I posted this over on a Harry Potter message board, but I thought I'd post it here. Y'all are a bit more... shall we say, cultured than the average 14-year-old HP-fan, so I thought you might appreciate it more. Someone posted a thread over at www.thesnitch.net talking about supposed similarities between Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. Well, most of the similarities people seem to find are things like Wormtail and Wormtongue both being traitors, but I decided to compile a list of some overall thematic similarities shared by Harry Potter, The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, Babylon 5, and Star Wars. Spoilers for all.
There's always a prophecy that tells of a great hero to come, about whose actions will revolve the fate of all: Trelawney's about Harry, that he would be the one with the power to strike down the Dark Lord; Valen's about the coming war and Sheridan, the One, not to mention various glimpses of the future throughout the run; the Oracle's about The One, how Morpheus would find him and Trinity would love him; and whoever's about the one who will bring balance to the force, whatever the frell that means, which I'm assuming is actually Luke for the sake of argument. (I don't recall a prophecy in LotR, but it's been a while. Anybody?) That prophecy also tells of a great war, which will be a repitition or continuation of a past war: the repeating Shadow wars of Babylon 5, with a 1,000 year interval between previous and current; the wars against Sauron, again with a 1,000 year interval; the wars against Valdemort, with a fifteen-year interval; the war to save the Republic (which, uniquely, was LOST the first time!); and the war against the machines in the Matrix, which was believed to be a continuation of the war of the early 21st century, but is in reality a repitition of five previous identical wars. This war is against a great evil force which was only barely stopped the previous cycle, and that only temporarily: Sauron by dumb luck of having his finger cut off; the Shadows by Valen's appearance with Babylon 4; Voldemort by the Potter's sacrifice; and the machines, supposedly by only missing one city, but in reality because they need that city and thus allow it to survive. The hero is always left with some physical damage as a result of his encounter with evil: Harry's scar; Luke's artificial arm; Sheridan's shortened lifespan; Frodo's missing finger. Neo we don't know yet, since Revolutions isn't out yet, but his coma at the end of Reloaded could certainly qualify.
Also, at some point the mentor is always removed from play, removing the hero's support structure and forcing the hero to act on his own: Kosh and General Hague die; Yoda and Obi-Wan die; Morpheus is captured, and later the prophecy is revealed as a lie; Gandalf "dies" at Khazad'dum. The hero has the legs knocked out from under him. We saw a bit of this in Harry in the fifth book, where he believes that none of the Order can be contacted and must act on his own. He's also shown that his father is not the man Harry thought him to be. Whether this will continue to a more extreme degree remains to be seen. There's also a running theme of good guys falling great distances as a consequence of a battle: Gandalf at Khazad'dum; Sheridan at Z'ha'dum; Luke in Empire; and Trinity in Reloaded. Haven't seen this one in Harry Potter yet that I recall.
That's what I see thus far. There may be more. Or I may be seeing things that aren't there. Opinions, input?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Been reading Joseph Campbell lately?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
you see the hero prophecy more in fantasy, such as D&D, playing baldurs gate you're the offspring of an evil god Bhaal, the lord of murder. while it's been a awhile since i've played it, I believe there is a prophecy aspect in the game in which on of these "Bhaalspawn" would become the new lord of murder.
As for LOTR, there is the prophecy about the One ring. i'll probably watch it tommarrow now that you got me interested.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Actually Aragorn was The One in LOTR. An oracle in Arnor (the seat of the great N�men�reans at the time, IIRC) prophesized his appearance and role in the endgame, many thousand years before the fellowship.
Posted by Dr Phlox (Member # 680) on :
No matter how original and how off kilter u try to be you still run into the conventions. There's no escaping it. And if you don't it doesn't gel. Can you imagine police cheif that doesn't snap every scene he's in. -------------------- Axel Foley: Don't you think I realize what's going on here, miss? Who do you think I am, huh? Don't you think I know that if I was some hotshot from out of town that pulled inside here and you guys made a reservation mistake, I'd be the first one to get a room and I'd be upstairs relaxing right now. But I'm not some hotshot from out of town, I'm a small reporter from "Rolling Stone" magazine that's in town to do an exclusive interview with Michael Jackson that's gonna be picked up by every major magazine in the country. I was gonna call the article "Michael Jackson Is Sitting On Top of the World," but now I think I might as well just call it "Michael Jackson Can Sit On Top of the World Just As Long As He Doesn't Sit in the Beverly Palm Hotel 'Cause There's No Niggers Allowed in There!"
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Yeah, in the 50s/60s editions of Dragnet. Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
quote:Can you imagine police cheif that doesn't snap every scene he's in.
Easily.
Occupation: Writer.
Hmmm.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Of course there are parallels. They all borrowed rather generously from ancient mythology...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
No, I'm afraid that Simon is again the winner, gaining precious points for promptness, directness and succinctness as is his wont. The only possible contender would have been "Joe Campbell, much?" but he was so already there.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Alas, it is impossible to best The Giant Sour One.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
See, that's one thing I was wondering about. Is there one big myth that they all borrow all these elements from, or did Lord of the Rings first compile all those elements from several older myths, and the rest of 'em borrow from that? Or is it all a grand coincidence?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think you can just chalk it all down to that theory, I forget who first espoused it, that there are 'really' only about 9 basic plotlines and any story only ever borrows from bits and pieces of each. Themes found in LoTR crop up in non-SF/Fantasy stories (although it's far too late for me to think of any right now!).
That said, I'm interested in where you're going with this so carry on. Maybe you'll be able to explain why I keep thinking Voldemort will turn out to be Harry's father. 8)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Though if you ask me Jung was off his rocker, and I'm not the hugest Campbell fan. But if it's "All myths stem from a common source" you want, here are two good places to start.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Ooh, thanks! Got those on hold at the library now.
As for Valdy being Harry's father, he's not, James looks too much like Harry. But part of it is that, like I mentioned with Wormtail and Wormtongue, people look for plot similarities that are way too specific, when the real similarities are between more general things. "People getting their arms cut off" as opposed to "people having physical wounds".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What's the difference though between a rip-off and a homage? Wormtail and Wormtongue's roles in their respective series seem very different. After all, Scabbers wasn't poisioning Ron's mind for years before Harry turned up, was he?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
A homage has better funding.
I suppose that it could be argued that the Terminator films have many of the elements you're discussing; the prophesy in that John Conner knows he is destined to lead humanity to victory against the machines (the great war, although it isn't a continuation of a previous war). Removal of the mentor; could be the destruction of the T-101 in Terminator 2 or the death of Sarah Connor prior to T3.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm... I don't know about the entire series, but the first Terminator might (might) fit a few parts. There's a prophecy of sorts about John Connor, the hero to come who will defeat the machines. This war already happened in a different timeline with a different John Connor, so it would be a repitition of a past (meta-past, whatever) war. The machines were stopped in the first war, but if the Terminator completes its mission that won't happen. And Sarah Connor has to finish off the T-800 alone, after Reese is killed. Of course, unlike the rest of the sources I mentioned, the first Terminator movie SUCKED, but it's at least similar to the theme. Good catch. Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
the first Terminator movie SUCKED Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
This is Omega. This is an opinion by Omega. It is a crazy stupid mad opinion.
Anyone shocked?
No.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
They still catch my immune system off-guard every time.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
He possibly hates it because there were female nipples in it, and as we all know, female nipples were the creation of SATAN HIMSELF!
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
The first Terminator movie SUCKED?! S-U-C-K-E-D?????!!!!
The movie that made Arnold Schwarzenagger a movie star? The movie that made the phrase "I'll be baaaack" a household phrase? The movie that allowed James Cameron to move from B-class movie director to A-class movie director? The movie that was made for next to nothing ($6,400,000) and looks like something on screen? The movie that took a tired cliche, a computer wants to take over the world, and made it seem new again?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I did not say it was the worst movie ever. I did not say that every single aspect of it was beyond redemption. I just said it sucked, not that it was worthless. The score was horrible, and for some reason I could never identify the pacing seemed very much off. Apparently that was just me. Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
quote: The movie that allowed James Cameron to move from B-class movie director to A-class movie director?
On second thought, I do not support this kind of movie at all.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Apparently that was just me.
Yes it was. Now explain your musical taste abnormalities.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Len is the greatest musical act in the last three thousand years.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The main theme from Terminator is very very very good. But the synth rendition from the original movie is horrible. Thus explained.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, I meant in general.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
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