one of the ships to 3DS, and see what you can do with it...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Unfortunately I haven't seen Crossroads in years...I can take a look round for it, methinks.
POV uses the same format for heightmaps...but what are you looking for, precisely, in terms of size (as in coverage of the planet) and resolution?
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
Well, the plant will probably be pretty big in the background, so it will need to be detailed. Say...10,000 pixels?
As for coverage... Probably should play it safe and have as much of the planet covered as possible. Who knows what camera angles we will have right now.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I'm gonna start grabbing up maps and photos of Mars...this'll be fun Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I got some good topographical maps...they're perfect for reference as I make the heightmap.
Posted by tech85 (Member # 2006) on :
I join this site because I am trying to find Adam "mojo"Liebowitz. I Used to go to Brooklyn TEchnical High School with him. He got me interested in sci-fi. He spoke to me about Star Wars everyday. I always knew he'd be in some form of Sci-fi camp.
Posted by tech85 (Member # 2006) on :
I join this site because I am trying to find Adam "mojo"Liebowitz. I Used to go to Brooklyn TEchnical High School with him. He got me interested in sci-fi. He spoke to me about Star Wars everyday. I always knew he'd be in some form of Sci-fi camp.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
This isn't Facebook.
Posted by tech85 (Member # 2006) on :
I am new to the scene but would like to get to know the people i'm talking to. Johnny this isn't facebook. Novice it seem are not welcome if so say SO. Posted by Ventriloquists Got Shot (Member # 239) on :
Ignore Johnny, he's as much a novice as anyone else, so let him be.
You could send him a Private Message and it might notify him by e-mail, but maybe an enterprising member might sweep in and be able to hook you up with a more direct method of contacting him.
Don't let the snotty kids get to you.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by tech85: I am new to the scene but would like to get to know the people i'm talking to. Johnny this isn't facebook. Novice it seem are not welcome if so say SO.
This post bought to you by Torgo. Anyways, welcome to flare.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
tech85, please check your private messages.
Everyone else, back to Wolf 359!
Mark
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by tech85: I am new to the scene but would like to get to know the people i'm talking to. Johnny this isn't facebook. Novice it seem are not welcome if so say SO.
Sorry, don't listen to me. I was a bit disgruntled at you asking in a completely unrelated thread, but I shouldn't have been rude. New people are certainly welcome on here.
And actually, though I was being sarcastic about Facebook, that might be a useful tool if the other methods of contacting Mojo don't work. It does have the facility for searching former classmates, after all.
Posted by NEKOSEI (Member # 1844) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I'm gonna start grabbing up maps and photos of Mars...this'll be fun I got some good topographical maps...they're perfect for reference as I make the heightmap.
You can use it for a size reference, and then all I need to do is replace the images to have it map to the sphere properly.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Cool, post it here or PM me. The hard part is proving to be piecing together Mars photos into a starting map of the surface in visible light (and with enough res).
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
There are sites that already have maps of the planets. This site is quite handy. They have Mars and a handful of the other planets and moons.
Posted by tech85 (Member # 2006) on :
I find you guys friendly and quite interesting if someone could update me onthe ongoing conversations I'd probably have something good to say or learn a little bit more
Posted by tech85 (Member # 2006) on :
I find you guys friendly and quite interesting if someone could update me onthe ongoing conversations I'd probably have something good to say or learn a little bit more
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I've been trying to find a GIMP or Photoshop filter to make things go a little easier and faster... To make the topo map more helpful in creating the final product, I wanted to convert it from its crazy colors to a white/black image. Only problem is they use a *rainbow* as the legend, as you can see in this image.
I want a filter that would be able to take that rainbow and a white-black gradient as inputs, and convert each pixel in the topo map that matches the color in the source legend with the corresponding color in the output legend. Hope that makes sense. I've been hunting for about a week so I'm gonna give up soon and do it tediously manually.
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