Fair to say that the next few episodes are probably going to be heavy in the regular/recurring cast body count. Who lives, who dies? Predictions only (I only know one confirmed death, and that person isn't on this list!):
Hot Dog -- Dead Kat -- Survivor Zarek -- Goner Anders -- Bites the farm. Gaeta -- Whacked by the Resistance. Dualla -- *snort* Like they'd kill the only African-Canadian on the show.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think Jammer has a biggest target painted on the back of his head at the moment, Anders is such an obvious candidate for killing off that they just might keep him around to spite, though not sure exactly what he's going to do once the fleet gets underway again.
I rather think Tom may be the next Vice President under Laura, or more interestingly visa-versa.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Dramatically, I can't see them getting rid of both Gaeta and Jammer for their (ostensible) Collaboration. I can envisage a number of powerful scenarios by which one or the other would come a cropper, but not both. My initial instinct is to say Gaeta will survive, but then. . . what is the point of Gaeta anyway? Apart from jockeying with Dualla for the top of the Probably A Cylon List. My money would be on Jammer to survive through Joining NCP For Good Reasons But Gets In Over Head But Redeems Self By Saving Cally, while Gaeta is toast for Collaborating In Order To Help The Resistance But No-one Knows He's Doing It.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Gaeta - Yep, BSG really loves the tragedy! Jammer - Survives with loads of guilt, and a commemorative black ski mask. Zarek - Way too interesting a character to kill off. Anders - Dead Man Walking.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I concur. I like Rev's thinking about the potential next Pres-VP combination. Whoever ends up on top (now THAT'd make for one hell of a Roslin-Zarek dynamic!) Zarek has to be retained.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
>>I rather think Tom may be the next Vice President >>under Laura, or more interestingly visa-versa.
I think it would be vice-versa, assuming he survives. He is, after all, with Baltar a traitor and certain to not continue in his role as President after their rescue, the legitimate head of the Colonial government.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Yeah. The thing about Tom and Laura is I think they both prefer being on top, and that's just awkward...
--Jonah
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
*sigh* What's with everyone's incessant need to have everyone paired into some romantic setup? Roslin's character would be severely hobbled by that kind of attachment. I find it much more interesting to have the casual, heartwarming trust and familiarity exhibited with her and (Bill) Adama... like those scenes when he was talking to her as the cancer was running amok.
Also, you just KNOW that Zarek is going to find something else to make trouble about once the fleet hits the road again. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I had no need to see everyone pair-bonded. About the only one I wanted to see in a secure relationship was Boomer. But there is a well-documented link between violence and sex, and having one's species nearly exterminated would probably serve to augment the mating drive just a wee bit.
Be that as it may. I'm not trying to foist Zarak and Roslin off on each other, I was just commenting on others' attempts to do so.
--Jonah
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
How much tension has been shown with Roslin and Zarek ? NONE... at least that qualifies as tension that underlies some sexual attraction. I would say that their relationship would be more advesarial at best than anything. He did work for Baltar... I doubt that she can trust him after that.
As for the body count... we'll just have to wait and see who else gets shot/blow up/decompressed to open space/electricuted/knifed/drowned/staked through the heart.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think it's interesting how many people insist on painting Zarek as and out-and-out bad guy. While he has been an antagonist in a couple of storylines I've never taken him as anything other than someone who belives what he's doing is the right think and though his methods aren't always to be condoned I think you can at least appriciate his point of view.
Anyway, rant over.
quote:How much tension has been shown with Roslin and Zarek ? NONE... at least that qualifies as tension that underlies some sexual attraction. I would say that their relationship would be more advesarial at best than anything. He did work for Baltar... I doubt that she can trust him after that.
So he did, he also spent 4 months in a holding cell for refusing to co-operate with the Cylons, so at least he's not a collaborator. So that coupled with the fact that as Snay pointed out he has a legal right so sucession on Baltar is impeched/exiled/whatever happens to him, could quite possibly the reason he may just be the next President of the "Colonies".
Of course Roslin is the obvious choice for vice-pres, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
My prediction is that Cally is a cylon. (the one that ran toward where Tyrol and his guy before they took out the toasters. )
Why? In first episode, Jammer told her not to look back and run.. so she went down the hill and ran "away" from the "back" of truck"
in 2nd episode (last night) tyrol seen her making escape from truck (on right side) running away from "front" of truck.
So real Cally ran and heard gunfire. Cylon Cally was "sacked" by tyrol before the gunfire because she was in the way of gun's sight.
There you go..
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I thought the same thing. Not about Cally being a Cylon, but about the two shots of her escape being completely inconsistent. Not only does the later shot not have her falling down that slope, but she doesn't run through trees, and she's not still running when the gunfire starts.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Holy frack! What a great season so far. I was literally on the edge of my seat after the last episode.
When I first heard about the allegory betwen BSG and the war in Iraq (well, not a war, but...) I wondered how well it would work. Putting the Colonials in the role of the terrorists, and the Cylons in the role of the US Forces was an interesting idea, but I didn't see it working well because there are NO Cylon civilians.
But the civilian casualties turn out to be the collaborators and some innocent bystanders. Just like real life. When a terrorist bombs a marketplace, he blows up innocent bystanders. Sometimes those bystanders may even be sympathetic to his cause.
It works better than I expected. Not completely, though. Palestinian terrorists, for example, don't wander into a Palestinian market and blow up their neighbors. The civilians may be innocent bystanders, but they are still from the "enemy" nation.
On the other hand, it does work. Bombings in Iraq hurt more Coalition forces and their allies than they do Iraqi on the side of the bombers. On BSG there were more Cylon casualties than human.
Baltar: I definitely do not see him leaving with the Colonials. In the original, Baltar was ini command of a basestar following the RTF. I wondered how they would do that with NuBSG, now I can see it. I imagine Baltar will be following the RTF in a ship of his own with Cylon companions.
Or he'll be on the prison ship. Towards the end of the first (only) season of the original, Baltar had been captured and imprisoned.
Tom Zarek: No, I don't see him dying. Can't kill the most popular recurring guest star. And Zarek is as evil as Ellen Tigh. He's still out for himself. Zarek ultimately only cares about himself and having power. He wants to be the one in charge and if he isn't, he'll resort to violence to cause problesm for those who are in charge. The only saving grace for Zarek is he hates the Cylons worse than humanity.
Ellen Tigh: Does she really love Tigh? I'm thinking so. Ellen has always put me in mind of another character who is simply out for what is best for her, what will profit and benefit her the most. She'll cozy up to, seduce, whatever anyone that can help her live in comfort and luxury and as close to the heart of power as possible.
But she's suprised me this season. It would be in her best interest to cozy up with the Cylons and FORGET Tigh. Who cares if he rots in prison, as long as she has her booze, comforts and sex? But she's working to keep him alive, no matter the cost.
Does this still come back to her own selfish desires? She wants him SO MUCH that she's willing to sell out other humans simply to keep Tigh alive. She doesn't necessarially care about his thoughts and opinions. She loves him but, ultimately, loves herself more. She can't bear the pain of being without him.
Col Tigh: Yeah. Immediately free from prison and right back to the underground. I applaud his sentiments, but question his logic. I kept thinking about the scene from "Red Dawn" where the Soviets let the one kid go after implanting (making him swallow?) a transmitter. If I was Tigh, I would have assumed I was being watched or had some kind of undetectable bug planted inside me.
Anders: What a miricale antibiotics are. Wasn't he on his death bed the end of last season? Wasn't Starbuck away getting drugs when Leoben showed up looking for her? Talk about a recovery.
Gaeta: Gaeta lives. He's the mole, after all. I'm sure there will be some point and some way he reveals that he was helping the Colonials from inside. He'll be lauded a hero.
Cally: I chalked the difference up to a bad editing job.
I see where you come from, thinking she could be a Cylon. It would work, if they want to go that route.
But I don't think she's a Cylon. For Cally to be a Cylon that would mean they would have had to have a Cylon duplicate of her ready to go. They would have had to have the Cylon in the transport to the killing fields.
How long does it take to grow and program a Cylon skinjob from scratch? Unless Cally has always been a Cylon, they would have had to get her specifications,. memories, etc... and implant them in a new model.
Can they replace a real human with a Cylon? Was there a real Boomer, Leoben, etc.. at one point? Or have they all always been Cylons?
Having 2 Callys at the killing fields would be a big risk. The scene from this past episode picked Cally up from the moment she was freed to Tyrol getting her. Didn't Tyrol watch her get cut loose? He kept his eye on her. Switching the two would have been very difficult. Getting Tyrol confused between the two would have been difficult. Too much chance of getting noticed.
For Cally to be a Cylon, the skinjobs would have had to have known about the ambush. Why else make the switch unless it was a planned switch? Why else take the Cylon-Cally to the killing fields?
Cylon Skinjobs: Shouldn't we see all the Cylon models on New Caprica? They seem to have formed a ruling class with all the models having representation. It's convenient that the only skinjobs on the planet are the ones we viewers are already familiar with.
Quite obvious that the skinjobs can tell one individual from another individual of the same model. Is it just the mechanical cylons that can't? That was a major flaw in the plan.
They were talking about the Cylons not being able to distinguish Boomer from the rest. At the time I thought it was bad writing, that they were going to overlook that the others can tell them apart. But then they had her discovered. Immediately. Not bad writing, just an oversite in the planning of the attack.
Still, this ought to mean there should be some way to distinguish the skinjobs from real humans. The more they give these Cylons unique, robotic abilities, the more it should become apparent/easier to build a detection method.
I agree about the Cylon on Cylon violence comment. Seems they were quick to throw that in Caprica 6's face, but then are quick to use the violence themselves.
Speaking of Caprica 6. Why do the Cylons call her that? I know why WE viewers call her that, but I don't think the Cylons should. After all, there were other Cylons on Caprica. Heck, it's their new home away from home.
Of coruse, she was the one that opened the defenses.
Starbuck: Is the baby hers? Why hasn't she killed herself?
Leoben: Absolute Psychotic. He abducts a woman from her husband and community and then expects her to fall in love with him?
What kind of convoluted thinking did the Cylons have? If this is all they wanted, love, they could have had it without destroying the colonies. They could have easily infiltrated society, married, raised families and lived quietly for another 100 years, THEN reveal themselves.
No, instead they nuke the colonies, then want to act all loving and caring.
And what kind of love is it to continue to follow (stalk?) the RTF and set up camp as an occupying force? What kind of love is it to keep people in a prison when the people weren't doing anything wrong?
Sick, twisted love. A need of some kind. A need to be accepted by Humans or kill all the humans.
Obsession.
And this is where the allegory with the US in Iraq breaks down. No matter if you are pro US involvement or against US involvement in Iraq, the allegory drops at this point.
Pro US: Be it WMDs or Saddam oppressing and butchering his own people, the US gave the world an excuse/reason for invasion. What reason did the Cylons have for invading the Colonies? None. Humans weren't living under a dictator and they didn't have any weapons threatening the Cylons.
Doubly true for New Caprica. The invaders came and seized control of a refugee camp. Iraq was much more than a refugee camp.
Against US: Some people feel the war is really about controlling oil production, finishing what Bush started in 1992 or some other personal/political agenda. I can see that with the invasion of the colonies. The Cylons wanted Caprica. They wanted to finish the war they fought 40 years earlier.
But New Caprica? The Humans were RUNNING! They weren't terrorsts (at that point). They weren't going to attack any longer. They ran away. The Cylons followed and seized New Caprica. Why? What was there that they wanted besides the humans? Nothing. It's barely an inhabitable planet.
These are the reasons why humanity would still fight the Cylons. The Cylons didn't approach under a banner of truce or flag of friendship. They didn't open their arms and want peaceful negotiations.
No, they sent in an occupying force. They continued to oppress the humans. They made comments and claims about making improvements, but didn't do anything except oppress the colonists more and more. They continued their sick games of manipulation and control. Abuction, terror, force.
Keep someone under a boot heel long enough and that person either becomes submissive or fights back. In either case, it isn't a peaceful, friendly, equal relationship.
What I wish: There's too much Greek myth refernces. Plenty of other civilizations on Earth to cull from for names and events. How about some Babylonian or Aztec names and myths?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The original series also had Egyptial and Judaic motifs, as well as being th eBook of Mormon in outer space. Wouldn't mind seeing some Norse or Hindu stuff show up.
--Jonah
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
NORSE! That'd be cool. Except for the occasional "Ragnarok" reference, I've not seen much Norse mythology (Ok, there's also Thor and Loki).
Hindu would be intersting. Maybe something besides Shiva or Kali though.
It would have been cool if they'd have taken say 3 or 4 gods and 3 or for legends from each culture and wove those into the Colonial mythos.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Herb : I think you're wrong about the Iraq analogy breaking down. The Cylons claim they're there to make things better for the humans and spread "god's love" (which is maybe a bit like spreading "democracy"?). In reality, they're actually making the humans' condition horrible, but that doesn't seem to bother them. I'd say the Iraq analogy holds pretty strong.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Odd. Before the break, we were talking about parallels between BSG and occupied France. Now it's Iraq. I still say it's mostly because they used the word "insurgents", rather than "resistance" like in the webisodes.
As for Cally, I rewatched that scene today. It does raise a lot of questions. Right when she made her break, Tyrol said "What's she doing?", not something like "What's he doing to her?". They did switch back to the camera on Tyrol right at that moment, but there was nobody else around her right before or after. If she does turn out to be a Cylon, what do you think that will do to Tyrol's mental state, finding out that he's been fracking TWO Cylons! There is the possibility of the replacment for the "real" Cally, but I think that's a slim chance.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Hm... Are we beginning to see some sort of Cylon plot revolving around Tyrol? Boomer and Cally both rocked his boxers. Dean Stockwell was his shrink. Xena and Six need to get their hooks into him, too.
Another thing about that scene. Did anyone TiVo or otherwise record it? I missed the caption naming the extermination site.
And what I think would be awesome: Galactica heroically jumps back alone; and just as Our Heroes are about to get splattered across the upper atmosphere, a Raptor jumps in, sends a "you're right -- that explosion was worth checking out" message to their home ship -- and the Atlantia jumps in to help Galactica dent some chrome. With all the angst and things going from bad to worse to worser, a little audience gratification once in a while would be nice.
--Jonah
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Well, for me the analogy breaks down. The US didn't chase the Iraqis into some desolate waste simply to become an occupying force.
But no analogy is perfect.
Yes, we were talking about France before this season started. But, did the French resistance use these tactics? Suicide bombers?
WWII analogy would work too. Especially with the killing field scene, resistance and the cavalry coming back.
I've not heard of any Iraqi cavalry organized and coming back to save the day.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: NORSE! That'd be cool. Except for the occasional "Ragnarok" reference, I've not seen much Norse mythology (Ok, there's also Thor and Loki).
Hindu would be intersting. Maybe something besides Shiva or Kali though.
It would have been cool if they'd have taken say 3 or 4 gods and 3 or for legends from each culture and wove those into the Colonial mythos.
Well there are 12 tribes, so there's potential for non-Greek/Roman mythology based culture that we haven't seen yet, though I imagine they'd be in the minority. Or you could interpret any mention of Thor and Loki as just being aliases names of the lords of Kobol. Which is consistant with the colonials refering to the lords by both the Greek and Roman versions of their names. I'm not much of a mythology scholar but I think there is a supposed link between the Greek deity Athena and the Egyptian godess Isis.
That reminds me, is anyone else spotting the subtle and not so subtle hints that the 12 Cylon models are actually modelled after the 12 Lords of Kobol?
I'm at work right now so don't have the time to Wiki all the zodiac/olympian/Cylon assosiations, but off the top of my head I'd say Number-6 is an obvious candidate for Aphrodite (assosiated with Libra & Taurus), Leoben Conoy with his prophectic ramblings could be analogous to Apollo (assosiated with Leo). D'Anna Biers' is also very similar to Diana, the Roman name for Artemis (assosiated with Cancer) Goddess of the hunt, which matches with her vocation as a journalist and the fact she's the one looking for Hera.
I also read somwhere that Sharon's middle name is going to be "Athena", Goddess of wisdom, strategy, and war. assosiated with Virgo. Interestingly the Egyptian god Isis is also assosiated with Virgo, so there's an immediate link between Sharon & her child. there's also the bit where it's hinted that Sharon knew much more about what a Athena did on Kobol that isn't in she scrolls.
Some of this is a stretch, but there's enough to make me think the writers are laying in some material ahead of a larger plot.
quote:Well, for me the analogy breaks down. The US didn't chase the Iraqis into some desolate waste simply to become an occupying force.
But no analogy is perfect.
Yes, we were talking about France before this season started. But, did the French resistance use these tactics? Suicide bombers?
WWII analogy would work too. Especially with the killing field scene, resistance and the cavalry coming back.
I've not heard of any Iraqi cavalry organized and coming back to save the day.
I think Iraq is only one amidst a great number of conflicts and occupations that have influenced this storyline, you could easily find parallels in 1940's France, the Wesk Bank, Vietnam, Northan Island, the Hundred Years War and dozens of others. The Iraq-esq elements only stick out because it's actually going on now.
[ October 17, 2006, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
One other mythology reference that I don't think anyone mentioned before is that Roslin said in the previous episode that it was "Mars Day". I don't remember the dialogue, but I believe she did say it was named after the god of war. Interesting that they inserted an element of Roman mythology after all these Greek references.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hm. How about Galen Tyrol? Of course, certain names from the original series have connotations as well, like Apollo, Adama, Cain, Gaius Baltar...
I wonder if they're going to deal with this self-contradiction the Cylons seem to engage in. They condemn suicide bombing, but Doral did exactly that on Galactica. They condemn cylon on cylon violence in almost the same breath that one of them shoots Caprica Six. They seem willing to kill Baltar in order to avoid being responsible for murder. Their entire purpose on New Caprica seems to have been lost somewhere. And I still get a kick out of someone in "Downloaded" commenting that humans don't value life as much as Cylons do, after they've killed twenty billion humans.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And I still get a kick out of someone in 'Downloaded' commenting that humans don't value life as much as Cylons do, after they've killed twenty billion humans."
I think one could argue that that is perhaps another dig at the political right in the US. The "culture of life" that has carried out two wars, killing hundreds of thousands of people, and counting.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:One other mythology reference that I don't think anyone mentioned before is that Roslin said in the previous episode that it was "Mars Day". I don't remember the dialogue, but I believe she did say it was named after the god of war. Interesting that they inserted an element of Roman mythology after all these Greek references.
I think one of the upcoming episodes is titled "Tears of Jupiter", so as they've already reffered to Zeus by name, I think some of the Greek & Roman names might be interchangable.
quote:Hm. How about Galen Tyrol? Of course, certain names from the original series have connotations as well, like Apollo, Adama, Cain, Gaius Baltar...
Well most of that is a reflection of the human culture. With the cylons everything is deliberate, they chose to have 12 models, give them certain names and character traits (though that last on is debatable). Point is there's some subtle hints at a larger story going on linking the Cylons, the (deities formerly known as) Lords of Kobol, the 13th tribe and the Cylon god.
Random guess time:- One of the gods (not one of the 12) had a falling out with the others, took the 13th tribe to Earth, came back to Kobol, caused a dust up, an exodus ensued, after which the Lords abandoned humanity/died/went-all-uptight-and-Vorlon, leaving outcast god to declaire itself the "one true god". After the Cylons became self-aware He wasted no time in putting his godly influence on them.
There's enough there that parallels some of early Judo-Christian mythology (13th lord= lucifer before the fall, Kobol= Eden etc.) to gell with the original BSG's Mormon roots to make it halfway plausible. Later
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It seems to me the New Caprica arc allows a total re-boot of the "Who's a Cylon?" line of questioning.
Prior to this season, it was getting harder and harder to envisage anyone as a Cylon because everyone had done things that would seem to argue against them being a secret skin-job. Granted, they could be under even deeper cover than original Galactica-Boomer was, and not be aware of things they've done while the submerged personality was in control (ie they'd remember to dry themselves off and change clothes after going swimming in the ship's water tanks!) but it was getting to the point where to suddenly "out" them would be to do nothing but cheat the audience.
Now, all bets are off. Anyone who's ever been into the Cylon compound could have been replaced. That is, if the Cylons do actually replace people, which would mean that the "Cylonz 12 Varieties" rule no longer holds - if it ever really did at all. Example: Tigh could be; but the way they did the scene of his release from prison - that one-on-one with Cavill - would tend to suggest otherwise. So far, Ellen Tigh could also be, but I think if she was she'd have done a better job of nicking those papers. And so could Roslin. . .
There are plenty of reasons to suggest that Cally could have always been a Cylon (example: kiling OG Boomer would be to stop her talking, not for betraying Tyrol's trust), but if so they wouldn't have to replace her during the purge scene, would they?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: [QUOTE]One of the gods (not one of the 12) had a falling out with the others, took the 13th tribe to Earth, came back to Kobol, caused a dust up, an exodus ensued, after which the Lords abandoned humanity/died/went-all-uptight-and-Vorlon, leaving outcast god to declaire itself the "one true god". After the Cylons became self-aware He wasted no time in putting his godly influence on them.
Would this 13th Lord look/sound like Patrick McNee? My most fervent wish is for them to work in all the surviving actors from the original series. I swear I know that cast better than all the Treks put together...
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think they did consider having the one from the A-Team appear as the Cylon god as the cliffhanger to the 1st season.
Given what he's said about the show, I doubt they'll have him.
As for the rest, a quick IMDB search shows that only the old Tigh & Cassiopeia seam to be vaguely on the radar.
Speaking of old characters, I wonder why they didn't use the new Boxey for the New Caprica story line. I mean it'd be the first time where there's actually a good reason for him to be around, that is as a resistance member.
Perhaps they felt child soldiers would be one ugly real world war element too many...or they just forgot about the character.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Who knows where he went? Maybe the actor took a break from acting to finish school. In any case, the classroom scenes on New Caprica would have been the place to see him.
As for the Cally Cylon replacment vs. continutity error, my wife pointed out something. Remember later when Sharon tells Tyrol not to let the baby out of his sight (or something like that)? Gives it a whole new meaning if Cally *is* a Cylon.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Actually, didn't Sharon tell Tyrol to tell Cally not to let the baby out of her sight?
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
My most fervent wish is for them to work in all the surviving actors from the original series. I swear I know that cast better than all the Treks put together...