OK this to begin with doesn't have any REAL spoilers but read any further posts at your own peril if you haven't seen The Matrix, The Animatrix or The Matrix: Reloaded.
I just have one little thing to wonder... some of the things in the matrix - symbolism - what are the black crows supposed to represent - I noticed them in the Matrix, Animatrix and Reloaded. Quite predominant. The Oracle even mentions them in the courtyard scene.
Another one from the courtyard scene - the newspaper being blown along - that is also in all three movies I think - or at least in the Animatrix and Reloaded (and maybe even twice in Reloaded).
Also the traffic lights - yes this is getting a bit David Lynch - but I noticed in the Animatrix story with the girl and the 'haunted house' (presence of a glitch/older program) that there was a lot with the empty streets and the traffic lights/pedestrian crossing lights.
Of course there is what was mentioned in the other thread - with the whole Red Pill and the Oracle with the lollies. Infact - what is it with her and food? Remember she kept Neo waiting because she was baking cookies. And what was that supposed to mean that he'd "feel alright after eating one of her cookies" in the first movie? She put Marijuana in them?? Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
In the movie 'The Crow' a crow is related to death.
In the Matrix it seems to be the bearer of bad news.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they're Exiled programs or the remains thereof...a kind of machine afterlife.
I've been thinking about the confrontation with the Architect: The Architect rambles on about "she" this that that and Neo guesses "The Oracle". The Architect says "please" in a semi disgusted tone....mabye he was'nt refering to the Oracle as the program in question after all... mabye he meant Trinity. after all, everything Neo has done so far has been influenced by his love/attachment to Trinity. What if she's been manipulating him as part of the "big picture" and Neo's taking the left door avoided a chance for the humans to access the scourse and gain freedom as per the prophesy? Trinity would'nt even have to know she was part of the design, just lke Neo didint....and Neo only had his Matrix dreams while sleeping right next to her...
I know this sounds like a "magic bullet" theory but it sure would change he outlook of the next movie would'nt it. Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm. That... would explain a lot. Quite a bit, really. Of course, it either assumes that the "Real World" is another simulation, or that Trinity is a human body being controlled by another computer program ala Agent Smith.
I've wondered about that: if the Architect wasn't referring to the Oracle, then who? Persephone (sp) is the only other "female" AI I can think of thus far.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The "architect" was scoffing at the grandiose name Neo was giving her, not her existence per se. And the birds were there because of John Woo.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
He's more of a pigeon fan, I believe. :-)
Didn't "The Matrix" establish that the original Architect, the one with divine powers like Neo, was the first to rebel and the one to teach the first batch of born-agains how to fight the machines? He seems pretty evil to me, not at all like Morpheus laid out in "The Matrix". Although Morphie's street cred took a bit of a dive in Act IV, no?
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
Morpheus also said the Architect had died and that The One would be his new incarnation. I probably shouldn't ask, nevermind. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: And the birds were there because of John Woo.
Or was John Woo there because of the birds?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Didn't "The Matrix" establish that the original Architect, the one with divine powers like Neo, was the first to rebel and the one to teach the first batch of born-agains how to fight the machines?
No. "There was a man born inside the Matrix..." Not the Architect. Presumably he was referring to what we now believe is the previous One.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Here's the way I see it...
Reloaded is a metaphor for the cycles of existence as believed in Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. In these religions, life, death, and rebirth are seen as forming a repetitive, tedious chain that binds all life. Humans, animals, gods, demons, ghosts, they all die, and are reborn. There is nothing permenant about one's position in the order of things, except that one will always have a position, and that position will not last forever. The goal of one then should be to seek enlightment in order to break out of that cycle and escape to an existence beyond that of the flesh, even that of gods, ghosts, or demons.
So, Neo represents both the humanity's and the AI's choice in the future of their existence. There has been other 'The One' before, and they all chose to continue the cycle of dead and rebirth. The AIs and their captive humans, like gods and demons, has their existence dragged out for so long that they never really seem to die, but they are also 'stuck' being alive, for all the good and bad that does them. Zion, like an individual person, dies, but is always reborn again, only to experience essentially the same existence as before, its triumphs and defeats, only to die and be reborn again.
When Neo was given the chose of the two doors by the Architect, he was given an opportunity to break that cycle of death and rebirth for all sides. To have followed the Architect's direction would have meant another cycle of death and rebirth. To have chosen the other door means escape from that endless chain, into an existence unlike any before.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: [QB] Here's the way I see it...
. In these religions, life, death, and rebirth are seen as forming a repetitive, tedious chain that binds all life.
Like the Star Wars movies! ...and the A.I.'s are the only witnesses to it all.
That explains why agent Smith is so angry: he used to be C-3P0! ...and Neo's blank, vacant expresion in the Matrix is the ultimate evolution of Hayden Christensen's stilted acting! It's all so clear to me now....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK my other metaphors I noticed - the wind blowing the newspaper, the focus on traffic/crossing lights -- what about them. They or each of them are in the Matrix, the Animatrix and Reloaded. And again - what is it with the Oracle and food? Again maybe it's the Matrix producers/directors trying to be David Lynch etc. "That's Damn fine cherry pie".
Also
About Hayden Christensen - if anyone complains about Keanu's acting abilities anymore - he's matured a lot - just see "The Gift". The crown has passed to Hayden Christensen. "It's all Obi-wan's fault!" Oh dear.
Also was it definately the "Architect" who was mentioned by Morpheus? I thought the first guy - had the abiltity to control anything he wanted in the matrix, and that he was human too.
quote:Morpheus also said the Architect had died and that The One would be his new incarnation. I probably shouldn't ask, nevermind.
So this was the previous 5th go around?
The videos behind Neo in the Architect's room - show all of the other times around Neo had been there? Or was it supposed to be different people each time? This leads me to think that they are all still in an even bigger program.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Possibly. However, I just assumed something simpler. From a computer point of view, it was probably trying to predict how Neo would react in an effort to gain the upper hand. Thus, the initial prediction to the "revelation" was rather difficult, each screen showed something different. But later, he goes on to say that denial is an extrememly predictable emotion...at the same time, pretty much all of the screens say "bullshit" For me, this just foreshadows the exchange at the end, when the Architect is totally unsurprised by Neo's new choice (v.s all the previous cycles)...he's forseen it, through mathemtaical prediction...and he's already arranged a contingency plan presumably.
quote: ...and the A.I.'s are the only witnesses to it all.
Interestingly, this seems to be true. The Nevogonim or whatever is aware of it and has confronted Neo's predecessors. Agent Smith also says that its all going as it has before.....but "not exactly". I guess only the humans are in the dark about all of this.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Also was it definately the "Architect" who was mentioned by Morpheus? I thought the first guy - had the abiltity to control anything he wanted in the matrix, and that he was human too.
I already answered that, I thought. Did I miss something?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes, sorry Omega... maybe you were just feling the effects of an extended reintegration of your pattern onto a transporter pad!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
OK... I just finally saw this last night. I was fairly blown away and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.
I agree that the Oracle is the "mother" that the architect was speaking of and that he merely scoffed at the title Neo gave her. It would seem that she is there giving her "guidance" for the sole purpose of identifying the current incarnation of The One and eventually bringing him back to the Source.
I see an extremely larger metaphor going on here that addresses the very nature of belief. Morpheus has, what amounts to a religion in his belief in the Prophecy and The One. His faith is absolute, but he finds out that everything he has ever believed has been a lie. In the first movie, he was the dispenser of truth, now he has to swallow it.
So one of the questions the movie asks is, "What if everything you believe about your existance one day proved to be wrong? What would you do?"
In the movie, the Architect is quite obviously supposed to represent God (white beard and suit and all). All the myriad exiled and obsolete programs inhabiting the Matrix seem to represent lesser Gods or Demons as has been mentioned before. Some of these programs even seem to have henchmen programs working for them like the guys that Neo fought in the mansion and the Vampires that Persephone blows away.
It's certainly a more complicated set up than we're lead to believe in the first film and it must be set much, much, farther in the future than Morpheus believes if Zion has gone through six 100 year incarnations.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
In the movie, the Architect is quite obviously supposed to represent God (white beard and suit and all).
If I recall my gnosticism, an apparent source of inspiration for the writers, Satan created the world to trap humanity. Not all villans dress in black, especially in these movies. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"Like the Star Wars movies!"
Well, yeah, Lucas's inspiration for the Force et all is deeply rooted in Eastern mysticism and Buddhist philosophies, as are many of the Wachowski's themes.
So one of the questions the movie asks is, "What if everything you believe about your existance one day proved to be wrong? What would you do?"
Your world would collapse... literally (for Neo) AND figuratively (for Morpheus).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"the Vampires that Persephone blows away"
Werewolves, it would seem. Supposedly, Persephone is a vampire herself, though I think that might be something the actress said somewhere that didn't actually show up in the film.
"Satan created the world to trap humanity"
The Demiurge, which isn't quite the same thing. There were as many gnosticisms as there are other Christian sects, but I don't believe most held that the world was created specifically as a trap. It was, in the traditions I can recall, either a side effect of the bifurcation of the One True God, or a twisted attempt at mimicry on the part of the Demiurge. Humans do happen to be trapped in it, but it wasn't created out of the hope of doing so.
The Empire never fell.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: In the movie, the Architect is quite obviously supposed to represent God (white beard and suit and all).
Actually, I thought he looked like Robert E. Lee...
quote: Supposedly, Persephone is a vampire herself, though I think that might be something the actress said somewhere that didn't actually show up in the film.
I think she said something along the lines of her being able to remove/sample people's emotions, which is what (I think) was intended with her insistance that Neo kiss her like she was Trinity; she wanted to feel love again. Reminds me of the Polymorph from Red Dwarf, actually. Only with less saliva.
quote: It's certainly a more complicated set up than we're lead to believe in the first film and it must be set much, much, farther in the future than Morpheus believes if Zion has gone through six 100 year incarnations.
Unless... the Architect was lying to Neo to try and get him to do the 'wrong' thing. Also- if the machines are defeated what does humanity do then? Can Earth be restored or are they gonna have to live underground for ever more. Or emigrate to Mars Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Of course, Neo probably would have saved Trinity anyway, and screw humanity... again.
As for what happens if we beat the machines, really, anything we do at this point is a phyrric victory. Our only real option is to somehow convince the machines to be our partners instead of our enemies. Or to realize that the whole thing's a simulation. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I don't know about phyrric, they have what seems to be a solid base in Zion. Just expand as the population grows, wait a couple of generations for the earth to start healing itself and just improvise from there.
The whole earth can't be burnt to a cinder, just the capital cities and such.
About Neo's choice, I was led to believe that this Neo did something different, managed to both have the cake and eat it, to coin a phrase involving food. The other Ones sacrificed their personal wishes for the good of the many and did what they thought was expected of them. Because that's what Neo's been doing since he was told he was "The One". Trying to live up to the expectations. I think this time he went with his gut-feeling.
I thought the henchman Persephone shot was a vampire too. Shirley there was no visual evidence to suggest werevoles?
I feel for Keanu, I really do. Losing your baby like that and then your mate, however "estranged" they were. I'm amazed he can keep the pace that he does.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
She shot him with a silver bullet. Silver bullets kill Werewolves. Vampires are mainly killed by wooden stakes.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Did you see any werewolves in "Blade"?
He had silver stakes, silver bullets, even a silver/titanium sword (makes for a crappy blade, but nonetheless).
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I've never seen Blade. I'm going on actual folklore here.
I find it hard to believe that the writers intended the "silver bullets" reference to mean they were anything other than werewolves.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Well they shared a good barber then. Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Werewolves are only wolfish and hairy when the moon is full. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Scratch that, I'll go for the obvious one.
Well there's no full moon now, so what's your excuse?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
A GSW or two from a shotgun at close range, and a vampire will croak like any mortal (unless the wrong side of the d20 comes up... curses!).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
As long as we're into geeky game refrences: there's the possibility that the central characters are the Matrix's representations of real world game players....that sure would make for a shitty ending though: fade in to five online players living in their mom's basements and downloading Buffy pics all day...((shudder!))
I really think the idea of the co-dependency between humans and the machines was no mistake. In the end they'll have to resolve things that way: humans have no real inkling how to run things as a rule and due to the eternal 1999(ish) world that the Matrix fosters, no one has ever been trained to the level of technology seen in the Animatrix. No machines = no survival.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Jason: "no one has ever been trained to the level of technology seen in the Animatrix."
They seem to grasp the technology needed to create hardware for use in the Matrix, and create their own programs (training and such). I think the hover-ships and Mecha-units are leftovers from the last stands of the humans, they probably have enough knowledge and tech to rebuild cities far superior to Sydney 1999.
There are a few other points in "Reloaded" I've been meaning to bring up, though.
If they grow foodstuffs and goodies in Zion, how come they don't get to take some food on their ships on missions? Not even for a real meal once a week? Cipher complained on having to eat the same goop every day. If there's one thing that's important for keeping morale in a crew, it's the food.
I hereby claim the provisions officer(s) of Zion to be responsible for the deaths of Apoc, Switch, Dozer and Cipher!!
In Reloaded, Neo should've taken all those religious thanksgiving gift snacks that he got and loaded them on the Neb, talk about waste of resources.
Second point, if they have a whole fleet of hover ships, a great dock with a well-tailored staff and council, how come they still have to fly around dressed in rags? Haven't they taught their crews basic sewing, stitching and mending? They did seem to have some decent party clothes for the Zion MTV Grind...
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Not to mention the fact that just about everything in the real world is filthy! Would you want to trust your life to equipment that's continually coated in grease and grime? To say nothing of sticking one of those probes in the back of your head. The city's supposed to have been in existence for a hundred years; you'd think somebody would have found a few spare minutes to break out a mop and a bucket.
As far as symbolism goes, there's the obvious Christian slant (Neo is Christ, Smith the Antichrist). Given that, (and his role in finding Neo), Morpheus should be real careful; remember what happened to John the Baptist!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
There is an 'episode' of the Animatrix where it has a group of humans and a lemur called Baby capturing sentinals and other robots and plugging them into their own version of the Matrix to get them to work in cooperation with the humans. "Matriculation" it's called. I don't know if it's one of the 3? you can only see at the movies/on the DVD - it's very good - if not a little confusing here and there.
I red something where "The Kid" that Popper kid from "A Kid's Story" Animatrix episode has a much bigger role in Matrix: Revolutions.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Another thing with that guy Smith 'copied himself into' and then escaped - why was he cutting his hand? He then shook Neo's hand... was this to pass Smith onto Neo? Is that why he could control/destroy the sentinals outside of the Matrix?
Would all the humans in the Matrix that have been 'copied' by Smith be - if removed/disconnected "Smith" in personality?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Another thing...
I was watching the DVD with Carrie-Ann and two of the crew-people (can't remember their names) but one of the guys said that the Brothers wanted the Matrix world too look very green and outside it very blue.
Also did anyone notice the scene where Neo is arrested by Smith and his is being viewed in the room before they come in on the many video monitors/screens. Those monitors looked IDENTICAL to the monitors/screens as seen in the Architect's room!!
Go have a look. Maybe he has been spying on Neo for a while - like Morpheus had been.
Andrew
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"why was he cutting his hand? He then shook Neo's hand... was this to pass Smith onto Neo? Is that why he could control/destroy the sentinals outside of the Matrix?"
I thought he was about to go all Klingon on Neo's ass to spread the infection, but doubtless it had some other significance...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
AndrewYarr: "Those monitors looked IDENTICAL to the monitors/screens as seen in the Architect's room"
I had that same thought when seeing "Reloaded".
And I wouldn't worry too much about those probes they stick in their heads, it probably just connects with some steel interface further in, not any flesh. They should put some plastic plug in there though, when they're not using it. Because, what if Neo gets a bit of candy wrap or satsuma peel in there, or even a little piece of nutshell (from those Buddhist gifts), must be a bitch to clean out.
Apparently the system is water resistant as the humans lie soaked in pods with it, and they must shower in Zion.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I sure hope they bathe in the Neb too! Neo and Trinity woulf be awful funky otherwise! Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I hereby claim the provisions officer(s) of Zion to be responsible for the deaths of Apoc, Switch, Dozer and Cipher!!
So what happened to Tank, anyhow?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
EDIT: I must get my brain in gear.
[ May 26, 2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Tank's dead, according to that one conversation.
Assuming that Smith found a way to actually put himself in that guy's brain, my impression was that he was cutting into his hand just to see what it felt like.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I think it was Dozer they talked about, in the Zion apartment. Tank is probably on sickleave.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, the real reason for his absence is an ugly contract dispute between the actor and the Wachamawhositkowskis.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Really?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
A friend brought up an interesting idea. Zion is another level of control, but what if it's not really real? What if the awakening and Zion are all just another program? How would you REALLY know if your no longer in the matrix? that would explain why characters can 'see' code so well, and how Neo generated that EM pulse...
With no frame of reference, there's no way to know what it's like, NOT being in the Matrix.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
A friend brought up an interesting idea. Zion is another level of control, but what if it's not really real? What if the awakening and Zion are all just another program?
*GASP*
How could nobody else have thought of this! Your friend has a truly amazing intellect.
I think it was Dozer they talked about, in the Zion apartment.
No, "I lost two brothers to that ship." Unless there was a third one, it's gotta be Tank.
Assuming that Smith found a way to actually put himself in that guy's brain, my impression was that he was cutting into his hand just to see what it felt like.
That was my impression as well. He did seem a bit... unstable regarding humans in the first movie. Imagine after that, becoming one.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Cutting yourself is'nt normal? Phht.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I did not hate this movie near as much as I had expected to. I mean it got REALLY pretentious at several points but the humor about Morpheus being nuts and a couple of other points kept it in check.
So, I had a stupid idea. That idea was that after the point that Neo enters the 'Core' or the 'Center' or the 'thingy what's in the middle of the important stuff' that he does not leave it. That at that point 'the Architect' is tricking him into believing he is outside The Matrix in order to learn more about his anomaly or whatever nefarious plan he has for Neo.
Also, because I have been drinking I wonder whether the machines (AIs, whatever) might not be aware of the humans simply as imperfect programs and perceive the 'real' world as artificially as we perceive the matrix. But I'm sort of drunk and while this seems clever now, someone is sure to burst my bubble when I get up to check the boards in the morning...
Also, the crow is the archetypical psychopomp, conveying souls from the world of the living to the world of the dead, etc.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"That at that point 'the Architect' is tricking him into believing he is outside The Matrix in order to learn more about his anomaly or whatever nefarious plan he has for Neo."
Your thoughts are clear, Mac-San! Program Boy must have had a contingency plan to prevent Neone from fucking over the machines (after all, if humanity kicks the bucket, so will they).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Neo asked that same question. He claimed that the Architect would never allow humanity to completely be destroyed because it would mean the end of the machines as well. The Architect replaied that "there are levels of survival we are prepared to accept" which would seem to indicate that, even if Neo did choose to leave, there would be some, comparatively unpleasant, means for the machines to continue existing.
Doesn't matter. I don't believe anything the Architect said anyway.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So they're cool with living forever as toasters?
Mabye they plan on dormantcy until that pesky "no sunlight" issue corrects itself.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Why don't they build a big spaceship and go and live on Mercury? Lots of sun there. Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
That idea was that after the point that Neo enters the 'Core' or the 'Center' or the 'thingy what's in the middle of the important stuff' that he does not leave it. That at that point 'the Architect' is tricking him into believing he is outside The Matrix in order to learn more about his anomaly or whatever nefarious plan he has for Neo.
Of course, then we have to ask why we can see things going on while Neo's unconscious.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
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