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So I've had this urge for the last couple years to write a book. The fact that the Foundation series has never had a conclusion of any kind has always annoyed me. The cliffhanger at the end of Foundation and Earth really didn't have any way to move forward, as Asimov well knew. We got two or five prequels, depending on what you count. I personally say four, since "Foundation's Fear" was abysmal. But that's just me.
Anyway, after rereading the nine books I count and a few other of Asimov's works, I said to myself, "HA! A way forward! It uses all of the unresolved plot threads, creates no unnecessary new ones, and is consistant with the theme of some of Asimov's work!" I actually started writing it a year or two ago, and I actually have 13,000 words down, in four and a half chapters. I was on a long hiatus, mainly working on PiArmada, but Sunday I finally figured out where to take this story and resumed writing. Of course, it turns out that the new direction and ending actually sets up yet another book, which actually resolves everything. I'll have to change the name, dagnabit.
ANYWAY, here's the thing. One plot thread I absolutely must resolve is that of R. Daneel Olivaw. He needs to die. He's lived long enough, served long enough, and his death fits the theme I'm developing. He's already dying. But dramatically, how does one kill off Daneel? I am unaware of any character like him in literature. He's lived 20,000 years, spending every moment serving mankind as best he knows how.
Some part of me doesn't want to kill him. I thought about leaving him alive at the end as a human, free of the laws and with an unknown but limited lifespan. Maybe he could join the farmers on Trantor. Or maybe he could become a private detective, there'd be some nice irony there. Maybe he could just walk away, free to choose his destiny as any other human. Perhaps he could join the Voltaire and Joan sims, freely roaming the universe. Actually, that one just came to me as I type this post, and that might be worthy of further thought. Still, everything I've thought of up to now seems hollow in some way, as if it were unworthy of such a character.
So I pose the question: how do I kill Daneel Olivaw?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Interesting project you've got, there... I've been a fan of Asimov's "future history" series for many years now, and I've always been disappointed that he never got around to finishing the story before he died. Yeah, I know he had no idea how to continue past the conclusion to "Foundation and Earth"... but that conclusion is nowhere near as mind-bending and confusing as the final scene in "Chapterhouse: Dune"!
I've never read any of the "Foundation" novels that were written after Asimov's death. I was in the bookstore a few years ago and saw one of them on the shelf, picked it up briefly, realized that it was just some random author trying to make some money off Asimov's name, and put it back with a big "pfffft!". I have no idea what the books were about, how many there were, or what they're called. And honestly, I don't care.
Still, the idea of continuing the story past the end of "Foundation and Earth" is a very worthy one, and one that I would be most interested in reading when it's done. Also, I would probably actually trust a fan to write a more interesting story than some random professional author who's just trying to make a quick buck off of Asimov's name. (Fortunately, the Asimov estate can't send killer robots after you, because all their robots are governed by the First Law! )
So anyway, to answer your question directly...
I love Daneel, like most other sci-fi fans who have read Asimov's novels. He's one of the most original and unique characters out there, and one of the most beloved -- and for good reason. But I also agree that twenty thousand years of service is way more than enough for anyone, even a robot that doesn't necessarily care about the passage of time. He's succeeded more than anyone's wildest dreams... imagine the pride that Dr. Fastolfe would've had, had he known what role Daneel would play in protecting the Human race. (It would've swelled his already enormous ego too, of course...)
Anyway, I don't have an idea on how to kill Daneel at the moment, but my first thought was an allusion to Spock's death: "He's really not dead, as long as we remember him." Assuming that your story, Omega, is still following the progression towards the founding of Galaxia, I wonder if it's possible for Daneel's memories -- or dare I even suggest his "soul" -- to be preserved in Galaxia's consciousness/memories/essence, for everyone to share and understand in some form or another.
You could even take the idea one step further than that, if you wanted. After all, Gaia (and eventually Galaxia) has the ability to shape matter to its needs, right? Once Daneel's memories/soul is stored in Galaxia's essence, it might be reasonable to suggest that Galaxia could create a new Human body that served as a new vessel for Daneel's memories/soul. So that would follow your idea of Daneel ultimately becoming Human, and living out some "unknown but limited lifespan", as you put it.
Another idea, depending on how much time Daneel might have left before his positronic brain starts to break down, maybe he could pull something like the First Ones, and leave the galaxy for parts unknown, to see what's out there. I'm not sure if Daneel would actually have that quality of immense curiosity, or if he might have some more concrete purpose such as actually scouting out other parts of the universe for other sentient life (to see if they're a threat, maybe?). Based on what I've read of him, Daneel always struck me as very methodical and dedicated, but although he was very definitely sentient, I wouldn't call him Human, because he seemed to lack certain Human-like qualities -- such as intuition and curiosity. For all his advanced features (for a robot), he was still guided purely by logic. (Pretty much exactly like Data -- and of course Data was a deliberate homage to Daneel.)
I'll give this some thought, and see if I can offer up any more ideas or perspectives on this matter...
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Well, first off, those three authors weren't out to make a buck (exclusively). My understanding is that one (I think Brin) was approached by the Asimov estate to write the trilogy, and he suggested the other two share in the work. Bear's was better than Brin's, and Benford's was worse, so I guess it balanced out okay. Anyway, read "Foundation and Chaos". It's the second in the second trilogy, but the first wasn't worth reading, as I'm so fond of pointing out. It's very well done, and actually interweaves with the first story in "Foundation". The trial scene is reproduced, with much more detail and context.
Anyway, the Second Trilogy goes a long way to justifying Daneel's actions. Without it, you just have Daneel seemingly interfering with human development for no overriding reason. "Foundation and Chaos" introduces the motivation he needed. It also fleshes out the universe significantly, giving enough material to move forward. The direction I'm taking almost writes itself, from the loose ends, unanswered questions, and natural developments from all nine books that I'm counting. Of course, this is so long as I ignore Brin's proposed conclusion, which thankfully didn't make it into the published book. He wanted to have a cloned, youthful Seldon wake up in a cave shortly after Foundation and Earth. I refuse to involve Seldon, he's dead and, like Daneel, he should stay that way.
I'm actually not heading towards Galaxia. Reading all the books, especially the Second Trilogy, you get this ever-expanding list of people, factions, robots, all these groups that have an overriding vision of exactly what they want humanity to be. Daneel wants Galaxia, the Second Foundation wants their empire, the First wants theirs, one faction of Calvinian robots wants to build billions more of themselves and directly coddle mankind like the Spacer worlds, etc. And they're all actually operating under certain conditions that most don't even know about, which further constrain the direction we can go. But there's one robot who says to everyone, "How about we let the humans decide what they want?" And everyone thinks he's crazy. I'm going that way. Instead of having any one vision win at the end, I intend to destroy them all. Mankind will be free to choose its own destiny, without manipulation or constraint. It evolves naturally from the books, and seems a consistant ending with some of Asimov's other work, notably "The End of Eternity." Double the fun.
Mind you, I was planning to leave Gaia intact at the end of the book (or books), so there's no reason Daneel can't be part of it. That had occured to me. And your First Ones suggestion is similar to what I proposed regarding the Joan and Voltaire sims (which you'll understand upon reading the Second Trilogy). They multiplied themselves infinitely, and simply wander the universe in non-corporeal form, exploring. Thanks for your interest! If I ever finish it, you're certainly welcome to read it.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Hmm, interesting argument. I've got a lot more other books in the queue right now, but I think I will add "Foundation and Chaos" to the list, based on your recommendation.
I definitely like your argument about letting the Humans decide for themselves what they want, but I wonder how practical a course of action that might really be. On one hand, most of them just live ordinary lives and don't give a damn about which empire is ruling over them, so long as they can carry on as they have in the past. But then you have to consider the factions of power that each want their own slice of the pie, or want to have the whole pie for themselves. That would especially apply to the First and Second Foundations, which basically have an all-or-nothing mentality of controlling everything.
I really liked the idea of Gaia and Galaxia, mainly because some form of loose and tiered group consciousness can really help to bring peace and structure to civilization that a lot of people seem to crave, while still maintaining a good deal of individuality and allowing elements of chaos to keep things interesting (and also to promote evolution and change). Based on the three choices from the end of "Foundation's Edge", the First Foundation was basically complete chaos, the Second Foundation was (arguably) perfectly static, and Galaxia had the potential to be somewhere in between. And it seemed to me that Galaxia would preserve enough of Human individuality to avoid the worries that most people would have about their own identity.
But at the same time, I'm somewhat influenced by a bunch of the premises of the "Dune" series. One of the important factors in ensuring the survival of the Human race, according to Frank Herbert, is ensuring that Humanity is spread as far and wide as possible, and not linked to any single controlling influence. Based on that line of thought, Galaxia would actually be taking a step backwards, and bringing all of Humanity under further control of a single factor -- the group consciousness of Galaxia. Thus, if anything could somehow compromise Galaxia, that would effectively doom the Human race.
I guess there are a lot of pros and cons to consider, there. The gist of Asimov's argument at the end of "Foundation and Earth" was that Humanity needed to be united in order to face any alien species from some other galaxy. I would probably agree to that on most levels -- after all, a united Humanity can't be turned against itself -- but as the Borg have showed, once your enemy discovers a weakness, it can compromise the entire collective.
quote:Instead of having any one vision win at the end, I intend to destroy them all. Mankind will be free to choose its own destiny, without manipulation or constraint. It evolves naturally from the books, and seems a consistant ending with some of Asimov's other work, notably "The End of Eternity." Double the fun.
I've also read "The End of Eternity", and I can definitely see the merit in removing any form of control over the destiny of Humanity. As I said above, that's essentially the theme of the later "Dune" novels as well. But my concern is that on some level, that just introduces the potential for too much chaos and fragmentation. Or am I thinking way too conservatively here?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Chaos is a funny thing, as you'll find out in the second trilogy. It turns out that there's a reason most of humanity doesn't care who rules them, and why everything is so static. Daneel formed the empire and kept it stable for 20,000 years because humanity needed that stability to avoid descending into chaos and self-destruction, as the Spacers and Earth almost did in the Robot novels. Gaia is intended as the ultimate expression of that stability, with the Foundation as a stopgap measure for the interregnum. Seldon, though, had other ideas. He wanted the Foundation to defeat chaos once and for all, so that humanity might grow past it and become whatever it wanted to. Daneel couldn't take the risk, because the odds of the Foundation's success weren't good enough to overcome the cost if it failed.
It's interesting what the Dune and Foundation series have in common. If humanity stagnates, it will die, and this can only be avoided by totally altering the face of the universe, almost by sheer force of will. Only those with a clear view of the future can see the path that will bring survival. Come to think of it, old Andromeda shared some of the same themes.
One of my basic premises when starting this story was that there would be no new plot threads that did not evolve from old ones. There are no aliens, at least not that are relevant to the story. The universe is complex enough with Gaia, Solarians, Robots, two Foundations, and a man who is always right.
Any ideas on that one, BTW? I know what I'm gonna do with Trevize, but reading Edge and Earth, I have to wonder exactly what Asimov was doing with him. He's never wrong, and nobody EVER asks why. It's like his infallibility exists only to drive the plot forward, and that annoys me. I made up a nice explanation, rooted in the second trilogy, but I'm wondering if there are theories as to what Asimov was doing with him? Was he really just a McGuffin?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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WizArtist II
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quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
But at the same time, I'm somewhat influenced by a bunch of the premises of the "Dune" series. One of the important factors in ensuring the survival of the Human race, according to Frank Herbert, is ensuring that Humanity is spread as far and wide as possible, and not linked to any single controlling influence. Based on that line of thought, Galaxia would actually be taking a step backwards, and bringing all of Humanity under further control of a single factor -- the group consciousness of Galaxia. Thus, if anything could somehow compromise Galaxia, that would effectively doom the Human race.
And yet, thanks to the bots, ALL the alien threats to humanity were eliminated prior to human dispersion throughout the galaxy. I believe that growth can only come through struggle. A human that has overcome nothing IS nothing. Thanks to RDO, there has been no TRUE struggle, just minor "exercises" into crises. If I also remember correctly, the "Giskards" were manipulating humanity away from concepts that would have led to further robot developments. Such limiting factors have a way to cause stagnation by maiming the creativity factors of human intelligence. Much like giving an artist a single crayon and telling him to do art. He might do some fine work within the bounds of a single hue, but what would he have accomplished if he had ALL the colors?
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Well, there were mitigating factors in Daneel's actions. If he and the Giskardian robots hadn't limited humanity's creativity in all the ways they did, humanity would have self-destructed from Chaos. Humanity does need to go beyond the limits imposed upon them, but those limits were no less necessary for their time.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Finally I have found people other than myself who are fans of the Foundation series. So far I've read Prelude to Foundation(my favorite), Forward the Foundation(so-so), Foundation(good albeit tedious at times), Foundation and Empire(second favorite), Second Foundation(third favorite), and Foundation's Edge(also pretty good). Hopefully I'll be able to get Foundation and Earth soon. Whatever you propose to do, for the love of Seldon do not give Gaia any power! Even though people may think it's the way to go, I believe there is a much better way to forge a Second Empire. To me, Gaia seems like hippie version of the Borg Collective.
Anyways, a good way to kill Daneel is to have him watch the I,Robot feature film starring Will Smith. Hopefully that'll make him drop like a sack of potatoes :)I/we/Gaia can't wait to read your fanfiction.
(BTW I heard that there was talk of a Foundation movie?)
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Um...(forgive me if i'm off base- it's been a decade since I read these) was'nt there the unresolved threat of the creepy telepahic hermaphradotic little "kid" at the end of the last Foundation book?
It's certainly implied that he's the "inhuman threat" (as I recall).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Well, yeah, but that was absurdly heavy-handed, and still left nowhere to really go with it. Besides, as for that specific kid, I think Daneel's gonna borrow his brain, so he probably won't be much of a threat any more.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Talk about tastes... of the 'Second Trilogy', Brin's book (the last, 'Foundation's Triumph') is what I'd call the 'Asimovianest', the other two unnecessarily complicate the story of Hari Seldon and introduce concepts foreign to the Foundation Universe. IMO, if Brin hadn't had to follow up the previous two books, he'd have written an even better story within the lines of what Asimov wrote around the Foundation... 'Foundation's Fear' and 'Foundation and Chaos' got the 'The Six Really Dangerous Words' from me. Making a parallel between the Foundation Universe and the Trekverse, I'd say the Second Trilogy is akin to Enterprise, with Benford and Bear corresponding to Berman and Braga, and Brin to Coto...
I have my own ideas for two or three stories set in the Foundation Universe, but as I may have said here already (or maybe it was somewhere else), my writing style is more in the form of a 'script', and I need someone else to polish it and place it in a more 'narrative' style (just as someone mentioned Shatner did with his collaborations with the Reeves-Stevenses). I had started working on that with a friend some years ago, but then he went to Canada for some postgraduate studies and I don't see him too often ever since...
[ March 23, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: machf ]
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Um...(forgive me if i'm off base- it's been a decade since I read these) was'nt there the unresolved threat of the creepy telepahic hermaphradotic little "kid" at the end of the last Foundation book?
It's certainly implied that he's the "inhuman threat" (as I recall).
I'd say the ending is very ambiguous, you could for example see it as Fallom being humanity's last hope against any external threats (after having merged with Daneel, that is). I'm not saying that's it, it's just another possible interpretation that just occured to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Ffanfiction.
(BTW I heard that there was talk of a Foundation movie?)
Seems like there always is some talk of a Foundation movie, but it never gets done...
Personally, I'd go with either a miniseries or a series of movies. Before doing the Foundation series, pave the way by starting with Harlan Ellison's adpatation of the 'I, Robot' stories, then follow with the four Baley/Olivaw novels, then the three Empire novels, and only then proceed with the Foundation series.
I've always felt that the original introduction to "Foundation" when it was first published (serialized in a magazine, not anthologized in book form) fits nicely just before the epilogue in "Forward the Foundation". Of course, if you're talking about making a movie, it would need to also include "The Psychohistorians" right there. Or make it two movies, one from "Prelude" and the other from "Forward" and "The Psychohistorians", properly arranged.
As I've mentioned to toher people several times (the last time was about a week ago), the various chapters of the original trilogy could be re-grouped as:
The Psychohistorians (though this would fit better with "Prelude" and "Forward", as I already said) Foundation (The Encyclopedists) Bridle and Saddle (The Mayors)
The Big and The Little (The Merchant Princes) The Wedge (The Traders) (with Lathan Devers, as originally written) Dead Hand (The General)
The Mule Now You See It... (Search By The Mule) ...And Now You Don't (Search By The Foundation)
So, you first have one centered around Salvor Hardin, then another about the meeting of the Foundation and the Empire until their final confrontation, and finally, one about the Mule and the Second Foundation (the latter more than the former).
Then you can follow with Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth (as both are centered on Golan Trevize), either as a single one or two separate ones if it becomes too long (like with Prelude+Forward).
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Yeah miniseries would be much better, since if the novels were made into movies, they would probably end up being a Star Wars ripoff.
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