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I'm still not real clear on exactly what the deal was with the Thirteenth Tribe. Anders said that they hadn't discovered resurrection technology, but re-discovered it. How'd they lose it the first time?

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He said they'd been procreating, for all we know they'd been doing that since Kobol where the original Resurrection technology could have been controlled solely by the LoK. By the time they left for Earth it could have been out of use for generations.

This actually strengthens the case for Kara's apparent rebirth being the result of Lordly intervention and may point to the fact that ALL the 13 tribes were originally Cylons. That, or the original Resurrection technology works on humans too.

So....how long before Galactica gets it's own hybrid?

Oh and P.S. Hurray for Boomer! Of all the character on this show, I think she's been dealt the roughest deal. I've been waiting for her to escape back home for years.
 

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Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
 

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Maybe this also explains why Ellen appeared so mysteriously way back in season one... did Cavil arrange to have her belatedly put aboard the fleet? Or did she really just get that "lucky"?

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I think I need to watch this episode once or twice again to fully absorb everything, but they did clear this point up. Ellen said Cavil had her put on the transport ship that lead to her surviving.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Whoa, little red flag just went up!
Daniel the artist = Kara's unseen father the artist?!
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Words fail me there, Kris. That fits perfectly.

Also, the Television Without Pity recaplet sums the whole episode up perfectly: Do not fuck with Pinocchio.
 

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Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 
Thanks for the link, definitely explained alot for me. But I still have one question. The 13th Tribe apparently created their own "toasters" which lead to their downfall, but going by the above explanation, their machines are not the same "toasters" as the ones developed by the other 12 tribes. So what happened to these "toasters", was what happened on Earth a mutual annihilation type deal? Are they still out their somewhere, a possible candidate for the unseen, but felt "third party". And does Hybrid God and his Ye Olde Centurion followers fit in?
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Just watched it again to see if there's anything I missed and I noticed a little bit of subtext between Ellen and Boomer that slipped by me before. Boomer asks her "How do you stand it? Knowing that he hates you for the things you've done?"
Call me dense but I only just realised she was talking about Tyrol and that she's more afraid of the prospect of seeing him again than she is of escaping.
I might watch it a third time, there's quite a lot of layers in here.
 

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Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
So are we up to 13 models of Cylon now?

1. John Cavil
2. Leoben
3. D'anna
4. Simon
5. Doral
6. Uhhh
7. Daniel
8. Sharon
9. Tigh
10. Tori
11. Tyrol
12. Anders
13. Ellen
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Alright. This was probably the most exposition-heavy episode of BSG so far, essentially telling us a lot of history in straight talk instead of obscure prophecies. It may not have been as visually exciting as previous episodes, but OTOH it does answer about three and a half seasons worth of questions. I'm sure I don't remember all the details.

- Ellen offering Boomer that apple.. symbolism alert!

- I think we can claim that The One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken, for whom the Temple was built, is Ellen Tigh herself?

- "We'd been warned" It could be nothing, or it could have been an intervention by a third party?

- "Organic memory transfer came from Kobol, only the Thirteenth Tribe". So the Thirteenth left Kobol earlier than the Twelve, and were the only ones with resurrection technology? I'm guessing it has something to do with the Lords of Kobol and the Jealous God.

- The Earth Cylons could have children, resurrection 'fell out of use'. This could mean that in the current situation, without resurrection, biological reproduction could start again? Cylons become human (again)?

- The Hybrids were created by the robotic colonial Cylons. And robotic Cylons apparently believe in a God? All this happening without apparent influence from Earth or Kobol? Something's up here.

- "Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got? They were different to each of us. I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man. Funny.. no-one, no-one else could see them." Woah there. What's this all about? Is this their original warning about the attack on Earth? Where have we seen 'invisible' people talking to a person before...

I still believe that the 13 Cylons are somehow very directly related to the Lords, and possibly the beginning and end of all this. Cavil is the Jealous God!?

The big questions now:

- What is Kara Thrace? "I've been to Earth, I know where it is". She was brought there, she died and was resurrected, and brought back. By whom?

- Why did both Earth and the colonies apparently build Centurions?

- God and Lords. Why do robots worship God?

- What happened on Kobol?
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Okay.. scratch all that. Here's a pretty good page with discussions:

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-.html

Especially this comments seems to check all the right boxes:

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My understanding of how it goes:

* The original Cylons were created on Kobol well over 3,000 years ago. According to the podcast, the Lords of Kobol were not happy about this and exiled the 13th Tribe into space. At this time the Cyons had resurrection tech.
* On their way to Earth, the 13th Tribe briefly stopped at the Algae Planet and built the Temple of Hopes. They prayed for guidance and received clues or a vision that led them on to Earth. But who did they pray to? If the Lords of Kobol had just kicked them off Kobol, they probably weren't too happy with them. Was it the one rebellious Lord, the 'one whose name cannot be spoken'? He/she may have not have supported the actions of the other Lords of Kobol. Or does the fact that RDM deleted all references to the Lords of Kobol mean that that's not part of the answer?
* A key moment that may have slipped some by: Ellen says that the 13th Tribe backtracked their way to Earth. I wouldn't be surprised that this was a hint (maybe the only one we'll get) that humanity originated on Earth hundreds of thousands of years ago and Earth is the true human homeworld. Or, Ellen meant that the Final Five revisited the Temple when they backtracked their way from Earth to find the 12 Colonies. This bit is unclear.
* At some point the 13th Tribe nailed the ability to procreate. Resurrection technology was abandoned in favour of procreation.
* The Final Five - Anders, Tyrol, Tigh, Ellen and Tory - were scientists trying to recreate resurrection technology. Tyrol contributed a lot of work, but Ellen made the breakthrough.
* Forewarned of the coming holocaust, the Final Five gave themselves the 'organic memory transfer' technology and put a ship in orbit with resurrection chambers on board. When the holocaust took place, they resurrected on the orbiting vessel. Presumably every other Cylon on Earth died.
* The holocaust on Earth and the exiling of the 12 Tribes from Kobol happened almost simultaneously, 2,000 years ago. It's unclear if these events were linked. If the Lords of Kobol exiled the humans for creating the Cylons, it's unclear why they waited 1,000+ years before doing so.
* The Final Five realised that the cycle would perpetuate, so they chose to warn the Twelve Colonies not to create AI, or if they did to treat it well. They didn't have jump drives, so travelled subluminally to the Colonies. At relativistic speeds it took them almost 2,000 years to reach the Colonies, although only a few months or years passed for them. Presumably, not knowing the 12 Tribes had abandoned Kobol, they went via Kobol and then followed the colonists to the Twelve Colonies.
* Note that this puts the Colonies less than 2,000 light-years from Earth (going via Kobol), contradicting the distances given in Rapture (which says that the distance from the Algae Planet to the Ionian Nebula, which were merely two pit-stops on the way to Earth, was a massive 13,000 ly).
* In the podcast RDM makes it clear that he didn't want BSG's backstory to crash into CAPRICA's, and make things on one show not track with the other. For this reason, the backstory of BSG is mostly concerned with the Final Five and the skinjobs. The backstory of the mechanical Cylons and how they 'found God' is left for CAPRICA to explore.
* The Final Five arrived at the Colonies 40 years ago to find a war between the mechanical Cylons and the humans already in progress. The mechanical Cylons had already found God and wanted to recreate themselves in humanity's image, but their experiments with the Hybrids were not going anywhere. The Final Five agreed to help them out on the understanding they stop the war against the humans. The Cylons agreed.
* The Final Five and the mechanical Cylons settled 'a colony', presumably beyond the armistice line, and there created the first skinjob, John Cavil. Cavil helped them build the other models: Leoben, D'Anna, Simon, Doral, Six, Daniel and Sharon.
* Cavil didn't want to be human, but wanted to be the best machine he possibly could be. In a fit of jealousy he destroyed the Daniel model (#7), contaminating the copied bodies so he could not resurrect.
* It is unclear if there were eight humanoid models planned from the start, or if Sharon was introduced only after the entire Daniel line was destroyed. Ellen suspected Cavil was responsible for the Daniels' destruction.
* The Five built the Resurrection Hub, but did not pass on the secrets of how it was built to Cavil. The Resurrection Hub is therefore irreplaceable, unless the Final Five choose to rebuild it.
* Cavil orchestrated an insurrection against the Final Five. He killed them by trapping them in a compartment and suffocating them to death. After resurrecting them, he blocked their memories and put them in the Colonies to see the greed and self-destructive streak of humanity up close. He then began building the Cylon war machine.
* The attack on the Colonies was launched (Cavil claims to have voted against the original attack back in the Season 2 finale, but based on recently revelations this was probably BS) and humanity was reduced to the 50,000 survivors in the Fleet. However, fate, destiny or whatever had led four of the Final Five to survive in the Fleet. Cavil himself ensured that Ellen escaped. Cavil wanted the Five to acknowledge they were wrong and he was right, and was unwilling to kill them until he had that validation.

A third faction is definitely involved:

* A woman appeared to Anders and a man appeared to Tory. Only they could see them, no-one else. Tyrol became convinced he had a chip in his head. The 'messengers' (as RDM terms them) warned them that the apocalypse was coming, giving them the forewarning to rebuild resurrection technology and survive. The messengers are clearly the precursors to Head-Six and Head-Baltar.
* The Final Five had nothing to do with the events that led to the Fleet discoverying the Algae Planet just as the supernova was about to happen. Ellen puts the blame on the One True God, but it is made clear elsewhere in the episode that the Final Five don't believe in the One God, which was a Centurion creation. Ellen may have been playing to Boomer or any Centurion that was around. We know Cavil doesn't believe in the One God either.
* Anders doesn't know anything about what happened to Starbuck either.

Another note from the podcast: Daniel and his backstory will apparently appear in CAPRICA, which seems to suggest he has nothing to do with Starbuck. I'm also going to guess that the #7 model Cylon being called Daniel, and the creator of the mechanical Cylons being called Daniel is not a coincidence.

Posted by: Adam Whitehead | Feb 14, 2009 6:21:13 AM

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The link between #7-Daniel and the "Daniel" from Caprica seems a distinct possibility. That would imply they are setting up several unfinished plot lines to hook us on a new TV show...

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Originally posted by Reverend:
It's been a while since I've read the Greek myths but I'm pretty sure there's some eye plucking and mother/son ickyness in there too.

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That's from the play "Oedipus Rex" by Sophocles. Hence "Oedipus Complex" meaning a desire to take your father's place with your mother (as coined by Freud). In the play, though, neither Oedipus nor his mother knew they were mother and son; when they found out, the mother killed herself and Oedipus plucked out his own eyes.

However, the myths of the Olympians and Titans are interlaced with incest; Zeus and Hera, for example, are both brother and sister and husband and wife. I think there's a lot more of those kinds of things that go on. It's like the Greek gods didn't have the same taboos as humans do. And neither do the Cylons...I wonder if the "Athena" callsign is entirely arbitrary? (But then, what about "Apollo"...)
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
If you've never been to Wiki Frakr, now's a good time to start. They've got this great chart: Make Frak, Not War. Kinda disturbing.
 

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Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
 
After reading a line in the 'Questions' section of the BSG wiki article, about Cavil coming to appreciate the gift of free will, I'm wondering if there's more Judeo-Christian symbology here. What with the Apple and the Creators giving the Cylons Free Will and weak human flesh, and Cavil resenting both and rebelling against his Creators? All we're missing is an Eden from which he was exiled. (And the BSG wiki noted the Cain/Abel parallelisms with Cavil destroying Line Seven.)
 

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
Dan: Earth = Cavil/John's Eden? or the colonies?
 

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Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
 
I don't know; he was never at Earth, I don't think, nor do I think he was ever in the Colonies prior to the Second Cylon War. Maybe it's more of a metaphorical "being-cast-out-from-the-affections-and-closeness-with-your-creator" kind of banishment from Eden.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I wouldn't be looking too closely at the symbolism, looking for 1:1 equivalence. For one thing in this situation "John" is both Adam and Kane and nary an Eve in sight. Unless you want to say that Ellen and Saul are Adam and Eve, but that would make Earth Eden when we know they really came from Kobol. So like I said, best not to look too closely.
 

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Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
 
Well, yeah, that's why I said Eden doesn't have to be an actual *place.* Just the idea of being separated from your Creator is a metaphor for Adam and Eve leaving Eden. And there's a lot of Greek symbolism too, so, I don't think this is a Bible allegory or anything; I'm just looking for *some* kind of clue as to what might happen with the final eps. (I haven't found anything yet )
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
There's a full, if conjectural, timeline which I can't link to on BS Wiki. It occurs to me that if it transpires that Kobol was originally colonised from Earth, then that sorts out the contradiction in the date of when the Temple of Hope/Temple of the Five was built.

One problem though: that timelines states the Five modified the Temple to display their images; but didn't Ellen explicitly deny that? No, I think it's some other force, maybe in collaboration with a surviving Daniel, who's behind that and the Heads and so on.

The name "Daniel" didn't mean anything to Kara, so if he was her father he used a different name.

Or are we focussing too much on the Damiel idea when it could come to nothing and be no more than a retcon to explain a continuity error wherein one of what turned out to be seven Cylon models was numbered Eight?
 

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
 
I thought Kara said something like "Are you sure of the name? Are you sure its Daniel?" I took that as it did mean something to her...
 

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Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
 
I thought she was confirming the name was male because she still thought she might be a Cylon, but it was left open to interpretation.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Yes. Anders' aphasia was still causing him to replace random words in his speech with completely different words, so she was asking if he really meant to say "Daniel", and not maybe "Kara".
 

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