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Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

What do you think of Sci-Fi ships that are based on or look a lot like ships of other Sci-Fi series/movies etc., or even based on/look like real airplanes??

Example 1: Star Trek's Species 8472 Bioship and Babylon 5/Crusade's Vorlon ships and Excalibur.

Example 2: Star Wars I: Queen Amidala's ship and the real life SR-71 Blackbird (link opens in new window).

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I think it should be stopped immediately, and those responsible flogged in the public square.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The 8472 ships really don't look like Vorlon ships in structure, IMO.

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Frank's Home Page - free pencil with every visit!

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

A spanking, a spanking!!

Great examples!! 8472's ships were far to close to Vorlon fighters. I could overlook it if they were designed by the same person.

Our resident retired Col.(U.S. Army) says that the Blackbird is still our best survielance air craft. Designed in the '60's and still number one!! Hell of an airplane.

After reading Franks post, I concede that he knows ship design far better then I, but the first thing I thought of after seeing 8472 ships firing weapons, was, Darn, that's a Vorlon ship.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited September 09, 1999).]

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Shadow: You may be right about that, but have you seen the Excalibur??

Kosh: They ARE designed by the same guys, and they are also responsible for the Krenim Timeship that looks a lot like the Babylon 5 station.

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited September 09, 1999).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, yes, I have seen the Excalibur...

I'd actually need a clear picture of the 8472 ships. I originally thought they looked like Skipray Blastboats.

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Frank's Home Page - free pencil with every visit!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Species 8472

Excalibur

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

A visual of the Excalibur would be nice, as I've never seen it.

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"I will remember you...Will you remember me?
Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..."
Sarah McLachlan

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Way ahead of you

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

I don't care. I'll applaud Foundation Imaging, anyway.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Me too!!
They make top quality starships!

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Ah...I see the vague Vorlon resemblance. It looks a bit like the Excalibur too, indeed.

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Frank's Home Page - free pencil with every visit!

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I had thought there was a bigger ship, that looked more like the Vorlon then this one, but a search has found only the same pics.

That very pic of the Excalibur is the reason I started using the Nickname. JPL asisted in that design.I have the pic as wall paper here at work. (My wallpaper at home is a nude pic from Jennicam)

Just remembered, I'm using the eclipse pic that Sol posted, for wallpaper here at work.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited September 09, 1999).]

Posted by Chimaera on :

Another example: The Omega Class Destroyers from Babylon 5 and the Alexi Leonov from 2010, in shape and structure the two are very similar, with the rotating section near their middle.

I don't actually mind when ships look similar, after all, its bound to happen with the amount of science fiction that's being done now. It doesn't mean that one is blatantly copying the other, just that someone came up with a different variation of a simple design. For instance, the 8472 ship and the Excalibur are both triwings, with an enlargement on the bow for weapons. I never actually thought of them being similar until reading this thread, and I still don't. After all, its also the same basic design of the Chig advanced prototype fighter from Space: Above and Beyond. Other than shape, they're different ships in many other ways.

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"But, it was so artistically done."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The Excalabur also shares some design similarities with the Liberator from Blake's 7.

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"Why can we never meet anyone nice?"
"Why can we never meet anyone who can shoot straight?"
-Lister and the cat

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Kosh: That's probably the Evil mothership in the new adventures of Flash Gordon. I saw a few episode of that cartoon, that ship had exactly the same 4 forward 'spines'.

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

When i first saw an Omega-class destroyer I immediately thought it a rip-off of the Leonov in 2010.

But Liam's point has been a revelation. I knew the Excalibur was familiar. Now I know it simply needs a green globe stuck on it's rear. And jms did say he liked Blake's 7 at that!

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Oh Mr Rasberry, so sharp your juices!

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Funny, there's one you're missing in the Omega/Leonov mould - the Marine ship from Aliens, whatever it was called. . .

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I feel it's wrong to scorn a ship just because of similarities. There are only so many variations of a ship's shape.
And why change a winning concept? If you want bureaucratic and dull ships, come star-destroyers and borg cubes. If you want evil and intimidating ships, come shadow-vessels and chig-fighters. If you want organic and harmonious ships, come vorlon-shuttles and 8472-ships. If you want military ships, come Wing Commander cruisers and S:AaB battleships. And if you want elegant and beautiful ships, let's have excelsior's and naboo-fighters.

If you try to come up with a new and totally unconventional design that doesn't copy any of the above, you'll end up with Breen ships!

Now don't thrash me at once, I only wanted to help.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

IMO, ISDs are much better looking than most other sci-fi ships, and they have a more viable structure.

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Frank's Home Page - free pencil with every visit!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I like you Nimrod

You're right, either that or you'll end up with 'Mega Maid'

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited September 10, 1999).]

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Just saw space balls last weekend.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The ship from Aliens was the Sulaco. Though it's probably spelled differently.

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"Just because you're floating doesn't mean you haven't drowned."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Hello!?! The species 8472 ships first appeared in 1997 in Scorpion 1...

Babylon 5 - let alone season 5 nor Crusade had started or been aired then...

And I really don't think they look like Vorlon ships - only that they are organic in origin.

Andrew

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"All is full of love, all around you" - Bj�rk

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, they both do have forward-facing tentacles, and they are yellowish, but I didn't think much of it when they were introduced (8472 that is) and I still don't. I like!

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And on that highly succesful burn I'm going into the polarbear-cage to get me some wallets
so I can get some beer-money. Adios! "Daaaeaehh" "Splash"

Chris Farley in SNL, bless his soul.

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

The Drakh were first seen midway through season 4, ie early 1997. Hardly conclusive, but it's closer than you think. Please don't start reacting with complete indignation just at the mere suggestion that the hallowed Trek might steal from the infidel B5. . .

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What did the drakh ships look like now again? I remember a big mothership but not da fajters.

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And on that highly succesful burn I'm going into the polarbear-cage to get me some wallets
so I can get some beer-money. Adios! "Daaaeaehh" "Splash"

Chris Farley in SNL, bless his soul.

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Uhm...
The Vorlon ships were intruduced in the first or second season of Babylon 5, years before 'Scorpion'.

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :

The Vorlon ships were first seen in the pilot of Babylon 5. Which was first aired in Feb '93.

The Drazi Sunhawk starships from B5 were intended as a homage to the Liberator. They even have the bulb at the back.

Of course, the Liberator is still one of the best starships ever seen on TV. Great model, pity that the BBC didn't know how to film it properly back in the late '70s.

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-->Identity Crisis<--

Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :

Actually the Vorlons were even in the B5 universe in Season 5, they left after "Into the Fire". Also the Vorlon ships were actually the second ships to be designed, the first ship was B5 of course

. Actually the newest ship in the Vorlon fleet was there Planet Killer designed in Season 4.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

ID Crisis: Yep, Ron Thornton was apart of the FX team that did Blakes 7. He built the Scorpio in his living room. Also, the design of the Excalibur was also based on the Liberator.

HMS White Star: Umm, I believe one of the Transport ships was created first before Babylon 5. Then came B5, then came the Vorlon Transport. I think I still have the interview with Ron Thornton with that, I'll check.

Also, one question. Your name is based of the White Star company that launched the Titanic. Since they were in the merchant business, shouldn't you be named RMS White Star since HMS is reserved for military ships?

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Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5/Crusade Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

Contributing Writer
Beyond Babylon
http://www.b5mg.com/Beyond_Babylon

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I really missed Foundation Imaging when they left. Sure, Into the Fire might have had better quality SFX, but the pace and direction wasn't as good as The Long Twilight Struggle, or Messages from Earth, or Severed Dreams.

About the only SFX seaons 4-5 did that topped Ron Thorton was Sleeping in Light...

I've got a '93 interview with Ron Thorton in Amiga Format, where he talks about this cool new sci-fi series that'll be using Amiga's. I'll have to drag it out.

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"Why can we never meet anyone nice?"
"Why can we never meet anyone who can shoot straight?"
-Lister and the cat

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

Actually, I thought the main battle (the second one, not the first) could have gone down as the worst major CGI battle in B5. The thing with NDEI I've learned is that they have really no consistency. It's either great or it sucks. They have good modelers, decent texturers, but very questionable animators. Unlike FI.

Given the circumstances back then, I seriously doubt FI could have done a better job with the last half of B5 season 4 than ND did. At the time, Foundation was a smaller company and was also doing Hypernauts. Now if you're Ron Thornton and you had the choice between putting your people on you series that you created or B5, you're probably going to pick your own, and that was what happened. Looking back, FI had a big drop from Severed Dreams, and that had more than a "few" CG errors. Plus, was anybody here thrilled with Shadow Dancing? ND is very good at making planetary scenes and meshing CGI/static sets, something FI doesn't have too much experience. Plus, FI is a more experienced company, too.

So at the time it worked out, although there were certainly sometimes I wished Mojo won that card game.

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Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5/Crusade Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

Contributing Writer
Beyond Babylon
http://www.b5mg.com/Beyond_Babylon

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

You're right about Shadow Dancing, but I still preferred it to 'Into the Fire'. And while the White Star breaking throught the glass window in Z'Ha'Dum wasn't especially realistic, it sure was emotional. Which in the end, is more important.

That Mojo card reference went right over my head though. Care to explain?

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"Why can we never meet anyone nice?"
"Why can we never meet anyone who can shoot straight?"
-Lister and the cat

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Lost me there, too.

"Shadow Dancing" remains the only episode of B5 I've not seen. . . Must do something about that sometime.

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"Now that we've chosen to take all we can
This shade of autumn, a stale bitter end
Years of frustration lay down side by side

And it's only you, who can tell me apart
And it's only you, who can turn my wooden heart. . ."

- Portishead, "Only You"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Sorry I haven't replied to this thread for a while, but I was refering to the comments that the species 8472 ships were based on the EXCALIBUR! nonsense.

Yes the Vorlon ships were created in '93 but the Vorlon and Species 8472 ships look NOTHING alike, except they are both a shade of yellow, and the have 'prong projections!' - nothing else. Gee I wish people would read messages posted PROPERLY before responding... sheesh.

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"All is full of love, all around you" - Bj�rk

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

Actually, the Excalibur was mostly based around the Liberator of Blakes 7. Designs started around '96 and some of the designs they threw around were very odd (one kind of looked like the Sulaco even).

The thing that makes the Vorlon/8472 ships very similar is the texturing on the CGI model. That is more of a fault at Foundation than most anything. However I can't really be sure about the Krenim Weapon Ship.

I don't mind people "borrowing" things from other SciFi series, it's when they do a poor job at it (like Voyager usually does) it bugs me.

For those who missed Shadow Dancing, you missed it again this morning. I also preferred Shadow Dancing to Into the Fire. Nothing about the CG in the first half of Season 4 was anything impressive. Second half, however, was pretty good (except for Thunderbolts flying like X-Wings).

For that card game reference, it was in Mojo's bio at the FI main site. Basically after Season 3 with everything that happened on both sides they decided to have a card game between Mojo and jms. If Mojo won, FI would have stayed for the full run. And history tells the rest.

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Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5/Crusade Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

Contributing Writer
Beyond Babylon
http://www.b5mg.com/Beyond_Babylon

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Well, I feel that the only poor job of CGI that has occured on voyager was the Krenim time ship... the first time i saw it I though B5 too, but since then - they must have been slapped around the ears a bit - because most of the ships have been very nice - and some VERY innovative... not really a ship example - but look at the CGI work in '30 Days'... very nice stuff.

I agree, I enjoyed Shadow Dancing battle better than the Corianas Six battle.

It is visually exciting and beautiful.

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"All is full of love, all around you" - Bj�rk

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

*curses repeatedly* That's at the end of season 3, and in terms of collecting the vids I'm only at the start. I only get them when they're reduced - like when HMV does 3 for �15 or something - and I've even stopped that while I wait for the DVD question to be resolved. . .

Here's a thing though: at the moment HMV ARE doing a 3 for �15 offer, but only on the volumes up to the one BEFORE "Severed Dreams." That means there are only 2 I don't have, vol. 2 (it's got "Infection" on it. 'Nuff said) and vol. 22 - downright inconvenient. You can NEVER get "SD" on reduced video, it's already sold out or not included in the offer. It's become an obsessiojn by now, I will ONLY buy that tape if it's reduced.

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"Now that we've chosen to take all we can
This shade of autumn, a stale bitter end
Years of frustration lay down side by side

And it's only you, who can tell me apart
And it's only you, who can turn my wooden heart. . ."

- Portishead, "Only You"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Coincidentally, (was that right?) our TV 4 aired the ALIENS: Director's Cut yesterday (19/9). Man did you get good shot's at the Sulaco! And longer than the cut version too! In my outrageously humble opinion I must say it should be high up on the
"bulky, antenna-covered, gray destroyers"-list!

Does anyone have an opinion on the "Event Horizon"?
I thought I should bring in some fresh blood!

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This Windows ninety-fi-i-ive,
it's sucking up my dri-i-ive,
when my pc,
is obsolete,
I have to buy myself a brand-new-machiiine.

(That Weird guy)

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

I like the Event Horizon. . . I just feel rather conflicted about the movie itself. There was the germ of something good in there, but it never quite came through. . . I'm not about to dismiss it out of hand, though. . .

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, yeah.. Of all the places it could go it had to get to the absolute hell.
On the other hand, the theory of atoms being connected somehow despite the distance between them, is pretty interesting.
But I must admit I wasn't all that cocky after watching it alone at three in the morning in our house in the country.
About THE "event horizon", do you guys think it is a nice mix between D7, B'Rel and D'Deridex?

IIRC, the scaling between the rescue ship and the E.V. made it look at 1Km+.

Thoughts?

------------------
This Windows ninety-fi-i-ive,
it's sucking up my dri-i-ive,
when my pc,
is obsolete,
I have to buy myself a brand-new-machiiine.

(That Weird guy)

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I'm not drifting too far, am I?

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Another ship that is similar to something else

The X-Men's plane (I believe they called it the Aurora, didn't they?) is based heavily off the SR-71 Blackbird, though the X-Mens plane had vertical take-off/landing capability and a forward swept wing design

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"I am Sci-Fi"
-The 359

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

*ahem*

That's because it WAS an SR-71. Why do you think they named the dragon Lockheed?

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe

Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :

Well Dan I could have changed my name to the HMS Lusitania (sp)(which was a military ship, techincally it was a Crusier). Also I am sure B5 was first, then the Vorlon ships, I remember something about basing Vorlon ships on the shape of Garlic, or perhaps a Squid, I don't remember it been a long time since I read that.

Btw, Dan triva question name the first time the White Star appeared on B5.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

Posted by Dan (Member # 129) on :

Well, here's the quote from the interview with Ron Thornton at Lurker's Guide:

quote:
Jason Ironheart's ship (Mind War) was the first ship Ron built via computer (and was also seen in the pilot "The Gathering") in tribute to some of his
"teachers" and is reminiscent of the Zep One from the British television show Captain Zep.

And the Vorlon Transport:

[quote]Thornton: "It's a clove of garlic, actually. I got the idea driving through the town of Gilroy which is kind of like the garlic capital of the world and has this absolutely delicious smell."

The clove of garlic grew into an organic ship which Thornton used to sell the idea of Organic Technology to Straczynski to be used by some of the alien races[quote]

About the White Star question, which White Star? There's the one we know and love that first appeared in Matters of Honor, but there's the "Passenger Liner White Star" that was mentioned in TKO. Which are YOU refering to?

------------------
Daniel Henderson
Senior Babylon 5/Crusade Editor
http://www.myrkr.com

Contributing Writer
Beyond Babylon
http://www.b5mg.com/Beyond_Babylon

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

And Gilroy is near Morgan Hill, California (aka Moron Hell) where our main man Charles lives. Coincidence? I don't think so. . . 8)

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"Have you seen blood in the moonlight, Will? It appears quite black."

- Dr. Hannibal Lecktor (Brian Cox), Manhunter (Michael Mann, 1986)

Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :

*Clap, clap* the one in TKO, dang you got that

. But it was the first White Star on B5.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

AH, the X-Men jet

That one is NOT a SR-71 Blackbird, although it is called Blackbird.
The X-Men Blackbird has forward swept wings, the real Blackbird has delta wings, the X-Men BB has a lot of room to walk in, the real BB has only got 2 seats.

BUT: It still is a ship based on a real jet .

Keep on going...

------------------
"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I didn't say it, Xavier did! I make no claims for the actual accuracy of his statements.

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"And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot."
--
The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe

Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :

Yes the Blackbird certainly isn't a SR-71 (or if Ford hadn't screwed up the name an RS-71), perhaps it's V/STOL capablities make it very different. It seems like a transport version of X-29/Harrier hybrid.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )