I just got back from seeing the matrix reloaded and just got my animatrix dvd and i was wondering about the different ships we see. ive tried to create a list but i know ive missed some, i've only watched the first animatrix movie and i know i missed at least 2 in reloaded... here goes...
Nebuchadnezzar - Captain Morpheus - Destroyed Osiris - Captain Thadeus - Mark VI no.16 - Made in the USA Year 2079 - Destroyed Logos - Captain Niobe Vigilant - Captain Soren - Destroyed Icarus -
I got the info for the Osiris from a screencap of its dedication plaque. if anybody knows any i've missed i'd be glad for you to let me know. thanks.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I can't think of any more... but the names they chose are interesting.
Nebuchadnezzar was a Biblical king of Babylon.
Osiris was an Egyptian god.
Logos is Greek for "The Word" I believe and refers to Christ.
Icarus was a Greek god.
So, we're left with Vigilant, which seems to be the only one without any direct religious significance. Odd.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If you go back and watch Matrix 1 again then you'll see a shot of the Neb's own dedication plaque. I think it's just before the scene with Morpheus and Neo in the construct.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Logos is Greek for "The Word" I believe and refers to Christ.
It can, among other things.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Yeah, I'm 90% sure it was Vigilant, I'm going to see it again on Wednesday so I'll try to verify it. I plan on getting the information from the Plaque of the Nebuchadnezzar but I'll have to wait till I next see my dad and borrow his copy as I dont have it.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
MARK III No. 11
NEBUCHADNEZZAR
MADE IN THE USA YEAR 2069
36m, 40s into the movie.
There's a stripe after the A in USA, making it look like USA.I Might just be the mold frame.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Thanks Nim. Now, did anyone happen to catch the two ship names i missed out? There's the name of the ship that picks up the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar after its destruction. I believe Link shouts out "Its the xxxxx". The other is when the Nebuchadnezzar first docks in Zion and Trinity and Neo make their way to their place, when everyone flocks around them you hear two different people say something along the lines of "Neo, watch over my relative on the XXXXX". One said the Icarus, the other I missed.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
my cap of the Osiris's plaque if anyone cares.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: Thanks Nim. Now, did anyone happen to catch the two ship names i missed out? There's the name of the ship that picks up the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar after its destruction. I believe Link shouts out "Its the xxxxx".
Hammer.
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: The other is when the Nebuchadnezzar first docks in Zion and Trinity and Neo make their way to their place, when everyone flocks around them you hear two different people say something along the lines of "Neo, watch over my relative on the XXXXX". One said the Icarus, the other I missed.
Nosus or Nosis (the woman saying it has a strong accent) - if it's Nosis it could be from the Greek for "understanding".
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Thanks Phoenix.... I'll try and check on the spelling of the second one...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Gnosis.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Simon's probably right what with the Christian mysticism and whathaveyou, but it could also be Knossos.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
So, what's with these commissioning plaques? Were these ships really built in the late 21st century USA, and somehow survived all the recyclings of Zion? Or built anew each time, by the "early" Zionese, under the illusion that they were living in the late 21st century and had just recently escaped underground? Or built anew by the Machines, and donated to the Zionese?
The latter is probably what the movie implies, although the former would be what the original plaque from the first movie was meant to signify. The middle possibility doesn't seem all that likely, since the Zionese probably wouldn't call Zion "USA" even immediately after going underground, nor would the dates be very plausible.
But that prompts the question of how the restart of Zion and the ships is "justified" for the Zionese. What sort of a fake past is fed to the Council - a story of a near-loss of Zion, with just 23 survivors, or a story of continuous history, mentally re-enforced on everybody after the liberation process has replenished Zion's population to a level that fits the continuity illusion?
The latter would dictate that Zion be a Matrix-type controlled illusion. The former could allow for a free, physically existing Zion, just with misled inhabitants (and possible moles).
This is old, idle and somewhat stale speculation, of course. I just wanted to sound the waters for any tidbits that could reinforce one theory or the other - and perhaps the history of the ships could offer us some sort of a handle?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Neo = 6th "version" of The One.
Now = close to 2199, according to Morpheus.
Also, the Matrix wasn't created in 1999, humanity had to grow vain, complacent and decadent first, as the Animatrix collection implies. And if the commission plaques are to be believed, the latest date when humans still had industry capability was 2079 (my 100th birthday), birth of the Osiris. I'll be the head in the jar used to christen her, mmm.
So, about 120 years left, say one new prodigy every 20 years, starting with that first superdude that taught the others how to fight.
Of course, since neither the Oracle nor Morpheus can be trusted to be accurate, everything's out the window, fucked up, fucked down, fucked sideways.
I WANT TO SEE "REVOLUTIONS"!!!
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Of course, since neither the Oracle nor Morpheus can be trusted to be accurate, everything's out the window, fucked up, fucked down, fucked sideways.
I WANT TO SEE "REVOLUTIONS"!!!
Amen man. The trailer for Revolutions looks better than that of Reloaded. However, it has ALOT to live up to so I'm going to try and not raise my hopes. And thanks everyone for your help with the ship names.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm guessing that the hover craft were actually built in the early twenty first century and have survived all this time. After the various destructions of Zion, the new populous finds the wrecks of their predecessor's hovercraft and assume that they are wrecks from when the machines took over. They then rebuild them and reuse them.
However, it still leaves the question as to what the new Zionese know or think they know when they find Zion and how much of Zion is intact.
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm:
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Of course, since neither the Oracle nor Morpheus can be trusted to be accurate, everything's out the window, fucked up, fucked down, fucked sideways.
I WANT TO SEE "REVOLUTIONS"!!!
Amen man. The trailer for Revolutions looks better than that of Reloaded. However, it has ALOT to live up to so I'm going to try and not raise my hopes. And thanks everyone for your help with the ship names.
How about this: When the Mechines attack and go for the kill, they try to keep as many mechines alive for the next bunch of humans to take over.
or if it is just a Matrix in a Matrix (which I dont like, or believe) they could just bring up the code to put more ships there.
For the next bunch of humans I would say that the One tells them were to go. (and other things, like search out for the Oracle, or There will be another one)
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
First off, obviously the machines wouldn't spare 23 Zionians to be brainwashed into becoming the new "founders" of Zion. If Neo would've cooperated with the Architect then 23 fresh pod-people would've been "liberated", after Neo had checked them out inside the matrix and assured himself that they'd be made of the right stuff and up to the challenge of creating Zion and liberating more people.
Secondly, the machines could have whole stockades and reserves of human transports and vehichles in mothballs from the original war, ready to be "planted" and rediscovered by the new batch of humans.
Though I doubt most machines are aware of the "great illusion", to make it seem realistic. The agents were certainly held out of the loop, kept on a strict "need to know"-basis...
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Just getting back to the confusion on the spelling of one of the ships, I was playing Enter The Matrix on GameCube with the subtitles on and in one of the filmed cut scenes there is a reference to "Jacob from the Gnosis". Now the script for the game was written by the Wachowski's so its safe to say its the actual "Matrix canon" spelling.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Interestingly enough I just saw "Reloaded" again and the reference to the Gnosis does also reference that same "Jacob" as the game.
With the multiple theories about the multiple Matrix's I thought this point which might add scope to the time span of each of the multiple Matricies...
Councillor Hamann says he spent the first 11 years of his life asleep. We can assume he means he was freed from the matrix at the age of 11. Anthony Zerbe (the actor who plays him and interestingly enough, Admiral Matthew Dougherty in Insurrection) is 67 years old according to the IMDB. If we assume Councillor Hamann is the same age, then that means that the current matrix has run for at LEAST 66 years. just a thought.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: Interestingly enough I just saw "Reloaded" again and the reference to the Gnosis does also reference that same "Jacob" as the game.
With the multiple theories about the multiple Matrix's I thought this point which might add scope to the time span of each of the multiple Matricies...
Councillor Hamann says he spent the first 11 years of his life asleep. We can assume he means he was freed from the matrix at the age of 11. Anthony Zerbe (the actor who plays him and interestingly enough, Admiral Matthew Dougherty in Insurrection) is 67 years old according to the IMDB. If we assume Councillor Hamann is the same age, then that means that the current matrix has run for at LEAST 66 years. just a thought.
56 years, surely?
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
LOL **bows head in shame**.... I'm not usually that retarded, I promise!!!
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Just curious, did anyone do a quick head count during the scene with the council meeting to see how many captains there were? They were after all, convinently color-coded ala ST. It would give us a rough idea as to how big the human fleet was, at minimum, and how many people they had running around in the matrix (assuming a minimum of 3 per ship, and most ships being out and about at any given time).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That actually brings up another question (for me anyway): Why do the rebels hack into the Matrix? Is it for the sole purpose of freeing minds? Or are they doing something else?
In the first one, we were sort of left with the impression that all the Zionese believed in The One, but we only had Morpheus' point of view and that of his crew who obviously believed in him. So the impression was there that *all* the crews were looking for the One. But it turns out that very few people believe as Morpheus does. So is the mission of these ships solely to free minds from the Matrix?
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
I'm not so sure. Although I think that is a major reason why they hack in, there must be some other reason IMO. Maybe they can somehow use it to fight against the machines?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Maybe they just get bored?
Seriously though I think it must be something to do with the fight against the machines, possibly allowing them to share information without having to head back to Zion or using traceable radio waves (We saw the blind dump thing in Final Flight...).
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Well it seems to be a very systematic practise, and all significant crewmembers of all those ships met inside the matrix, in the beginning of "Reloaded". Just being in the matrix is potentially lethal for a rebel, I do not think anyone spends more time there than they absolutely have to. Everyone liberated knows how dangerous the agents can be.
Another theory, one that worries me. Agent Smith obviously tried to "assimilate" Neo before the 'Burly Brawl' started, and he made it clear he was after something Neo possessed. Thus, any information Bane carried was absorbed by Smith, and so he had very good information about the ship his host was serving on, probably even the EMP.
If this is true, Smith would be a golden goose to the machine hegemony, lets hope he carries enough scorn for his former masters to carry on his maverick routine out of spite.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... the point about the meeting in the Matrix is a good one. Ships scattered all over the planet could communicate with one another by meeting inside the matrix. They could also leave information there to be found by other rebels. I haven't seen Osiris yet, but I'm guessing something like that happened.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: With the multiple theories about the multiple Matrix's I thought this point which might add scope to the time span of each of the multiple Matricies...
Councillor Hamann says he spent the first 11 years of his life asleep. We can assume he means he was freed from the matrix at the age of 11. Anthony Zerbe (the actor who plays him and interestingly enough, Admiral Matthew Dougherty in Insurrection) is 67 years old according to the IMDB. If we assume Councillor Hamann is the same age, then that means that the current matrix has run for at LEAST 66 years. just a thought.
Poor math aside, Morpheus actually stated in his address to Zion that they had been fighting the Machines for 100 years.
Which would mean that it has been approximately 500 years since the Second Renaissance, which would put the actual year of the movies somewhere around the 2600's!
I don't buy the "Matrix within a Matrix" theory for two reasons.
1. It's a cheep trick and is far too predictable.
2. Know one in Zion remembers what happened the last time around because know one ever survives except "The One" (which puts a slightly more ominous twist on his title).
If you remember, the Architect told Neo that if he chose to go to the source that he would have to choose X amount of people from the Matrix to free and start Zion all over again. Zion need not be in the same place every time, there could be four other Zions out there, buried under a mountain of rubble. Also remember what Morpheus said in the first move, that The One who came before freed "The first of us" meaning that each successive Zion is descended from Matrix escapes, not survivors of the war with the machines. (Which would also explain why they don't know the year, coz they don't know how long the Matrix has been online). Presumably the naturally born humans that we saw (Tank, Dozer, Link) are descendants from a previous generation of liberated minds.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Basically Aban, the crew of the Osiris discovers the machines digging in to Zion and as a rsult get attacked by sentinels. During the ensuing chase through the sewers Jue, the first mate of the Osiris hacks into the matrix and posts(!) a disc with the info on and sends a message to Zion telling someone to retrieve the disc. Why they didnt just transmit the info to Zion rather than the dump is beyond me.
On another note we also find out that Zion is 4 kilometres underground. that seems pretty close to the surface in my opinion. Surely it wouldn't take the machines long to dig to that depth?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The deepest hole ever dug is only 4.8 kilometers deep.
Well, wait. The article clarifies that that is the deepest gold mine in the world. Anyway, my point is that four kilometers is pretty darn deep. And hot. Incredibly uncomfortable, and no place to hold a rave. You lose enough fluid on E already, without the club being far beneath the surface of the earth.
Incidently, the deepest hole ever dug is +12 kilometers deep. Which is, uh, even deeper. And surely more hellacious. LITERALLY. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, this IS a sci-fi movie. I'm sure that 200-meter boring machines can get 4000 meters in the space of a few days. And for anyone interest, the Earth's crust is usually between 10-50km thick.
They dropped the message in the box because they can't have traceable transmissions to Zion - they demonstrate in "Reloaded" that they do not have direct communications between Zion and their fleet. It's also bound to be tough in the first place... All but the most powerful radio waves have problems with thousands of meters of rock.
Now, some could argue that if it were possible to send a message to Zion, it wouldn't matter since the machines suppsedly knew where it was anyway...
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hammer might be in relation to Thor's Hammer?
Maybe they're getting all Stargateish! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Sol what is that link to?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, hell, obviously, and how scientists proved that it exists underground. For certain, without any doubt whatsoever. Yes.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
And that people's spirit are living down there, and that you can hear them scream, if you drill a really deep hole and lower a mike in. Yes.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
sometiems i hear screams from inside teh toilet!!
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
That would be the wailing of the midichlorians, mourning so many brothers and sisters that they are being separated from forever.
Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on :
Despite the fact that this topic has turned to shit, i have another question. Did the Vigilant get destroyed or did the crew just die? I cant remember and I would like to know.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The squids threw the bomb on the docked ship, the explosion seemed to penetrate the whole ship, including the Jack-in room. I'd say it was completely destroyed, no sense for the machines to cut back on kilotons, I guess...
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The Vigilante was destroyed.
I am keen on the idea that the elements of Zion-the council chamber, the engineering core, the ships, and the rest-are part of a larger computer program. The Architect inferred as such and this would explain how Agent Smith is able to operate outside his environment.
A question is raised in the Architect's chamber-how many of the former Ones choose the path of Zion, and how many chose a different path?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
All the Neos take the same door, and they're just as likely projections of Neo's possible choices as they are recordings from previous iterations. For one thing, there are a heck of a lot more than five.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
No, the Neos in the screens represent all the possible things Neo could do - stare dumbfoundedly, scream, swear, say something insightful.. The idea is to reinforce what the Architect was saying - that Neo had no choice because it was all predetermined. The Oracle said basically the same thing.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: A question is raised in the Architect's chamber-how many of the former Ones choose the path of Zion, and how many chose a different path?
I thought the whole point was that they had all chosen to save humanity and re-start Zion, resetting the whole chain of events. This was the first time the other door was taken.
The question is, if the Machines truly *knew* what Neo was going to do all along, then why didn't they stop him? They've now allowed him to cause the destruction of the Matrix, which leaves them in the shitter basically. So what are they going to do now?
I suppose we can only assume that they are Supremely Confident in All ThingsTM and have a contingency plan...
-MMoM Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I don't believe all the machines are aware of all the plots, plans and insights the architect is flaunting. The Agents didn't realize Mr. Anderson's value or he'd be dead in that interrogation room. They are just small programs, not machines per se. Same with the hunter/killer squids, they are just dumb tools.
The machines aren't gifted with clairvoyance or prescience either, the Oracle knew about Neo's future and actions because they were inside the matrix (her world) and because she had been there with the previous "One's". Plus she's an old program herself so she can probably see the matrix-world in raw code as well.
The humans' options are of course limited due to their tactical, numeric and technological disadvantage. The thing that separates humans from these machines are their free will, their hope and most importantly, their randomness and unpredictability.
And the singing meat.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Just thought of something: why did the machines even stay on Earth in the first place? If what they need is sunlight then why not go to some other planet or even just into space?
I suppose the scorching of the sky thing might have something to do with it...
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The machines are able to survive without humans as per the Architect's words.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yes, but olny at a reduced level. So why not leave earth. Plenty of sunlight in the rest of the system.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
So perhaps they have gone there, done that, and now rule the whole Sol system. Doesn't mean they'd have a good reason to retreat from Earth, though.
Then again, if Zion is as fake as Earth's unharmed surface is, it would make sense for Earth's devastated, Matrix-podded surface to be fake as well. Perhaps the Matrix is not located on Earth at all? Perhaps it has no real physical components (humans, squid-bots, bedrock) whatsoever, but merely runs as a screensaver on the laptop of a random �berbeing in an �ber-subway on the way to �ber-work on planet �ber?
Incidentally, the Finnish cc did translate "The Hammer" as "Thor's Hammer". Did the cc people pull that out of their arses, or was there something in the script or cc package about that?
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