Every year since the show came back, the folks at the "Children in Need" TV charity drive have had something to do with Doctor Who, be it a quick scene or a preview of an upcoming episode. This year they did the latter, showing three minutes of the early part of David Tennant's final story. Spoilers!
Looks like the Doctor finally got around to giving Queen Elizabeth I a reason to hate him. Also, he's installed a remote lock on the TARDIS key!
Mark
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
The brain Ood mentions that "...they are returning, but too late, too late, far too late..." - I wonder who he is referring to? Is it time to open the old book on the Time Lords' return again?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That was my assumption. Also, unless I'm mistaken he mentioned getting married to whats'erface from the library. So no telling how long a span it's been between the Waters of Mars and the next one.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Actually, he mentioned getting married to "the Good Queen Bess". One of the many names of QE1.
Mark
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Which would explain why she is so pissed off at him in "The Shakespeare Code", anyway!
If the Time Lords return then the writers would need to find a reason for the Doctor to continue on his travels, surely? He left Gallifrey because he was bored but that was before he fought in a war, destroyed his planet and his people, and spent a long time as the only remaining Time Lord. If they return, wouldn't he want to go home and live on the planet that he so obviously missed when he was describing it to Martha?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Part 1 has aired. Solid B+ from me - there is a LOT going on in this episode, pretty much ALL of it is setup, and I feel that so much was glossed over and will never be followed up on. It's quite typical of Russel Davies' writing style to increase the stakes so high that basically NOTHING could live up to it - he's threatened the extermination of the Earth several times, the destruction of ALL reality, and now the end of all time (whatever that is). Still, it has an awesome cliffhanger and the long-expected return of new-bad-old guys. Notes:
- The TARDIS has some new tricks: it can lock & unlock using the key as a remote keyfob, and it can "cloak" by moving a second out of sync with the local time stream. This last one may have been picked up in "The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith", where the Doctor was prevented from reaching the TARDIS by exactly that.
- The Book of Saxon? Ressurrection of the Master by using Lucy's DNA, blue goo and a bunch of nutcases willing to sacrifice themselves to bring him back? Lucy trying to kill him off herself by tossing a Molotov at him? This stuff alone was worth an episode!
- I dunno if it was deliberate, but there were at least two locations that have been seen before, which they made little effort to disguise: The stable where teh TARDIS lands is the same one where Jackson Lake kept his stuff in "The Next Doctor", and the underground parts of the Immortality Gate were located in the same basement that Cassandra was hiding out in during "New Earth".
- So Barack Obama has taken over from President Winters, whom The Master killed in "The Sound of Drums". Not sure of the appropriateness of that... And everyone seems to hold him to be the savior of the economy, and that he had an "instant" fix to all our money problems? As if repeated alien invasions helped any...
- How did the Doctor track the Master to the run down industrial area (tm) twice? The Doctor said he could "smell" the Master, which is presumably a new thing since ol' Doc often spent several episodes of the old series cluelsss that a disguised Master was standing next to him.
- Hands-down the best scene in the episode is the quiet dialogue between the Doctor and Wilf in the cafe. It seems this Doctor is really gloomy over the prospect of dying - that he thinks he still dies even if he regenerates, since "some new man" takes over and all that this Doctor is ceases to exist.
- The Doctor is amazed that the Master actually DOES hear four beats, and that he's not just nuts. Obviously there's something to this... James Bond, who turns out to be the Lord President of Gallifrey at the end of the Time War, says it's literally the four beats of the two hearts of a Time Lord.
- And EVERY HUMAN on Earth gets turned into the Master. This means that Sarah Jane and her gang, Gwen and Rhys, the Brigadier, and basically everyone else gets to enjoy being John Simm for a while.
- In the final shot, James Bond is flanked by two people who are covering thier faces. One is obviously the woman in white who has been shepherding Wilf along; the other's hair and body shape looks VERY much like Matt Smith, th eleventh Doctor who has yet to show up. WTF?
Mark
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I don't know....maybe just wishful thinking but I keep thinking that this is possibly Rassilon and the WHite Guardian's doing.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
I watched it and got a solid WTF. Admittedly I was full of Christmas lunch but I still failed to get most of the plot. It eas entertaining but I'm not full of confidence that I will understand it all at the conclusion of part 2.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
The Master.
In a dress.
My mind is blown.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Bit of a wasted opportunity, that. As one of the Who blogs pointed out, you could have had cutaways to the face of John Simm leering from a pram; two John Simms obviously transformed mid-shag (a la They Live). . . Instead we get the revelation that all the inhabitants of a council tower-block look the same. News flash, Russ - they already do.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...I still failed to get most of the plot."
You may have been trying too hard. There really wasn't all that much of a plot. Some people tried to resurrect the Master. His wife sabotaged it, and he came back more insane than before. Some guy found an alien healing device that's supposed to work on whole planets. The Master used it to copy his own template onto the whole planet, turning everyone into copies of himself. End of part one.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Oh yeah, the plots bollocks - it's just a McGuffin to get from David Tennant to Matt Smith. What happens in between is largely going to be filler.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The scene with Wilf stuck in the radiation booth made me cry. I am such a big girl.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also, 906? Ignoring the series long error with the Doctor's age, this means that the 10th doctor was only alive for 6 years at most. No wonder he's so pissed off about dying. Even Colin Baker's Doctor stuck around for at least 50 years.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Three years that felt like fifty. . .
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
With any luck, now that Davies is gone, someone will write a line where the Doctor admits he's been lying about his age, just to fix all that.
So, Rassilon... stopped being dead... at some point... somehow? I guess we don't get to know what that was about? Or who that lady was? Or what the other dissenter even looked like?
Oh, but we get fifteen minutes of the Doctor flying around visiting every major character from the past five years of the show, while his regeneration lets its engine warm up, I guess? Great.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Someone's pointed out that it's similar to humans dying of radiation poisoning - called the walking ghost phase, where people can look and act normally for days while their insides turn to mush. He knew what was going on, and used the beginnings of the manifesting regeneration energy to keep himself looking presentable while he went off to get his "reward".
And really, this has already happened to the Doctor, when he got a fatal dose of radiation on Metebelis Three in his third incarnation's final story "Planet of the Spiders". He was alright enough until he got from the caves to the TARDIS, but by the time he arrived back on earth (however long THAT took, relatively speaking - he said he got lost in the time vortex) he was visibly weakened and collapsed right after opening the door.
Next up, Rassilon - I don't think this needs much explanation. He wouldn't be the first Time Lord resurrected for their war, since they brought the Master back too, and Rassilon's spirit (or something) has been active in the Death Zone on Gallifrey, along with with his preserved body, for eons. Given what we've seen of the nigh-mystical Gallifreyan technology and natural ability, I see no reason why Rassilon could not be reanimated and given his old job back. He was known through the original series to have been a particularly nasty guy, so at some point it was decided that his skills could be useful in winning the war. That, or the nature of the war itself could have somehow brought him back in the first place, since it was affecting the time lines of every world and race involved.
Finally, the identities of the two "weeping angel" posed people was apparently a deliberate mystery left open for subsequent stories. No clue whatsoever is given as to the identity of the male figure, but fandom analysis of Russell Davies' writing style and frequent mashing up of similar themes between characters strongly suggests that this woman is to the Doctor what Donna is to Wilf and Sylvia - his daughter or granddaughter, meaning that it could have been Susan. The other alternative would be Romana (again for emotional or thematic similarities), which would make a certain amount of sense too, but I personally wouldn't want to accept Romana regenerating into someone who wasn't hot.
And could the Time Lords have survived the war after this? Sure, there's a ton of ways out. I for one can easily imagine a bunch of dissenting Time Lords hopping into their TARDISes and buggering off while Rassilon was spitting away at the Doctor and Master, before Gallifrey went back to its fate. We'll see if this (or whatever else) happens any time soon, though I strongly doubt we will.
As for the rest, I loved it overall. A grand and fitting end to the Tenth Doctor's years and overall story. I'd previously written on Flare over four years ago (yikes!) that the dark and moody Ninth Doctor's incarnation was a consequence of his actions in the Time War, and that the Tenth was his way of letting go of the horrible things he did and getting on with his life. Here, we see that while this may have been true, the events that have been haunting him have truly come full circle. We see that the Time Lords under Rassilon had evolved to become genuine tyrants willing to sacrifice all of time and space to survive, and that as such the Doctor was tragically justified in committing multiple genocides to keep that from happening.
So once more he regenerates, but THIS time it isn't to save the universe or to atone for what he did in the past - it's to save one man who had unknowingly put himself in harm's way by saving someone else. And at its core, THIS is what the Doctor will always do: he will go out of his way to HELP PEOPLE who deserve it.
But by doing so, he isn't being a blind slave to prophecy as the Ood and various mad old women have been saying for two years now. He makes a choice to exchange Wilf's life in exchange for his own. He's done it before (saving Peri's life in "The Caves of Androzani") and he'd do it again. This is the Doctor we know, and as much as this particular incarnation comes to dread his ultimate fate, he knows it's his choice and accepts it. That's what makes the whole thing beautiful for me.
The story itself? Way over the top, stakes way too high, and with another buildup to an epic battle for the universe which lasts less than ten minutes when it happens. This is old hat to Davies, and it really just shows that his writing time on the show is done. As such, it really comes down to the character and emotional beats, which are dead on. I laughed, I railed, and I got misty eyed with this story, which means that it's a job well done IMO. The acting was incredible, with a wonderful guest cast seeing the Tenth Doctor through his final story, and cameos aplenty from past companions and alien races to keep fans giddy and talking for months.
It's a grand, fitting end to an era which includes a tremendous actor for the role in a show brought back from the dead, for a modern audience by a production team led by a man with a clear vision for a contemporary SF show. It worked, and Tennant, Davies and his team get credit up the wazoo for it. Now it's up to a new actor (young, but with the blood and talent for it) and another proven producer (I loved Jekyll and Coupling plus his stories for Doctor Who so far - he'll do fine) to continue a tradition of excellent British sci-fi. The bar has been set VERY high, and I fully expect it to be cleared.
Mark
PS - Seen the next series TRAILER yet? Freakin' awesome!!
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
WOOHOO! I called it on Rassilon. Now where did the Master go? AND....does he STILL have that drum beat in his head?
I also like how this whole thing was tied to the four beats and that just happens to be the Doctor Who theme. Kind of clever write in of what has existed for years.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I agree with Mark. The story was the same old big end of world nonsense we usually get, but that wasn't the point. The point of the whole thing started with Wilf's knocking on the door, and then the Doctor's rant against the universe before he gives up his own life to save the life of someone "not remotely important". That mad me cry. A little. In a manly way.
The other explanation for the two dissenting Time Lords is that they were his parents. I'd prefer it to be Susan or Romana, but I can take it being a mystery. And as for Rassilon... it doesn't have to be him. It could just be someone with the same name.
How spitty was everyone in this, BTW? James Bond was spitting everywhere. The Tenth Doctor was spitting during his rant, and then the Eleventh Doctor got in a good gob just after regenerating.
Tennant's face is just so sad before he starts to regenerate, I want to give him a hug. Poor guy.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
How many seasons (series) have there been in the new era now? I really need to get the DVDs. I've felt like I've been missing out for years now.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The fifth season starts in April-ish. It's really weird how the BBC announces the actual start date of a given series only a few weeks before it actually airs, whereas on this continent we know months in advance when to schedule ourselves around the TV. Oddly, many are saying that the "fifth" season is going to be marketted as the "first season of the new Doctor Who series", whatever that means. I'm just glad it wasn't a total reboot of the series as some were suspecting.
There have been four full seasons of this show, plus a Christmas special every year and this year's partial season of four special episodes (which for the BBC does not count as a full season). In terms of R1 DVD releases, there are four so far and in February we'll get a box of the 2009 specials plus the 2008 Christmas story.
And the spitting? Dalton spits because he's REALLY OLD. Tennant spits because he's acting REALLY HARD. And Smith was spitting, according to the commentary, because one of the explosions on the set during the take accidentally filled his mouth with TARDIS debris. Instead of cutting the take, the actor just spat the stuff out and kept going. What a guy.
Mark
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
It's quite possible that the Time Lords used their technology to resurrect Rassilon, but isn't it also possible that the Doctor was just using the name as an insult, to liken this warlike and bloodthirsty President to one of the shadier figures of Gallifrey's past? A bit like calling someone Hitler?
For the record I prefer the resurrection angle but my first impression was that the Doctor was hurling the name at him like an insult.
As for the regeneration itself, any thoughts on why it was so violent and did such damage to the TARDIS? After all, three other regenerations have taken place in the console room in the new series and none of them did any damage whatsoever. Was it a result of the radiation absorbed at the mansion, or was it so violent because the Doctor had been holding back the process and fighting it for a while? At first I thought it was just bad luck that his arms happened to be pointing at the doors and the console, but the aborted regeneration in "Journey's End" fired directly at something and didn't harm it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:It's quite possible that the Time Lords used their technology to resurrect Rassilon, but isn't it also possible that the Doctor was just using the name as an insult, to liken this warlike and bloodthirsty President to one of the shadier figures of Gallifrey's past? A bit like calling someone Hitler?
Not a bad idea, though I'm fairly certain Dalton was credited as Rassilon. As others have said, given there sheer level of power the Time Lords had and the utter mess the timeline was probably in by the end of the war, I don't see much of a problem with that being him.
One thing that was a little unclear; was there any particular significance to that gauntlet he was wearing? I'm not really familiar with the majority of Dr. Who canon, aside from the "modern era" I've only seen a smattering of episodes, most of which being Tom Baker's.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd go for the "holding out for so long" angle. Compared to the 9th-10th regeneration, his face takes longer to change and in fact the whole process seems much more drawn out. I like the "walking dead" part explaining why he seemed fine, but he was definitely fighting it since at least the point where he saw Rose. The 9th Doctor only seemed to hold it off for long enough to say his (fantastic) goodbye to Rose, whereas the 10th said at least that one goodbye, then crawled to the Tardis, set it flight, and has a wander around before giving in. For what it's worth, the not always terribly well written Doctor Who wiki seems to be fluctuating back and forth on the "radiation build up" and "holding the process back" reasonings. I'd suggest that the radiation he absorbed should probably be less than that found in the Time Vortex, but hey, each to his own.
I loved how they showed in great detail on Doctor Who Confidential the difficulty in filming the collapsing Tardis, especially as they had their star stood with his arms akimbo while things collapsed around him. Mainly because in the final show his face was completely obscured by regeneration energy. I could have stood there and you wouldn't have noticed.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Dalton is just credited as "Lord President" on part 2, not Rassilon. I agree that resurrection is still the likeliest explanation of the name though - if the Time Lords were desperate enough to consider ending creation itself to win the war, bringing back Rassilon probably wouldn't cause them too much grief. Bit hard on Borusa though, stuck in a paving slab in the Death Zone, watching the guy who stuck him there wander off in a new body.
One point of interest about the war - the Doctor mentions some of the participants in the last phase (was one of them the Scar of Degradations, or the Skaro Degradations?) and namechecks the Nightmare Child. Last time he/she/it was mentioned, the Doctor said it swallowed Davros' command ship, which would seem to point to it not being on the Dalek side. Granted, the point could be that the war unleashed forces that killed either side, but it was interesting to hear it mentioned again.
Regarding an earlier point about Time Lords taking advantage of Gallifrey's brief re-emergence to hop it in some TARDISes, that might well be the case. A Blue Peter competition closed in November, which asked entrants to design a TARDIS console for the new series...so at one point, another TARDIS can be expected to appear with another Time Lord aboard.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Consider yourslef lucky. Had *I* been the one standing there, they'd be wondering why the Doctor suddenly got shorter and more stocky.
I think the general explanation for the TARDIS falling apart is the massive amounts of radiation he sucked in. The Doctor mentioned that it was in the amount of 500,000 rads. By comparison, the Chernobyl disaster that laid waste to the whole area around its reactor was 10,000 rads per hour at its worst - so the doctor got fifty times Chernobyl in the space of a few seconds. Releasing it into the console room in addition to the regeneration energy is probably not that safe for its organic superstructure!
Also, the commentary said it was Rassilon. So there. The gauntlet has no precedent in Gallifreyan backstory, though most of Rassilon's stuff had some power to it: the Crown of Rassilon, the Sash of Rassilon, the Staff of Rassilon, the Tomb of Rassilon, the Game of Rassilon, etc. One wonders what the Boxers of Rassilon can do...
Mark
[ January 03, 2010, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
^I'm sure they pale next to the awesome power of the trouser press or the tea & coffee making facilities of Rassilon.
I liked how there was an acknowledgement of the lasting significance of the Family of Blood/John Smith story. With all the cameos at the end, I did wonder if Sally Sparrow or River Song would get a look-in, then I realised that they're not RTD's creations and that Moffat may have something in mind there. From the preview at least, it looks like the weeping angels (which I think Rassilon mentioned) are defiantly back.
Speaking of which, my guess for the identity of the old woman/rebel Time Lord appearing to Wilfred would also be Susan, however I suppose it could be any similarly related person. His mother for example, or his daughter (Susan's mother), his wife (Susan's grand-mother) etc.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
I dunno if any of the Time Lords could have escaped. Breaking the link seemed to suck everything back into the Time War.
I'm far more concerned with whatever happened to the Master. Snacking on Rassilon, perhaps? Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The fandom notes a casting call for "The Doctor's Mother" last year, which is apparently this part. So while only credited as "The Woman" in the actual show, the part was apparently cast as mum. It'll remain open to interpretation for a long time,
I'm sure. Likewise, I'm sure it was "the Skaro Degredations". I highly doubt we'll ever know what that was for sure, but I'm willing to bet the Daleks of the time were willing to make concessions on using non-Dalek troops on the way to their goal of ultimate racial purity. They once used the Ogrons, after all.
And River Song *is* back. She appears several times in the preview, and there are pictures of her filming her episode(s) on the interweb. Here's one of my favorite Who spoiler sites, by the way:
Mark
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
I expect that we won't see the Master (or more to the point, John Simm as the Master) again.
Given RTD has stated the he's effectivly "wiped the slate clean" and the ending essentially wrapped up the stories for all of RTDs creations I'm not sure that we'll see the Time Lords again either.
But, does that mean the end of the Daleks as well, for good? I mean, it was nice to see them the first time and then as the main antagonists at the end of the first series (all though at the time I thought it would have been nice to see Davros). It was also very clever to not see them again until the end of season 2. But we were kind of expecting them by season 3 and then in 'The Stolen Earth' I was so fed up of RTD raising the stakes AGAIN that their appearence was just marred by the episode. But in 'Journeys End' all seemed lost and Davros was destroyed! And now this! Is it the end for the Daleks?
Well, no it seems, as they appear in the new seasons trailer. RTD did like the whole "MORE CRISIS, WE NEED MORE CRISIS, RAISE THE STAKES TO LUDICROUS AND TURN UP THE EMOTION TO ELEVEN" a bit too much I think. Still, witout him there'd be even less to talk about on Flare so I'd say he's still winning.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Given RTD has stated the he's effectivly "wiped the slate clean" and the ending essentially wrapped up the stories for all of RTDs creations I'm not sure that we'll see the Time Lords again either.
The Time Lords weren't creations of RTD, he just borrowed them. I think there is enough "wiggle room" in the ending to allow the Time Lords to appear again, either coming from Gallifrey and the Time War era, or having been in hiding after the war's end (much like the Master). Basically, they'll come back if Moffat decides there's a good enough reason. If not, then they stay locked away.
I do think that the crisis element needs to be toned down a bit. As "The End of Time" showed, a sacrifice for one unimportant old man can mean just as much as a sacrifice for all of creation. Hopefully the new series will go in this direction, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
So, how long do you think it will take for the inevitable "When is Matt Smith leaving?" speculation to start up?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
And isn't this theoretically the Doctor's last regeneration? Or have they already set up a way around that?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
twelve regen's should mean 13 Doctors.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
nevermind... i thought it was 10 regens... just looked it up.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Which opens the whole can of worms about whether or not the "Journey's End" regeneration counts as one against his total! This is why I think they will have to bring the Time Lords back at one point - assuming the show continues on for a while, they're going to run out of regenerations at one point and will need to extend his run somehow.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe with no Timelords, this doesn't count anymore, I don't know why it wouldn't - just thought I'd put it out there. Can anyone give a rundown how the total number of regenerations was mentioned in the old series? The Master has regenerated again in the new series even though he supposedly had run out of regenerations. I reckon they should do a Timewar movie with the 8th, 9th and maybe the 10th Doctor.
Just finished watching the shows. Liked it. Could have been maybe a little less 'silly' with the entire world being the Master. I assume that the old woman was the Doctor's Mother. There was the whole thing about Wilf being proud to be the Doctor's Father and she appears to Wilf. Would have been a nice touch. Also makes you wonder how she managed to make a connection to Wilf through the time-lock? Loved the ending when the Doctor was claiming his reward. Oh the 'real' knocking four times was great - didn't see that coming.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I remember in the made-for-TV movie thing awhile back the 7th Doctor mentions the number of regenerations specifically and tells the girl how many times he's done it.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The Master has regenerated again in the new series even though he supposedly had run out of regenerations."
The Master had run out of regenerations by the time he first appeared in the '70s. He's had four or five incarnations since then. The Master has never had trouble finding ways around the regeneration limit.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"I don't wanna go."
There were so many things in these two episodes that I liked. It was nice that the most critical parts of the feature involved only the Doctor and Wilfred. The look on the Doctor's face as he heard the four knocks, after just having thougt he was in the clear, was sublime. I was glad that the Master finally got to do one good deed, and for the right reason. "It will be...spectacularrr!"
When I saw the last episode with the Ninth Doctor, I didn't feel for a new one, I wanted it to stay the same. Over the years, Tennant has really changed my mind in that regard, it felt like he threw himself into it body and soul, became a lot more ingrained in the character than Eccleston, who just did a gig (although very well). I've really enjoyed the character, supporting cast and writing of the Tenth Doctor run, I've been constantly surprised at how they time and time again make the season enders wrench your gut and shed its coat for something new. All the while keeping it playful (the Doctor/Rose/Alien Scooby Doo-chase playing out before the eyes of Elton Pope). I thought "The waters of Mars" was ok, but the really worthwhile bit of the whole episode was at the very end, when it dawned on the Doctor that he'd gone too far. It was a great segway into "The end of time", with the Doctor actually humbled and in effect expecting the Ood present to pass judgement on him, asking it "Will I die now?". Really gonna miss him.
Here's a random pick of my favorite quotes from the Tennant-run (simply by merit of being the first ones that came to mind):
DW: Oh, I'm - I'm dazed and confused. I've been chasing this... this wee naked child over hill and over dale. In't that right, ya... timorous beastie? Rose: Ooch, aye! I've been oot and aboot. DW: No, don't do that. Rose: Hoots mon! DW: No really, don't. Really.
/
DW: *using sonic screwdriver to amplify pipe organ* We need to turn it up to eleven.
/
Cassandra (in Rose's body): Oh my God... I'm a Chav!
/
Cyberman: Daleks, be warned; you have declared war upon the Cybermen. Dalek Sec: This-is-not-war. This-is-pest-control. Cyberman: We have five million Cybermen. How many are you? Dalek Sec: ... ... Four. Cyberman: You would destroy the Cybermen with four Daleks? Dalek Sec: We-would-destroy-the-Cybermen-with-one-Dalek. You-are-superior-in-only-one-respect. Cyberman: What is that? Dalek Sec: You-are-better-at-dying. *shoots Cyberman*
/
The Doctor: So when it comes right down to it, why did you come here? Why did you that? Why? I'll tell you why. Because it was there. Brilliant! Excuse me, er, Zac wasn't it? Zachary Cross Flane: That's me. The Doctor: Just stand there cos I'm going to hug you. Is that alright? Zachary Cross Flane: Suppose so. The Doctor: Here we go. C'mon then [the Doctor hugs Zac] The Doctor: Human beings. You are amazing. Hah! Thank you. Zachary Cross Flane: Not at all. The Doctor: But apart from that you're completely mad. You should pack your bags, get back in that ship and fly for your lives.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Can anyone give a rundown how the total number of regenerations was mentioned in the old series?
I think that the regeneration limit was first mentioned back in the Tom Baker days, in "The Deadly Assassin". According to that serial, they get 12 regenerations (13 incarnations in total) and then they die. There was even a Time Lord in the Colin Baker era that committed suicide by triggering a 13th regeneration.
The Master's regenerations in the new series are a result of him having been resurrected by the Time Lords - they gave him a new Time Lord body, presumably with a whole new set of regenerations to go with it. Whether he regenerated before he became Yana or if that was his first "new" body wasn't made clear, neither was the whereabouts of his TARDIS (which would have had the chameleon arch fitted to turn him human).
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:The Master had run out of regenerations by the time he first appeared in the '70s.
Not quite. It was established in "The Deadly Assassin" that the Master had run out of regenerations, which was why he looked like a walking corpse. However, it was never clear whether corpse-Master was the Roger Delgado incarnation, or a later incarnation after Delgado. Obviously he was played by another actor in prosthetics, but that was only because Delgado was dead by then. Also, he didn't sound like Delgado either, but that was probably because he didn't have lips
I kinda got the impression that the whole "Mr. Saxon/Master no. Six" thing takes into account that there were these six separate Masters:
1. Roger Delgado 2. Corpse-Master 3. Anthony Ainley 4. Eric Roberts 5. Yana 6. Saxon
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Yup, thats what the production crew have said in the past about the Mister Saxon annogram.
We know that one Time Lord can steal regeneraions from another - that was the Masters plan in the tv-movie.
By the way, I still have Eric Roberts as the 13th Master. I don't recall it ever being said which regeration Roger Delgardo was, but we know the Corpse-Master (who may be Delgardo's Master) was at the end of his 13th body. This then body snatched a scientist to become Anthony Ainley (who my friend once clean bowled in a charity cricket match, so he says).
Ainleys Master is last seen battling the 7th Doctor at the end of Survival (the last regular serial in 1989). The Master (presumably Ainley) is then killed (perhaps by the Daleks at trial for some reason) and his remains given to the 7th Doctor to take to Galifrey.
The Master has cheated death somehow and turned into a mucus Goa'uld, which takes over Eric Roberts body - so still the 13th Master.
The Master is then regenerated by the Time Lords themselves to serve in the Time War, presumably giving him a new set of 13 lifes. So where do these come from?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, who else here liked the Doctor Who movie? I really enjoyed Paul McGann's portrayal of The Doctor. I also REALLY loved the interior of his TARDIS.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
*raises hand*
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I thought it was pretty good. I'm glad they kept it in continuity and didn't ignore it. Actually, for a split-second there when Rassilon was talking about the Doctor, I thought we might get a quick cameo from McGann. Alas.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Yeah it was good. I didn't like the chase on the police bike or Eric Roberts portrayal of the Master, but otherwise it was good. Epsecially showing Sylvester McCoy at the start.
It failed because of the difficulty establishing the fact that he was the Doctor and then Paul McGann was - you kinda had to be in on it I think.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:By the way, I still have Eric Roberts as the 13th Master. I don't recall it ever being said which regeneration Roger Delgado was, but we know the Corpse-Master (who may be Delgado's Master) was at the end of his 13th body. This then body snatched a scientist to become Anthony Ainley
Again, it's very confusing. We only know for a fact that the corpse-Master was his 13th body and final regeneration. Even though he stole Ainley's body, he's still the 13th incarnation.
However, what happened to him between the events of "Survival" and the Doctor Who movie is anyone's guess. The Master seen at the beginning of the movie doesn't look like Ainley; perhaps he stole another body? And if it was a Time Lord's body, did he get new regenerations? By the time he steals Eric Roberts's body, we really don't know what's going on with his life-cycle.
quote:The Master is then regenerated by the Time Lords themselves to serve in the Time War, presumably giving him a new set of 13 lives. So where do these come from?
In "The Five Doctors" we learn that the Time Lords can give the Master a new set of regenerations. There is no indication at all as to how they can do this, but the Master takes their word as gospel. (Which makes one think: if the Time Lords could do this, then why hasn't the Master already done it?) Very ambiguous.
quote:...Anthony Ainley (who my friend once clean bowled in a charity cricket match, so he says).
When I was a kid, Ainley and Janet Fielding were guests at a convention in Baltimore. Ainley walked right past me and I didn't even recognize him, mainly because at the time he had gained weight and was wearing this ridiculous Uncle Sam costume. I of course was expecting a thin guy in a black Master costume. However, he was very nice and confessed to loving Americans (he wore the costume out of respect, not humor).
I also liked the movie, but I also can understand why an English fan might not. I bought the region 2 DVD and made a region 1 copy to watch.
P.S. One more thing: On the subject of "The Deadly Assassin," at least three Time Lords are killed (the President, Runcible, and Goth), yet none of them regenerate. Huh? I find it hard to believe that all three were in their final incarnations, which would have been the only reason why they didn't regenerate. Unless they all did it after the Doctor left?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think it was said in the new ones that a time Lord can die if he/she is killed suddenly. In fact I'm pretty sure that's what happens in 'Turn Left'. More than that, regenerating is an act of will so its meant to save a dying Time Lord, not a corpse. Remember that the Master refused to regenerate the last time after his wife shot him. Again, I'm not a big continuity buff, but I do recall the McCoy/McGann regeneration was essentially interrupted by the paramedics, which is what lead to the memory loss. So he must have started the process just after being shot and, like with the 10th Doctor, it took a while to fully kick in.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
The only problem with that is that Runcible had time to walk around with a knife sticking out of his back while telling everyone how sorry he was, before falling on his face dead. Shouldn't he have rather been taking that time to start regenerating? I really don't think he would have voluntarily refused to regenerate.
(I'm just being silly with this; obviously he died because it was supposed to be a dramatic scene. I just find it funny that the one episode that reveals the whole regeneration aspect of a Time Lord's lifespan is then completely nullified by three people dying without regenerating.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Reverend:
Actually, no, but don't worry. Lot's of people have made that mistake. It's not the shooting that kills off Doctor No 7, it's the operation afterwards. He even warns Grace that if she attempts the operation she'll kill him.
The official story is that the medication in his body is what delayed the regeneration. So presumably it started when his hearts were stopped, but it had to overcome the drugs, which is why it wasn't apparent for several hours.
The Time Lords do have a weapon called a Staser, which prohibits regeneration and kills a Time Lord outright. Along those lines, perhaps there was some poison on the knife which could also stop regeneration? I'd assume that a Time Lord assassin (especially a deadly one, *cough*) would know about weapons that could stop the person regenerating. Otherwise he'd have to stand there stabbing the person 12 times in a row.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Naw, they woulnd't do that because they wouldn't want to confuse the viewer with too many new elments, nor have too many people ask "who's that guy? He was the Doctor? Which one? Was it before the ninth?" and so on. We only need to deal with one Doctor in this story, and his successor.
Speaking of which, check out Blogtor Who for big awesome pics of the new guy!
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just got me a copy of the 1996 Movie. I'm going to enjoy it again! (Well hopefully it will still pull up 14 years later).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Liked most of it, didn't like some of it. Loved the Doctor. Hated the console room (except for the actual console, which if you look closely shares many elements with the new series console).
I really wish Fox would have gone with a series. Instead, we got (puke) Sliders. OTOH, it may have saved Doctor Who from the slow slide into oblivon that Sliders took...
Mark
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I liked McGann, but most of it was rubbish. I sometimes think John Simm was miscast, but he's nothing compared to Eric Roberts.
It does have one great bit of proper Doctor-ishness in it, though, when the Doctor tries to get away from the cop by stealing his gun and threatening to shoot himself.
I've not listened to any of the audio plays. I might try them.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Rassilon mentions the "weeping angels of old" - was he meaning the statues seen in 'Blink'? I don't know why but I just thought - like everything seems to be on Gallifrey - it was just a fancy title given to desentors who hadn't gone crazy with the Time War, who still upheld the beliefs of old Gallifrey. That they were weeping at what had been lost. When I first saw them standing there with their faces covered it was a bit of a shock - for a split second. It was a nice touch (I mean not just to have it as the woman/Doctor's mother being there for most of the action) but just as a stylistic 'alien/noble/Gallifreyan' type of... idiosyncracy. That they can stand there behind the Lord President as a silent reminder. Nice touch I thought.
Which then makes me wonder - if it IS a reference to the 'weeping angels' - and they are older than time itself - did they have some connection to Gallifrey and Timelords originally.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK I just re-watched "Blink" - how AWESOME is that episode!?! I think he does mean them. I wonder if they have a connection with the Time Lords some how - seeing as they obviously have a connection to timetravel. Maybe he just mentions them - like the Doctor mentions other things everynow and then. Interesting though that the two of them stand behind the Lord President in such a stance.
Awesome episode! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Written by... Wait for it... New showrunner Steven Moffatt! And we haven't seen the last of the Weeping Angels, pun intended...
The fun part of "Blink" was that the Doctor was barely in the episode (and Martha even less so), and yet it managed to be ABOUT him anyway. Msterful writing all the way, and I hope to see more come April, where Moffat will be writing six of the thirteen episodes. Oddly, I wonder if that means there will be no Christmas special this year, since it's usually commissioned as part of the preceeding series...
Mark
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
A little late to the party, having just watched this special now. The only thing I have to add to the conversation is the question of the death gauntlet; was I the only one that picked up right away that its the mate to the life gauntlet from Torchwood?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well we already saw both gauntlets during Torchwood's run. Wasn't it called the Ressurection Glove? Nice idea though! Stuff from Gallifrey falling through space and time??
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