I figured we'd need a thread to discuss the good Stargate episode this week. We get a lot of continuity and great moments between the two casts.
Shepherd passing the lemon to Mitchell! Brilliant!
McKay telling Carter about his hallucination last season was downright hillarious.
Carter: Was I naked? McKay: (pause) Partially.
I thought for sure that the plan would wind up failing in the end, but sure enough, they've got the supergate dialed from Pegasus. This doesn't stop the Ori from building another supergate, but at least the Milky Way just got itself a short reprieve.
Yet another Wraith hiveship taken out, but also an Ori toilet! One down, three to go.
So the hologram was that of Morgan Le Fey? Am I correct in understanding that the Le Fey hologram was only actually Le Fey in this episode, and that previous instances seen on Atlantis were just a hologram?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:So the hologram was that of Morgan Le Fey? Am I correct in understanding that the Le Fey hologram was only actually Le Fey in this episode, and that previous instances seen on Atlantis were just a hologram?
I would assume so, yes. However, was this the same actress who appeared in "Rising," describing the basic quickstart guide to the Pegasus Galaxy? If not, are they supposed to be the same character?
Regardless, this episode sure was PACKED with great story elements. They managed to seamlessly combine portions from both series, yet it was obviously an SG-1 episode. Lovely to see Sam and Rodney sniping at each other again (recapping "Grace Under Pressure" was something I was eagerly expecting). And that lemon! (Did we know that Sheppard carries a lemon with him all the time? Regardless, that was hilarious!)
So, how many times now has it been that Teal'c's incredible coolness under pressure has saved the day and scored a major victory for the Good Guys? It sure was satisfying to see that toiletship explode in that prolonged blast, rather than just a simple, quick vaporization. (Naturally we can be sure Adria wasn't on that ship... dammit, when are we going to see how much more attractive the conversion to Origin can become?! )
Still, Stargate seems to be getting VERY confident in leaving big downers at the ends of many episodes. The Ancients don't want to help us? Wow, that's a bit of a shocker, despite their obvious noninterference beliefs.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I only just watched the episode this afternoon, so my notes are late. I didn't read Krenim's post while writing these notes, so nevermind any repeated observations...
-Strangely, it's SG-1 that provides new VFX shots of a Daeldalus-class ship approaching Atlantis from the air, during daylight no less. I've never noticed any moons orbiting Atlantis' planet until now - we see one small one here.
-The big display whatsit at the aft of the bridge is at an odd angle today, probably to hide any wierd reflections from the lighting or something during the establishing shot.
-So are we alternating what ship heads to Pegasus now? The Daedalus has been the only ship to do so thus far; we know that the Prometheus as capable of doing so too, but this is the first time some other ship besides the Daedalus has made the journey. I'm guessing this is because she's on her way home now, and Odyssey can get our gang there faster; there's no real point in keeping one ship on station in the Milky Way anyway, as it doesn't stand a chance against an Ori toiletship.
-I'm glad they waited until the third season of Atlantis to do a big crossover like this; we get to have more established characters not just playing second fiddle to the older team, despite being the secondary characters. The banter between equivalent characters (McKay and Carter, Mitchell and Sheppard, Jackson and Weir) is great, and shows the known contrasts between them. Fun stuff.
-There's a LOT of tech in the opening act. In short, they want to establish a wormhole between a gate in Pegasus (powered by a local black hole) and one in the Milky Way, which Teal'c has placed right next to the Ori supergate. Then, using a trick from way back in SG-1's first season, they will detonate a nuke at the Pegasus gate, making the wormhole jump to the Milky Way supergate, thus preventing the Ori from dialing in to it and sending more ships. However, there's nothing to keep the Ori from building another one, so this is at best a stopgap measure.
-The Atlantis expedition has managed to explore about half of the city in two years.
-McKay hasn't forgotten the time that Carter didn't save him from certain doom when he was almost drowning int he back of a puddle jumper, and he makes sure she won't forget this favor she never did.
-Shep apparently keeps a lemon on him at all times to antagonize McKay, who is deathly allergic to citrus. He literally passes the fruit to Mitchell to keep the torch aflame. It's good to know that entire casts from two shows can't stand the guy.
-Meanwhile, Daniel and Vala head to the Lantean holographic room (not seen since the first season finale) to query the database to find Merlin's weapon. The room is a little redundant, as you can access the database from any regular terminal and without the avatar, but it was designed to help newcomers or young children about the city and how to use it.
-The holo room is also apparently an energy guzzler - strange when you have a ZPM. One wonders if they keep the ZPM reserved for shield, cloak and earth-dialing use, and otherwise just use their existing network of naquadah generators for day-to-day activities?
-The hologram is not the younger woman who showed up in a taped message in "Rising". I don't think it was meant to be... Incidentally, the actress is Sarah Strange, known in anime circles as the first voice for the male Ranma in "Ranma 1/2". FYI.
-The Lantean database is current as of Atlantis' abandonment. In particular, when Daniel points out Proclaroush Taonas (the place where O'Neill finds their first ZPM), the database notes that it was one of the first Lantean cities, abandonned when the sun was going red giant on them. This fits with what was actually seen in "The Lost City" two years ago.
-Vala cuts through Daniel's extensive and boring research methods and get him to simply ask where the damn planets are. They are thus pointed out automatically as completely differently named places. Strangely, the database gives them a gate address with Earth as the point of origin.
-The Odyssey brings their own gate to use for the wormhole jumping plan; note that it's a Milky Way gate and not a local Pegasus gate. This probably helps circumvent the Peagsus limitation that you need an extra module to dial other galaxies. BTW, they're probably using one of the leftover gates they salvaged last year from Baal in "Off the Grid".
-The writers don't forget the relativistic effects of having fun next to a black hole - the messages back and forth from Teal'c at the supergate are slowed by time dilation.
-This episode makes use of an unplanned coincidence in casting between both shows. Matthew Walker has been on Stargate a couple times, but in Atlantis' first season he showed up as Moros, the high councillor of Atlantis, in "Before I Sleep", where an alternate version of Dr. Weir was transported to Atlantis during the Wraith siege of the place. Walker was subsequently cast as Merlin the following year, and gave the writers a reason to tie both characters together through the same actor. In other words, Moros = Merlin, who once ran Atlantis and came back to Earth during the exodus.
-Just in time to spoil the fun, the Wraith detect the Odyssey and head to intercept. Unfortunately, they're too close to the black hole to warn, so Atlantis dials Earth and gets them to send SG-11 to the SGC Gamma Site closer to the supergate, there to warn him by subspace communication. Meanwhile, the Ori also show up on the Milky Way side.
-And so, we find out that the educational hologram was created by Morgan Le Fey, who was once on Atlantis as well. Better still, the REAL Morgan became an ascended being, but has been watching SG-1's progress against the Ori. She ended up inhabiting the hologram to give Daniel the location of the two planets as a way to "cheat" the ascendeds' dumb noninterference rules. It doesn't take long for Daniel to figure out this ruse.
-Okay, so here's the deal. When the Lanteans came back to Earth after the Wraith siege, they found Earth to be way too primitive for their liking. So, some spread out amongst the galaxy via the Antarctic gate, some seeded the local Earth cultures, and some (like Morgan and Merlin) ultimately ascended. This is all before the Goa'uld came by. Anyway, some time later Merlin figured the Ori would be coming back and descended again to create his weapon, recruiting a batch of locals to help him (thus giving birth to the Arthurian legends). Merlin maintained all his ascended knowledge and most of his powers, which naturally made his former co-workers pretty nervous.
-Morgan is eventually convinced to try to help out the "lowers", but is naturally caught and whisked awy at the critical time. She leaves in the same VFX flurry that Daniel went through when he tried to kill Anubis a few years back.
-The Wraith show up and attack! The Odyssey lures them closer to the black hole via a slingshot maneuver, which screws up the Wraith's scramblers enough for our heroes to beam a nuke on board. Then, a remarkable series of deus ex machina events: the exploding Wraith ship is channeled through the wormhole instead of destroying the gate; the added energy causes the wormhole to jump to the supergate and activate it JUST AS THE TOILET SHIP PASSES OVER IT; and the kawoosh subsequently destroys the toilet ship! So, the gang has a happy day by killing a Wraith ship, killing an Ori ship (their first real victory in doing so), and disabling the Ori supergate. Not a bad day.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh, one other thing... was anyone else getting bad Andromeda flashbacks during the slingshot maneuver? All we were missing was Doctor Lam... Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yes!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Something else I completely forgot about that was incredibly hilarious: Vala demanding that everyone stop making cultural references that she couldn't understand. Was that a Farscape shout-out or what?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: -The hologram is not the younger woman who showed up in a taped message in "Rising". I don't think it was meant to be... Incidentally, the actress is Sarah Strange, known in anime circles as the first voice for the male Ranma in "Ranma 1/2". FYI.
Mark
I think I can second this guess. The actor for that previous hologram also showed up as an Atlantian in that episode where Weir goes back in time and I'm pretty sure that she was supposed to be the basis for the hologram (even if it was not explicitly said)...so if they went to the trouble of bringing her back once, then it would be weird not to for a third time...although not impossible.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
OK, if a gate horizon can hurt/destroy a toiletship, wouldn't you be able to use a cloaked jumper with a stargate attached to sidle up to the bridge of one and then...FLUSH? Or you could drop a cloaked gate in the path of one and when it gets close, open a wormhole to the blackhole star. If it doesn't destroy it, you probably still gain several years actual time to develop a way to deal with that ship thus neutralizing it.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think I missed a couple minutes of dialogue early on, so maybe they explained this, but... A gate's address is determined by its location. I.e., if you took the Earth gate, stuck it on a ship, and transported it to, say, Abydos, you'd have to dial the Abydos address to reach it. So, the gate that they set up alongside the supergate... how did they dial it? What would its address have been?
In fact, when the whole "move a gate, change its address" thing was established, didn't it seem like the addresses corresponded to planets? Weren't they unable to use the gate on the ship until the ship was in orbit?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Good points- it implies a more fundamental understanding of how a gate address system works than what has been stated before- If they can determine a gate's address by comparing it a fixed location (galactic center for example) then the SGC could start exploring all of Earth's neighborhood systematicaly by dialing an address based on a known planet's location.
But I've not seen every episode...maybe this was already covered am ongst all the amazing Atlantian discoveries that we never hear about?
Also, what does this make? Five Wraith Hive Ships destroyed now? Six? Even the System Lords were not this....pussy. SGA's biggest weakness is that they lack a tough threat- the Morlocks just dont cut it. They could have the Ori as a threat though- now that the super-gate is offline, the Ori will have to get arounf the old-fashioned way- or by grabbing the proposed "gate network" mentioned on SGA this week to hopscotch around.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
While I do agree that the Wraith aren't as tough to beat as the System Lords were in their day, just look at where Earth was sitting back then. The expedition DOES have their own ship, puddle jumpers, and ten years' collective experience in gate travel, wormhole physics, and dealing with alien threats. Had they bumped into the Wraith ten years ago, they most certainly would have been a lot tougher for them to handle.
As it stands, it's been established that their tech isn't so tough - it's their nmbers that make them a threat. Only now that at least some of them are potentially capable of reaching Earth are people starting to worry back home.
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Wiz, remeber that it was the supergate that destroyed the Ori toilet, not the little one. A little one would do little damage to a ship that big.
The Gate addresses itself by planet, mostly like by planetary galatic position, which changes as the planet orbit the galatic center. This is why they couldn't dial any but the closets ones in the very beginning, since the ancient information was dated. After they corrected for time/orbit they could go to any gate. The dialogue said the the gate contacted the others nearby to establish itself. Like propagating an IP#/site name, only more plug and play. The 39 positions could have been a better number for creating the XYZ of a gate, and the distance.
Jason, the power of the Wraith was never an issue for the Lanteans, but the overwhelming numbers of them. Take the scene of the people of Abydos attacking the two Jaffa, although very weak in contrast, sticks to staves, the sheer numbers took the two Jaffa down. The System Lords, being far fewer in number, had to be far far stronger to maintain control. Once they lost the strength of the Jaffa they fell rather quickly.
Running a jumper through the gate bridge, er tunnel, system to the alpha site wouldn't be too bad, but the SGC seems like it would have limited accommodations for a jumper.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Also, everything else that we've seen hit by the vortex has gotten completely vaporized, right? The fact that there was anything left of the toiletship afterwards is impressive in and of itself.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
On the contrary... That's exactly what they did at the end of the eighth season IIRC, with their captured time jumper (them or the alternate universe them - can't remember). Either way, there is enough room in the gate room for the physical size of the jumper, and directly above the gate room is the missile silo they've used to haul the stargate itself out of the SGC before. Less space than the gatrium on Atlantis perhaps, but enough.
Mark
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:Also, what does this make? Five Wraith Hive Ships destroyed now? Six?
Ten, I think. This little group is making a sizeable dent in the Wraith population, for the number of casualties they've had.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Also, everything else that we've seen hit by the vortex has gotten completely vaporized, right? The fact that there was anything left of the toiletship afterwards is impressive in and of itself."
Well, the Ori ships have giant holes in the middle. Most of the vortex went through there. It just vaporized enough of the edge of that hole to cause the ship to star blowing up/breaking apart.
I can't remember, now... Does gravity, like radiation, propagate both ways through a wormhole? Was it a mistake that the Ori ship's debris stayed floating over the supergate, rather than being sucked in and completely destroyed?
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: What would its address have been?
Possibly the supergate and the new gate would have the same address while the regaular gate is there. I'm not sure if the supergate would have a DHD, but if not then presumably it would work on the same basis as an ordinary gate...where plugging in a DHD gives that gate primacy over the other. Like when the Russians used their gate with DHD to get teams there, rather than in to the SGC. I'd guess the supergate would be dialed using a ship-board dialer like you see on a jumper, and no doubt that wouldn't take over all functions of a static DHD considering it's not permenantly linked to a specific gate.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega:
quote:Also, what does this make? Five Wraith Hive Ships destroyed now? Six?
Ten, I think. This little group is making a sizeable dent in the Wraith population, for the number of casualties they've had.
TEN! In two(ish) seasons! That's gotta be at least five thousand wraiths...enough that you'd think that the wraith would be on a killing spree or at least desperately searching for a way to destroy Earth in retaliation. I mean, it's got to be at least 100 wariths for every human killed- that's got to be a huge threat to them.
So, from a story POV, either the Wraihs need to become way more powerful, way more ruthless (making for a darker show) or need to be replaced with something really menacing (just as the System Lords eventually were).
Another option is that the Wraith dont attack any more humans and focus on the less developed (and less threatening) races, and once Atlantis' secret is out (possibly via a surviving Michael) the refugees would flood through the Stargate to Atlantis as the only safe harbor from the Wraith.
Or the Wraith could harvest some leftover Aincent tech to attack atlantis with- I mean, they already know where all the old bases of the Aincents were, right?
Posted by Chris (Member # 71) on :
I think I may have an explanation for the gate's address:
When the Ori make a super-gate, a Prior goes to a planet through a regular gate. All the little pieces come through the gate and assemble in the formation of the super-gate. The Prior then encompasses the planet in a field that collapses it into a black hole, thus providing a power source for the super-gate. So, logically, the gate that Teal'c brought to the super-gate would have the same co-ordinates of the original gate before the planet went all squishy. Also, the super-gate would probably also have the same address. However, the point was made that in order to dial a gate of that size, you need another gate of the same size to establish a connection due to energy constraints, etc. Thus the nifty jumping technique.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:The Prior then encompasses the planet in a field that collapses it into a black hole, thus providing a power source for the super-gate.
Er...the fuck!?! That woud make a lone "Prior" just uber-godlike in power- far FAR more powerful than anything ever shown in the series.
Really, that would allow a single Prior to destroy whole solar systems.
Far more likely is that the (now extradimensional "ascended" Ori are themselves powering the Supergate...and that could be how they'll get rid of the Ori- some sort of feedback or by sucking out all their power through the gate.
Or it could be that goofy Merlin thingie.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
It's far more likely you should catch the ep that Tophy is referring to before deciding what's far more likely.
Also, the Priors aren't here for wholesale destruction.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Put simply, the Prior didn't have the power to create a black hole himself. He just created a forcefield around himself and the stargate that could absorb energy from enemy weaponry to expand. Once the forcefield encompassed the whole planet, it contracted again, forcing the mass of the planet to form a singularity that could power the supergate.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
"Beachhead" was also discussed on Flare here. God, we were so young back then...
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
As I was rewatching this tonight, I just noticed that Teal'C is piloting an Alkesh, not a scout/cargo ship. Have we ever seen one of these cloak before?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just a little behind in watching my Stargate...
just wanted to say that was an AMAZING episode. Very, very good.
I don't believe an explanation for the ability to dial two gates next to each other has been reached... maybe it's the fact that a small gate wouldn't normally dial a supergate so the small gate that Teal'c is protecting gets contacted first. The POWER of the blast in the Pegasus galaxy is not only enough to jump the connections but also power a super-gate.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: As I was rewatching this tonight, I just noticed that Teal'C is piloting an Alkesh, not a scout/cargo ship. Have we ever seen one of these cloak before?
Yes, actually... the very first time it appeared, in the big cliffhanger where they blew up that star. That was how it managed to ambush the captured mothership.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Plus, we know that the supergates don't operate under normal operational constraints to begin with. The nuke plus the exploding Wraith ship was enough to make the wormhole jump tot he supergate; it's the black hole that will power both ends indefinitely, as seen before in the first season. The potential solution is to detonate something to make the wormhold jump back, but a supergate would probably require a charge much larger than anything the Priors and their forces could move to it. It would probably make more sense just to create a new supergate, which is what they'll doubtless be moving to do next.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
So haven't they now got a permanent wormhole to the Pegasus Galaxy? Or just a one-way trip to a black-hole?
Wouldn't there also be effects of the blackhole coming out the otherside of the supergate? Let's hope there is no system around the supergate!
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
The wormhole is coming from Pegasus to the Milky Way. You could theoretically use that gate, but I wouldn't want to have to get near the black hole to do that!
I'm sure there are some effects on the Milky Way side, but that's a minor inconveniece to stop the Ori.
I just thought of something - the Ori had to collapse a planet into a singularity to power the first supergate. There was nothing around this one, so what did they do to power it? Obviously something on their end, but what? The first one would have been a nearly-permanent open gate, but this one isn't. Maybe this is the reason we haven't seen any more ships coming through is because they can't afford to power it up very often?
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
It sure was satisfying to see that toiletship explode in that prolonged blast, rather than just a simple, quick vaporization. (Naturally we can be sure Adria wasn't on that ship... dammit, when are we going to see how much more attractive the conversion to Origin can become?! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)