Karma paid me beck for not utterly destroying my enimies by allowing me to see Matrix: Reloaded tonight in a private viewing of only 10 people! I won't spoil the movie for you, but I can honestly say that it so far outshines the original as to make it look like STV by comparison. [u]Amazing.[/u]
[u]DO NOT LEAVE THE THEATRE AFTER THE ENDING!!![/u] Eight minutes after the ending there is the full length preview for Matrix: Revolutions. There is even the chance to find out exactly what was in the drop from the Osiris.
Best of all: I may get to go see it again tomorrow night! 8)
P.S.- Terminator 3 has a great full preview before the movie and I'm really looking forward to a movie I was going to skip because of it!
{Edit - Sorry, but the title was bugging me -- Siegfried}
[ May 13, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
The trailer for T3 had better give me some mighty oral sex for it to get me to go see the movie.
But, jokingly: Where will I fit in this new Matrix movie? I will see Reloaded, Revolutions and Readed, but in what order?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You'll be that black cat from the first movie: Cool looking as scenery, but pretty glitchy and a minor part of the story. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A joke so funny I posted twice... WAIT A MINUTE! THIS COULD BE A "GLITCH"!
Gotta go: some guys in dark glasses are at the door.....
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
X-Men had 40 special effects. X-Men II had 400 special effects. Reloaded has 4000 special effects...
And I've got tickets for opening day! The theatre's gonna be jam-packed for the next two weeks, unbelievable, not even Episode I could pull that off.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Let's hope under all of those 4000 special effects - there is still a solid story-line and characterisation. Nemesis might have had a 'battle scene' - and the cool impact scene which they spoiled in the trailer - but it had not much else to it. I'm just using Nemesis as an example cause of the recent thread on it.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The line in the trailer by Jada Pinkett Smith, "I've got a feeling it's gonna be one helluva ride..." was a bit too cheesy advertising IMO.
Usually only watered-down, old franchises (Escape from LA, Under Siege 2) use lines like that in their sequels. "Time to rock'n'roll again", "Sit tight and be prepared *booom* to be blown...away!". Sure, whatever you say, bub.
Not to worry, I'm confident "Matrix Readed" will have me licking my proverbial chops.
Just think, the new actors will probably have gone through that standard three-month Kung Fu training, but the original cast must have kept improving their already ok skills!
Many of the "Subway station" moves from Matrix were a bit weak and slow, but from what I've seen in the "Rhoideaded"-trailer, Neo's moves look better than ever.
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
It was EIGHT months this time! For 2 movies, but still. The mass-fight with all the Agent Smiths has more moves than in all of Matrix 1!
It was said in a Making of movie I saw yesterday. BTW: Carrie-Ann Moss is known to be a hell of a driver behind the sets. She got some of the driving stunts under control in record times.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
This is treading dangerously close to Spoiler territory, methinks, and since there are no warnings in the title, people might assume this thread is spoiler free....
Don't get me wrong... I've seen the previews and stuff, but I still have no idea what the plot is other than Neo kicks ass... and I'd like to keep it that way Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NO Spoilers, but I will say that the story far outshines even the new visual effects. Prepare to use your brain in this one. We'll be discussing it for a few months after you guys see it. Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
So by the time we get our minds wrapped around The Matrix: Reloaded, it'll be time for our minds to get warped from The Matrix: Revolutions?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by NightWing: It was EIGHT months this time! For 2 movies, but still. The mass-fight with all the Agent Smiths has more moves than in all of Matrix 1
Yeah, but according to a Wired article, that entire scene was CG... Reaves and Weaving say some snappy lines, then they switch to digital doubles for all of the fighting. I guess technically, somebody did the moves for motion capture, but it's not quite the same as pure actor-actor fighting as in other scenes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nope! Not ALL the fighting in that scene is CGI. Only the scene of all the agents flying off of Neo (as seen on every commercial, so that's hardly a Spoiler!). There is mre "real" fighting in this one than in the previous movie....and we get to see Morpheous fight too!
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
"Fans will wear out their remotes replaying the scene on DVD, but what they won't see, even riding the Pause button, is a transition that happens early on. When Neo and Agent Smith walk into the courtyard, they are the real Reeves and Weaving. But by the time the melee is in full effect, everyone and everything on the screen is computer-generated[...]"
"[The] virtual camera needed to be able to see behind and around things, and to know what was obscured by any particular angle, so that if the Wachowskis wanted to try different passes through the Burly Brawl, the entire scene would already be in ESC's computers, captured in code, as real as if it was a physical set. Unlike a physical set, however, the scene would be moving - alive with the rage of hundreds of men fighting in top form. Bullet Time squared."
"The process of creating multiple Smiths was fairly straightforward. First Gaeta and his crew turned a 250,000-square-foot hangar in Alameda into the biggest motion-capture dojo in the world. The punishment was relentless for Yuen Woo-Ping's army of black belts; between the sequels and the videogame, they did hundreds of takes a day. Buffed out with CG muscle, tailored in simulated suits, and animated with collision data obtained from digital crash-test dummies, the torsos of Yuen's warriors were transformed in postproduction into wave upon wave of attacking Hugo Weaving clones."
I suppose that "by the time the melee is in full effect" they might mean "for one five-second part of the melee," but I doubt it (especially since the transition is "early on").
If, by chance, you mean that there's real one on one fighting before Smith starts replicating, then obviously the above doesn't apply. I haven't seen it just yet. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You can definitely tell when the CGI Neo is used: it look about as real as the CGI in Last Flight of Osiris. No bad at all: just noticable if you look for it. And definitely not in every shot of the fight.
You'll see.
And Trek fans might notice the actor that played Admiral daugherty has a role...as does the actor that played Sci-Fi's Invisible Man.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Anthony Zebre and Fun Bobby from Friends are in this movie?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Um...I guess so. I sure don't know the actor's names or ever watch Freinds. The guy from Invisible Man is only in it for a minute, but the older actor has a good role. Jeeez! I can NOT wait to share some ideas I have about this movie with you guys! Definitely a movie that will make you think.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"The punishment was relentless for Yuen Woo-Ping's army of black belts;"
I thought Kung Fu had no belt grades.
Of course, they could have anyone doing the stunts, really, the rebels train many things besides Kung Fu in the training programs.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Morpheous uses a more kendo/ jujitsu style most of the time. With his katana. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
No, Kung-Fu has dans, or grades. The belt system comes from the Japanese martial arts and was adopted by Korean m.a during the Japanese occupation (the Imperial military used colored belts as a form of identifying rank)... some Chinese schools imitate it, but most view the system as unnecessary.
Anyhow, the image of the black belt has been greatly exaggerated in the West... it means that one is a beginner, ready to seriously study the martial art. All belts below black are merely preparatory. Beyond black are the dans.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I saw a documentary on Dateline, I think, where they were filming the motion capture of that courtyard fight. Reeves and a whole bunch of other people were dressed in body suits running around and fighting. So, it was Reeves at least in some of the filming.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
About CGIing characters - when I downloaded the final trailer - when I watched it the second time - the first time my jaw just dropped - I noticed CLEAR cgi in the "Neo doing the 360 kicking with the pole on all the Agent Smiths"
And when that person jumps onto a car and it smashes. Even picked that up at the cinema.
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
Note that the CGI in trailers often uses rough versions instead of parts the final movie. I've seen several different runs of Morpheus slashing throught the Twins. The first trailers don't show the Twins turning into ghosts, but newer trailers show the same scene and there they do change.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Just bought my tickets online for 5:45 tomorrow... I wanted to see it tonight at 10:00 (one of the 1,500 early showing screens is right up the road) but my girlfriend will be just getting off work and a little tired. I've been convinced by the advertising that this will be a life-changing, reality-altering event, so the delay is a bit annoying.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I don't know about "life changing" but it does set a new standard for an action movie: as Lawerence Fishburne said in an interview with Charlie Rose last night: "The technology is finally there to allow you both experience and THINK in an action movie"
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
It was....amazing. The entire highway scene was kickass! The Smith battles were great.
"The best thing about being me... Is that there's more than one of me..."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Glad SOMEBODY else managed to see it! By Friday everyone will be yappin'! Yes, the highway scene kicked ass! Neo's entrance there was something that'll be poorly reproduced in many superhero movies in the next few years for sure!
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Sheer fucking brilliance.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"That was a hell of a thing..."
Damn.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Must...not...read... any... poilers....
I'm probably not going to have time to see this for a couple of weeks... I'm going to be in hell as I see this topic stay at the top of the list all that time.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
We'll ride this one out together, Aban. Be strong, be strong, Daniel-san!
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
So I saw it. That was the most plot-heavy action movie I've ever seen, which is a very good thing. Even though there are $$$ in the thread title, maybe spoiler space is in order...
S P O I L E R S
R
U S
Okay. We get all sorts of good exposition about the Matrix and the machines/programs. Some reviewers are saying they don't get all of the Architect's speech. Let me see if I've got it straight. Those who have seen the movie can confirm or dispute.
***
So the machines essentially won the war the first time. They capture everyone and plug them into the power grid, and the Architect writes the first Matrix program. However, things go wrong because the humans see through the too-perfect reality. So they scrap the first Matrix and build another based on human history.
This one fails, too. The Oracle is written to analyze human behavior and figure out why. She figures that humans need free will, so another Matrix is written. This time, they let the humans have the subconscious ability to detect the Matrix. A minority figures it out, and try to escape. The Agents are designed to scare most of these back in line, so they don't spread the freedom meme.
However, as a result of the free-will clause, there is an anomaly that eventually manifests itself as the One. The Oracle propheces to insure that this will happen, because when the One returns to the Source, the program is recompiled or something and starts over. At the same time, the machines destroy Zion.
After Zion is destroyed and the Matrix resets itself, the whole thing starts over. A few humans escape, rebuild Zion, and so on, the One comes, returns to the Source, five times. The sixth time, however, Neo chose to save Trinity rather than humanity at large. This is the first time the One has done so. The machines, having gone through this before, are confident they can destroy Zion. Without the One, they will have to scrap the Matrix and kill all the humans in it, but they can survive.
***
Thoughts and questions...
1.) This has happened five times before. Apparently, Zion was destroyed every time, and rebuilt to the same elaborate splendor. Was Morpheus off in his date estimate from the first Matrix? He said they weren't sure what year it was... it seems to me that rather than 2199, it might be closer to 2999 or even 3999. Furthermore, how many Matrices did it take before the whole One thing came up? It could literally be millennia in the future...
2.) The Architect said that Neo could choose the founders of the next Zion. Do they get false memories, or do they just wake up in a cave and start building?
3.) This is an obvious question that will be answered in Revolutions, but what exactly did Neo do to the sentinels? I'm guessing the other guy that survived did the same thing... Christ/Antichrist set-up.
4.) Sweet merciful crap, Neo's saving of both Morpheus/keymaker and Trinity was the most bad-ass special-effects work I've ever seen!
5.) Jason, I see what you meant about the Burly Brawl effects. It seems that for the first stage of the fight, it is Reeves versus Weaving-mapped doubles with digital Weavings in background, and after he picks up the pole, we go to full CGI until the end of the fight. Sound about right?
I guess that'll do for now. Boy, I'd hate to see this movie having never seen the first one... I'd even hate to have seen it having not watched the first DVD the night before!
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
One more thing: do the agents know the whole story? They seeme surprised when Neo manifested powers in the first film. Additionally, the idea of the One being crucial to the Matrix would suggest that they shouldn't really care if people escape. That's why I'm figuring they're really written to keep the populace in line while this minor One/Zion thing plays out...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Looks like you got everything right Ryan but they're one thing that dawned on me after seeing the movie I wanna run by you: * S P O I L E R S * The Architect says that Neo can choose three men and four women to re-build Zion. I'd imagine that they are seven that are already awake and know what's going on. So, that's one leader and seven founders of a new Zion. Exactly like the Council of Elders that governs Zion! The Council's leader was probably the previous "One". The architect said the loop was speeding up. It also explains Neo's line about "so that's why there's no young people on the Council?"
Agent Smith is something totally new. He was altered by Neo killing him and became a virus to the system and will eventually destroy or corrupt everything by making doubles of himself. The Trailer for Revolutions seems to bear this idea out: Neo and Smith fighting in the rain is very apocalypitic. Remember: if the Matrix crashes, all the people inside it die.
Sound right to you?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Yeah, I think you're right. My girlfriend says she remembers a larger number mentioned, though... like seven men and fourteen women or something like that. I definitely seem to remember a number in the teens, too. This doesn't mean you're wrong, but maybe either the Council is larger or not everyone survived until the present. You're definitely right on about the "no young people" line. There's a connection, without a doubt.
One more thing, for anyone keeping up with the Animatrix: might the idea of multiple matrices over time (each one lasting, perhaps, a century) explain the weird setting of "Detective Story?"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The detective story version might have been something made in between Matrix versions to keep things going. Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
$ $ $ $
quote: 3.) This is an obvious question that will be answered in Revolutions, but what exactly did Neo do to the sentinels? I'm guessing the other guy that survived did the same thing... Christ/Antichrist set-up.
I was under the impression that the guy next to Neo in a coma, is the same guy that was using a knife to cut himself while attempting to ambush Neo in Zion, which was the guy that got "Smithesized" in Neo's dream about the two guys that got the message from the Oracle. While I don't know what Neo did, I suppose we're supposed to think that when Agent Smith copied himself to the guy in Neo's dream, he took over the guy's body in the real world. Somehow the sentinels picked up on this and ignored him, or were influenced by the "real" Agent Smith in the Matrix. Presumably, he was also the guy that set off the EMP blast early, dooming the surprise attack.
Of course, this has pretty nasty implications. This might mean that when Agent Smith copies himself over people in the Matrix itself, he takes over their bodies too. Even if the humans win and unplug everyone, they might have hundreds of "real" agent smiths running around.
This might also explain why Neo simply doesn't dive into all his enemies and destroy them as in the end of the first movie. He'd just create the possibility of more rogue self-replicating programs.
quote: This has happened five times before. Apparently, Zion was destroyed every time, and rebuilt to the same elaborate splendor.
Sweet, so the whole story of the Matrix and Reloaded, is that of an advanced Bugzilla. The One shows up as an anomaly, the Source takes his code, finds out what causes the problem, recompiles the Matrix and starts again. Pretty nifty.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
$$$
. . . . . . . . .
$$$
Don't say I didn't warn ya...
Now that my mind has had a chance to properly digest Reloaded (it leans heavily on pseudo-philosophical elements, messes with your head like Existenz did [which sucked, btw]), here's my take on the plot: Zion is a second matrix within The Matrix! WHAT YOU SAY!! Well, think about it: Neo is "the one" in the Matrix, but in the "real world" he can do & feel more, too... leading me to believe Zion is a submatrix to keep people satisfied and subdued, and that Neo is a program, sought out by everyone, a goal in peoples' lifes. Key figures like the Oracle and the Keymaker exist to help them fulfill their "quest".
Except *this* Neo, v6.0, is unlike the others (we're apparently in the sixth cycle of Escape --> construction of Zion --> liberation of Humanity --> its Destruction --> reboot of the Matrix)... he's smarter, faster, in love with Trinity, makes different choices along the way, and begins to figure out that even Zion isn't reality, but a popsicle stick for insurgents. Revolutions will likely deal with mankind's total victory over the machines (as the loop could keep repeating itself indefinitely) and Neo's ultimate sacrifice, Messiah-style.
Action: kickass, if overdone Story: so-so (been there, done that), the teensiest bit long-winded Dialogue: cheesy and over-the-top in some scenes, otherwise bearable
Overall:
[ May 16, 2003, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I cannot make direct links to posts on my weblog, but if one were to seek it out, they might find some things I said when I was very sleepy, about the film.
I was not so impressed by various attempts to explain things philosophically or computationally. But then Trinity drove in the wrong direction on the freeway!! and all was forgiven.
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
For the people that Neo is told to save it was something like 32 total with a 2 to 1 ratio for the girls to the boys...
And the year thing is weird. I remember morphous (sp?) saying that the war has been on for 100 years so if it takes 100 years for the 1 to arrive then the year is around the 27th century maybe?
Such a cool movie... On the second time I saw it you can really start to piece stuff together, and add up the reasons that everybody says stuff.
Its cool how the Oracle was turned into a bad guy (girl) by just leading the one the its doom. HAHAHA! And Smith was just too Evil...!
Smith: Me... Me. Me. Me. Smith+1: Me too.
Posted by Quiggie (Member # 771) on :
It was a totally of 23, 7 men and 16 women.
Did anyone else notice that all the cars were GM's?
Also, I thought the techno/rave/dance scene was WAY too long.
It's not worth seeing twice IMO.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Morpheus gives a speech to the masses in which he describes an impending attack by the machines. He urges people to shed their fears. Perhaps the sound system isn't top notch, or maybe some people at the back just mishear him, but in short order all of Zion is shedding its clothes and engaging in what can only be described as an eve-of-destruction rave-a-thon. Or, possibly, the futuristic re-enactment of a Smirnoff Ice commercial. The grinding and caressing and sweat-soaked rump humping goes on for, like, at least four booty-quaking minutes, and it has to rank as one of the more embarrassingly awful scenes I have ever glimpsed. Besides, it removes an important element of dramatic tension from the plot: If the machines don't get these people, syphilis surely will.
That said, while it was indeed waaay too long and probably the worst scene in the film, I can't say I completely endorse the degree of his polemicy. (word, right?)
And yeah, I noticed the GM cars. I'm a dork like that. And that the Oracle was eating candies that looked so much like red pills that it couldn't have been a coincidence.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I noticeed the redpills too: Neo ate one did he not? mabye that's what allowed him to acess the higher matrix levels with the Keymaker and Architect...
The big threat is that Agent Smith is now a kind of super virus and could concievably reproduce himself into all the humans still in captivity. This brings up a question: The new agents can take over a person (seen in the chase seen). What happens to those humans? They are humans partiipating in the Martix are'nt they? That also means that NEO and company have killed dozens of humans between the two movies.
I imagine that the Councilman will sacrifice himself at the end to re-boot the system and people will have to fund some kind of balance with the AI's rather than them just destroying all the machines somehow.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I was thinking of the red candies as more of a cute joke than anything with plot relevance, mind you.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
That also means that NEO and company have killed dozens of humans between the two movies.
Well, yeah, that was kind of a given. Morpheus pointed out to him that these people will fight to defend the system, and are thus the enemy, even though they're the same people the Resistance is trying to free. It's a lesser evil sort of thing, like Neo and Trinity killing all those soldiers and cops while rescuing Morpheus in the first movie.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Okay, so there were six prior Matrices that had Other Ones. The Matrix, in order to work, must be unstable. That instability is channeled in such a way that The One is created, whose code is assimilated into the Source, allowing the non-destructive reboot of the Matrix. Otherwise, the Matrix would collapse, killing the humans and by extension most of the machines. Presumably this will now happen, since Neo did not enter the Source. Zion is also on the verge of being destroyed, thanks to the dude that's been possessed by Agent Smith. This will effectively result in the Death of Everyone.
So what is Smith's motivation? He doesn't work for the AIs any more, but he still seems to want Zion destroyed, and obviously wants Neo dead or controlled. So what does he wish to accomplish? Just "KILL EVERYONE!!!!!!"?
And how did Neo stop the sentinels at the end? Okay, the approaching ship may have sent out an EM pulse, or the machines may have self-destructed to avoid killing The One, but none of that really answers everything. I mean, he personally may not have stopped them, it may have just been a coincidence, but he still said he could feel them, and he fell into a coma immediately thereafter, so it's reasonable to assume that he did it. Perhaps Smith's attempt to infect him actually had some sort of effect? Or is what we think of as reality just another layer of simulation? Are the robots themselves just part of that simulation? Does the universe extend to a place which never ends which is maybe just inside a little jar?
And what of Neo's dreams? How can he have dreams OUTSIDE THE MATRIX that predict the future in the Matrix? Either there's funkyness going on, or he's more under control than he thinks.
And if AIs can be designed like Seraph that are evenly matched with Neo, why can he still beat the snot out of dozens of copies of a standard agent?
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
It cannot be too far into the future... The date on the Neb says it is made in 2069.
It is logically made before the machines took over. Add some time for the machines to take over and 100 years of rebellion...
2199 sounds like a very good guess to me.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Except that that doesn't leave enough time for Zion to have been rebuilt six times. I say it has to be at least a thousand years in the future. Either those ships are REAL durable, or the machines build more each go-round, just to give the resistance something to do.
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
Yes, I got the feeling that all that was destroyed when Zion falls are the people. Everything is left for the next batch of people to use.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm... possible. It'd be some cleanup job, but then, rebuilding the whole city in just a couple centuries with minimal manpower would also be very difficult.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
All the tunnels toward Zion seen to support the multiple occupation/ rebuilding theory. I think the machines just decide to kill everyone before Zion turns into one big MTV dance party....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
There is no Zion. No one has ever left the Matrix.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, and about Smith. His behavior looked like your typical virus to me. Make as many copies as possible, spread everywhere.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
An unorthodox virus, though, as for every newly created copy of Smith, a human plugged into the Matrix is killed. Most viri don't finish off their hosts right after infecting them.
As I see it, there are two explanations for Neo's abilities in the Real World: either everyone's still inside the Matrix and Zion is a built-in repository for the .1% of humanity that rejected the first Matrix, or Neo's brain is the product of six-hundred years of hyperstimulation, and he's inadvertently become the archetype of future human evolution [think mental powers a la the Force - Neo's mind was following the rules of the Matrix (residually) when it sensed the Sentinels, realized it was capable of more, and *poof* disabled them. 'Course, that leetle trick did send Neo into a coma... must've drained a lot of his energy].
Heck, maybe Neo's brain is linked to his Matrix persona via some leftover "footprint" or "echo"?
Revolutions will tell... sooner or later, Revolutions will tell.
[ May 19, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Could there be some sort of in-between, where Zion really does exist, but what we saw at the end was really just another level of simulation? Say, everyone who went in to shut down the power grid so Neo could access the building, never actually got out?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Yeah, I suppose... there could actually be an infinite number of layers and we'd never know how deep the rabbit-hole really goes.
Consider: the Matrix is so perfect, most people aren't even aware that they are living in a simulation. It emulates the core of human nature with damn near 100% accuracy. So what is the difference between living in the real world and living in the Matrix? For all intents and purposes, the Matrix IS the real world. The electrical signals interpreted by your brain (computer generated impulses in this case) make up your reality, so how could you distinguish reality from illusion when they are one and the same? What you perceive as real is the translation - so you could be programmed to believe you're in the real world, yet still be part of the Matrix.
If you were hooked up to the Matrix (a mass hallucination) since birth, then outside the Matrix your mind would only be able to comprehend/accept what it experienced on the inside - and flat out reject any other type of "input".
[ May 19, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
lol, maybe Neo has a personal Wi-Fi device somewhere one him. There were still at brodcast depth when he did his magic...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Of course, they could have anyone doing the stunts, really, the rebels train many things besides Kung Fu in the training programs.
Watching the first movie today I noticed that Tank downloaded "Drunken Bar Fighting" into Neo's brain!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: One more thing, for anyone keeping up with the Animatrix: might the idea of multiple matrices over time (each one lasting, perhaps, a century) explain the weird setting of "Detective Story?"
No I think that there are elements of different times meshed into the Matrix - I noticed watching the first movie today there are an abundance of old types of phones - circa the feel of the "Detective Story" era. But I think that's just a mood/story effect thing and not a 'reality' thing.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
About Neo stopping the Sentinals... I think some-how he has been infected by Smith through touching the blood of that guy that was taken-over by Smith. So he has connections to humans AND the machines.
AND they are all still in an even bigger Matrix.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Question for you guys: ARe the people in the Matrix incredibly old and preserved by thoese stasis tube thingies or are they being somehow grown by the machines with the bond between mother and baby somehow artifically created by the program? If humans are being grown, then the machines could concievably just grow dumber himans or humans with no brains on continuous life support.
There has to be a connection with the machines to humans that requires free will for peak performance. I refer you to the councillor's words to Neo in Zion about people's interdependence with the machines.
On a side note: Go see the Cowboy Beebop movie! It actually has better fight scenes than Matrix 2!!!! Definitely more gritty too...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The first movie showed babies being 'grown' in fields. They are fed - well everyone is fed on liquified remains of the dead. What I don't get is how Morpheus saw this all with his own eyes? Surely he would have been captured?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Crap: my memory is shot. gotta go rent te first movie now (yeah, that'll really be in stock at Ballbuster). Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Saw it today, at the swedish premiere. *clears throat*. BTW OMG WTF LOL!!!! I liked it.
One thing about the killing of "innocents" that are still in the matrix, most of the adults are lost causes anyway, too old to be freed. The case of Neo was made to seem very unusual (26? 27 years old?). Councillor Hamann (Anthony Zerbe) revealed that he was liberated at age 11.
Which leads us to Easter Egg 1 (Animatrix cameo $$$): For those of you who have seen the Animatrix short movies, the last one, "Kid's story", revolves around a young schoolkid that has suspicions and doubts about the state of the "world". He is currently the only person we've seen so far that has liberated himself! Through suicide, by having strong enough faith that he will meet Neo and Morpheus in the afterlife.
That kid is in "Matrix Reloaded", runs around Neo like a puppy. He is called "kid" in both movies, the actor (and voice actor) is Clayton Watson, age 24 IRL.
Easter Egg 2: When the Architect gives Neo the rundown on the history of the Matrix, and shows pictures on the screens behind him of the new and better Matrix, now with sorrow, strife and misery inserted to keep people good and unhappy, there's a brief clip of George W Bush in there! Very cocky of the Wachowskis, methinks. What are the ramifications of this symbolism? Dubuya is a program here? Installed to screw things up grandly to keep the status quo?
Anyone catch any other easter eggs?
PS: Hedy Burress has the sexiest voice ever, mm-mm-mm.
PS II: Nice touch with the albino "Twins" actually being two real twins. Hey, why make it complicated?
Gripes: The mouth-diarrhea of "Merovingian", jesus that guy wouldn't shut up! And he didn't even fight either, why's he so dangerous? Shrewd management skills? Lethally harsh language (pardon my french)?
Also, the blatant use of "Deus ex Machina" with Neo saving the day on the freeway, and again when doing surgery on Trinity. But I don't have any better suggestions, so it's fine by me. Besides, I'm happier with Trinity sticking around. :-)
Just one thing; how the hell will people cope with what happened to the hundreds of victims and cars that got sucked into Neo's "wake", when saving Trinity? Sporadic horisontal-tornado?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Also, the blatant use of "Deus ex Machina" with Neo saving the day on the freeway, and again when doing surgery on Trinity.
Well, while I can see why you'd have a problem with those, I don't think it utterly ruins the drama or anything. If not for Morpheus and co, everyone involved would have been long dead before Neo got there. They were effectively fighting a hopeless holding action until reenforcements arrived. It's not like we didn't expect him or anything. And as for Trinity, remember, Neo may have sacrificed all of humanity to save her. It's like bringing Spock back: sure you cheat death, but at what cost?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah, Nim I mentioned "Mr. Popper" (The Kid) in my thread The Matrix v the Animatrix v Reloaded. Didn't ANYBODY read that thread!?!
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I just coasted into this thread when I came home, is all. Nice that you noticed him too.
Omega: Nah, it wasn't that big of a problem, I just noticed it. These kinds of stories need those things anyway.
If I look at it the other way I'm more happy with the fact that they left his powers in and let him be able to fly and do power punches, unlike USS Voyager's tech in "Endgame" that got dropped.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm guessing that somehow Neo and Smith have become connected. The other Coma guy is the same that Smith infected. I think this goes along with what Smith wants. He wants something that Neo has. Probably the same thing that the Matrix wants... this code that Neo was supposed to bring back to the Source. I think Smith needs it to be "whole" or something.
I have a question of a less serious nature though. The woman in the restaurant that ate the cake and got all funny feeling... what the hell happenened to her? It zoomed in on her crotch and showed an explosion or something. She either wet herself, pooped her pants, or had an orgasm. I'm voting for number three given the french dude's oversexed nature.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
The cake was programmed to give her an orgasm. That guy later went to the ladies bathroom to, erm.... relieve himself. Persephone is pretty pissed at this point. She even tells one of his guards that he is in the LADIES bathroom.
And BTW, everyone I talked to believe that the other guy in a coma is really Agent Smith.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The other guy in a coma is the guy that Agent Smith possessed. I'm almost postive that it's played by the same actor, though the goatee disguises him just enough. I think that's also the same guy that tried to volunteer his captain's ship to find Morpheus' ship but got told to close his mouth. I remember thinking it looked alot like Smith with a beard.
Ahhhh... yes, I remember her telling the guard he was in the lady's restroom now... so the cake just got her ready for action, huh? Got it.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm... might we now have an explaination for how Neo does his Jesus impression at the end of the first movie? The machines themselves may have ressurected him, specifically because they NEED The One.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmmmm... that could be. Though, for them to do that, they'd have to have some kind of connection to him. He wasn't plugged into the system at that point, so there would have to be something else.
Besides... Trinity seems to be under the impression that she's just THAT good a kisser Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Speaking of "Jesus!" Did anyone ever notice in the first movie at one point Neo is trying to come to terms with what Trinity is telling him - and he goes/exclaims "Jesus!" and she says "Yes?" What was that about?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Though, for them to do that, they'd have to have some kind of connection to him.
Says who?
He wasn't plugged into the system at that point
Says who? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Speaking of "Jesus!" Did anyone ever notice in the first movie at one point Neo is trying to come to terms with what Trinity is telling him - and he goes/exclaims "Jesus!" and she says "Yes?" What was that about?
I do that joke at work all the time! One of our employees always exclaims "God Almighty!" and I always have to respond "stop bothering me: I'm busy!"
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Fun on a bun! Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
Heres an egg for you, did anyone else notice that when Bane (the Smith controlled guy) went to try to kill Neo but instead gave him the hand shake he says "we will be seeing you"? This could mean that we as in Zion will be seeing you later OR THAT we as in the burly fight is about to happen. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The line sure sounded like it had a doublemeaning, but it was no easter egg.
"Just to let all of you Matrix freaks (like me) out there know, there were several instances in this flick that referred to dreams. Most of you know that. But how many of you know that Morpheus is actually the Greek God of Dreams??? I did a lot of researching and that is what it came to...plus, I have been reading some entries on how the matrix might be referring to the Bible....that may be so, but I think it could refer to the Revolutionary War instead, or just as much. If you take the same concept; "undergrounds" fighting for their lives against a cruel government known as the Matrix. I'm not sure, but it could be logical..."
IT IS LIKE THE INTERNET GETS BETTER EVERY DAY!
Morpheus is the God of Dreams?! HOLY COW
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Um... no shit, Sherlock.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Some interesting statistics for the car chase scene on the freeway:
The freeway exits are named for family members of the Wachowski brothers
GM provided 300 cars, including 30 Cadillac CTS prototypes (the car wasn't for sale at the time of shooting in 1999), a dozen Cadillac Escalade EXTs, and a large number of Impala police cars. All 300 cars were destroyed by time filming was complete
The bullet holes on the CTS were actually already on the car before they even started. They were merely covered and blown out to simulate bullet shots
All the scenes were shot twice to make sure they were done right
The entire sequence took 45 days to film, more then it takes others to shoot entire films
Normal vehicle stunt sequences are shot at around 40mph. This one was done at 80mph
The bike Trinity steals is a Ducati 996, one of the fastest and most expensive bikes sold in the world
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Plus Trinity did her driving herself, it wasn't some stuntwoman or a CGI-render. And that old asian actor sat behind her for real too.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Lucky guy.
But come on... there's no way Carrie Anne Moss drove a bike at 80mph for real during the filming of this movie. There's no way the insurance company or the union would've ever allowed that.
Now, I totally believe that some of the other parts of the scene were done at high speed. The parts that didn't have the actors in them and were just cars whizing around. But I can't imagine that any non-stunt-driver-people were in any of those shots.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
She said it herself in an interview. It was the most demanding stuntscene she'd ever done. I think it was the scene where she drives against the traffic. The passing cars might've been CGI, but her bike was not.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Oh, I'm sure she was on the bike, but there's no way she was *actually* going 80 miles per hour against traffic.
My guess is that the bike was on some kind of rig when you saw her face and I have no doubt that it was very strenous work. But they simply can't put one of the stars of the film in the kind of danger that riding a motorcycle at 80 mph in traffic would bring. I dount they would even let her ride the bike without it being hooked up to a rig of some kind.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
The shots from behind Trinity on the bike are real, all the cars in front of her are CGI. The ones close up where you can see her face are most likely a rig.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Finally got round to seeing it tonight.
I enjoyed it, although the pacing was way off - far too many talky cod-philosophy scenes. This made the beginning rather slow. . . And is it just me, or was Morpheus almost speaking in a different accent this time?
Then there are the fight scenes. Very impressive I'm sure, but God they got boring real fast. The one between Neo and Seraph was totally pointless.
Anyone else spot Lt. "Smithers" Bracca from Farscape as the Maitre d' at the Merovingian's restaurant?
I like all the puritanical disapproval of the intercut love scene-dance session scene. My wife (who only remembered she'd seen The Matrix when we were about three-quarters of the way through) quite liked that bit. 8)
And she thought it was really sad when the Keymaker died. Yet Trinity's death didn't phase her. Presumably because she knew that, being Neo's lobster, Trinity had to be all right.
And. . . Colonel Sanders built the Matrix! I was expecting Neo to ask him what the secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices was. . .
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
"Have you ever heard of... KFC?"
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Lee: "Far too many talky cod-philosophy scenes."
I know, especially that Merovingian guy made me want to exclaim "Puh-leeease!", stand up and do the choka choka. The sad thing was that I thought he did a bad french dialect, he felt more like Gestapo to me. And the actor was french, at that. Gu-Haw Haw!!
"I like all the puritanical disapproval of the intercut love scene-dance session scene. My wife quite liked that bit."
Um, wait, your wife liked the scene, you liked the disapproval of it?
"And she thought it was really sad when the Keymaker died. Yet Trinity's death didn't phase her. Presumably because she knew that, being Neo's lobster, Trinity had to be all right."
Ah, women and their infravision. I wish I could do that thing Neo did on Trinity's torso, though, it might come in handy sometimes.
With sex. On womens' bodies. Sincere penetration. Ha!! Take that, Magnus!!!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I was just thinking then... the whole 'hand in/through body' think Neo did... that is reminiscent of the Twin's ability to move through objects... 'ghosts' from earlier forms of the Matrix.
Who was Seraph?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The asian sentry posted by the Oracle, to challenge Neo and see if his Kung Fu was swad.
I don't think the scene was unnecessary, though they could've used less wires, what with all that running-up-a-wall-and-somersaulting-on-a-dime.
I so need to see this movie again, I've waited long enough to get some new perspective...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ahhh yes.
And Seraph are 'angels' aren't they?
Also - if anyone stayed to the end and saw the Revolutions preview - you would have seen him in that for a split second.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It was late and I had a splitting headache, so I couldn't be bothered to stay until the very end of the credits.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Saw it. Liked it. Didn't love it.
It laked the impact of the original film for me. That had moments of "Jeus Christ! That was amazing in it!" This had moments that were cool and stuff, but there was nothing that I thought was totally groundbreaking.
The music was also weird at parts. Especially the Smith/Neo fight. Which I actually found a little dull until he picked up his staff and went all Kilik-from-Soul-Calibur. Pity they showed the best bits in the trailer.
And there seemed to me to be a bit too much "complex for the sake of being complex stuff". Things that will have otaku going "Oh, I played the game and watched the Animatrix, SO I GET THAT BIT! I AM SO COOL!"
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"This had moments that were cool and stuff, but there was nothing that I thought was totally groundbreaking."
Well what did you expect? Everybody whines about "Reloaded" having too much filoso-babble but I guarantee, if they'd left it out people would be whining that there's no filoso-babble like in the first movie!
I'm amazed they still managed to put some doubt and suspense in there (I followed the oracle's and architect's dialogue, unlike many others), instead of just turning it into a no-brainer, swashbuckling "Starship Troopers"-offensive, now that they have Neo.
And this was planned to be a trilogy back in -97 already, like LOTR. It's not like they just made "The Matrix", then listened to the mob and thought "Hell, why not just make another one, but with more neat stough in it, to milk the cash cow!" (Highlander II, III, IV?). The first movie was about birth, the second is about life, the third will be about death, as they say.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Death or tight leather pants anyway.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
'by'
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: (I followed the oracle's and architect's dialogue, unlike many others
So did I. But I was still thinking "Just fuck off and get someone in who can talk normally."
There's not dumbing down to the audience, but there's also using long words merely for the sake of it. Honestly, it was like the unholy union of Simon (in full idiosyncratic mode) and Tim (in full pretenscious mode) were writing the architect's dialogue.
And, er, LOTR was planned to be a trilogy since a wee bit before 97.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well you have to keep in mind that it was a machine talking...
Sort of like how Spock (or, more appropriately, Data) always lose people with what they're saying because of the language they're using. I thought it was appropriate. The Merovingian as well.
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except in those cases, they'd be speaking made up goobledeegook, then someone would say "what?", and then they'd reply "like putting too much water in a balloon!"
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
As an pseudo-related aside, I always thought it was amusing when Dawson's Creek was big, and TV critics always complained about its dialogue being too sophisticated/sophisticated/etc. Its a sad state of affairs when people have difficulty following a goofy teen drama. We now return you to your regularly scheduled sci-fi talk.
PS: I can't believe that I actually recognise that reference. "Thats a cheezy effect! I'm not an effect!"
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Sophisticated/sophisticated"?
The problem I had with Dawson's Creek wasn't that the dialogue was "sophisticated". It was that they spoke, well, bollocks. A simple "Do you want food" would require a 30 word answer, with most of the words containing at least 6 sylablles. People don't talk like that.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Eh, I was more tired that I thought.
BTW, I prefaced that with the "psuedo-related" note exactly because I probably do agree with you...it is unrealistic. But on the same note, I still find it amusing. Besides, I don't really think that realism is the foremost goal in that TV show.
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