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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

OK, here's something I thought of in the shower this morning...

At the End of ANH, Vader had never seen Luke (the adult Luke anyway), only fel his connection to the Force while he was on his attack run.

At the beginning of ESB, Vader was looking for him.

At the end of ESB, Vader knows that Luke is his son.

My questions are threefold: 1) Did Vader know he had kids before he "felt" the adult Luke? 2) If he did, did he know that Luke was his son before ESB 3)If he didn't know that Luke was his son or that he had children (he didn't know that Leia was his daughter in RofJ until Luke gave it up), when and how did he find out?

I've heard that there is expanded material on this, but I've never read it. Anyone got the inside skinny on this?

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"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
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Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :

I'm more concerned about the fact that you were thinking about this in the shower.

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God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Random things come to me when I'm lathering up...

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Vader knows what you did last summer....

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"The Guide says that there is an art to flying...or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Life, the Universe and Everything

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Vader wants YOU!

As a matter of fact, I've thought about this too.

IIRC, Leia and Luke being Vader's kids wasn't set in stone until between the first and second movie. In fact, the script first made Vader say that Obi-Wan was Luke's father. And I think the Leia thing was an addition as well, late in the scriptwriting of TESB, when Luke had to abandon his studies to go play with the big boys...

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

If we pretend that Leia WAS Vaders daughter in thew first movie, and C3P0 was his own build, then it's strange that he didn't detect the emotional bonds in the air...
If Leia indeed was a potential Jedi, as Yoda implyed with the "No...there's another...", then I think Vader should've felt the concentration of her force when interrogating her in ANH.
She probably used the focus and psychological strength of the force when resisting a professional imperial interrogation droid.

As for threepio, well maybe there were so many protocol droids after him that Vader lost track of that particular unit.
Anakin couldn't have built him from scratch, it must've been an industrial design even in those days.

I mean, the little shit isn't Rain Man. Building a droid with fully functional parameters, ethics and language banks (six million languages?) can't be compacted into a single invention. It takes years to pull of a thing like that from scratch.

That would be like saying that one man or team alone invented the computer. If you look at a motherboard, all the separate components were invented individually and put under patent accordingly.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I agree, there are whole bunch of C3PO in eavy movie. So either rebuilt one that was junked by his owner "Flying Cartoon Fly" or he just bought a used one and rebuilt the thing to fit his needs.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

You can see the copper body that will eventually end up on 3P0 in Watto's shop. Plus there was one on the Trade Fed ship. TC-14 IIRC.

There area alot of people that are stong with the Force. Just because he sensed that in Leia, wouldn't have necessarily lead him to believe that she was his daughter. His surprise that Luke had a sister in RotJ made it clear (at least to me) that, at that point, he was only aware of his son.

Which means, he must not be aware that Amidala is pregnant in Ep 3.

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

So Vader will be fucking a girl twice his age...

Vadrer was suprised that Luke had a sister, so he was not aware of it before then. I would like to believe that after the Death Star's destruction, Vadrer researched who the pilot was and found out his name. Vader then put the fact that Luke's last name is Skywalker like his, great pilot, and strong with the force.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Moreso, Vader only caught that Luke had a sister. He didn't know it was Leia or he'd known she would've killed herself twice as fast as Luke if faced with Sith assimilation.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

So in conclusion...

1) Did Vader know he had kids before he "felt" the adult Luke?

No, it's even stated (somewhere my memory is currently eluding) that if Vader ever knew he had any children, he would betray the Emperor (either through returning to the Light Side or turning his kid(s) to the Dark Side and taking over the Empire).
A small side note- in the books, the Emperor's use of the Dark Side was so severe, he had to have his body repeatedly cloned to repair the damage, not even bacta (which in the books is greatly exaggerated as a "miracle" cure to nearly anything) couldn't fix him. This would mean he wanted to rule for eternity and not have Vader succeed him (most likely through their normal method, kill the master, become the master), which would undoubtly happen if any other force sensitive opponents were alive, especially his children. He wanted Vader on a leash, close by but not needing to bite. Vader could have everything he wanted to the point of supreme power over the Empire.

2) If he did, did he know that Luke was his son before ESB

Research most likely in Imperial databases, and any spies/news that came to him or through interrogation of captured Rebels (if any).

3)If he didn't know that Luke was his son or that he had children (he didn't know that Leia was his daughter in RofJ until Luke gave it up), when and how did he find out?

Between ANH and ESB, he found out that he had a son through the methods answered in question 2, and wanted to turn him to the Dark Side and become the new Master (which every Sith aspires to) and his son as an apprentice.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Yah, I agree with all that. Wasn't Mara Jade sent to kill Luke during the events in RotJ because the Emperor was beginning to sense that Vader wanted to take over with Luke as his number 2?

And, whoever said it is right, VAder didn't realise that Leia was the sister he sensed from Luke. But research probably would have revealed that eventually.

Which brings up another question: Leia's name was changed to Organa, that of her adoptive parents. Why wasn't Luke's changed to conceal his identity? I mean, some people from Tatooine must have remembered the pod racing little squirt named Skywalker...

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Sometimes the best places to hide are in plain view.

Besides, Mos Espa could've been on the other side of Tatooine.

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, I think it's obvious that Obi Wan chose Tatooine to hide Luke out on because Vader would probably be reluctant to ever go there again. He probably will have some sort of deep seeded emotions for that dusty little planet by the end of Ep 3 if not Ep 2. I still think changing Luke's last name to Lars would've been a good idea except for the fact that it would've sounded dumb.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Given that Leia is Vader's daughter, why didn't he sense any form of force in her when he saw her twice in ANH, and once in ESB. Certainly Vader would have noticed.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well we can wish they'd made space for the Leia/Vader development as much as we'd like, but it will remain the same. She neither mourned nor contemplated the fact that her greatest enemy was her father, she kissed Han in Ewok village instead... (still 5% left...)

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Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Tahna, didn't you read this thread before posting? That was answered, quite well, in a couple places above.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Luke Lars, huh? He wouldn't have lasted 'til 15...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Yeah, I always thought that it was kinda odd that they never showed her reaction to that revelation. Maybe it was like:

"Vader's my father"

*GASP*

"You're my sister"

*GASP*

*Kiss Han*

"Waidda minute..."

The concept was more fully dealt with in the book "Truce at Bakura".

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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
So Vader will be fucking a girl twice his age...

Such language. Does no one understand the differences between "making love", "sex", and "fucking" anymore?

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Its the 21st century now, we teenagers like to curse every three words.

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Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Let's see. In episode I, Anakin is about 9 or 10. Amidala is about 16.

In episode II, it's some ten years later, I think. Which would make Anakin, like, 20, and Amidala 26.

"Twice his age", my ass...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

The worst of it is that Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen are the same age (-81's). He's two months older, in fact.
They're gonna have to put extra care in making him whine like Luke did so eminently in his day, that'll make him sound like the spoiled brat, and Amidala can just walk around with her royal poise and seasoned replies, she'll sound like the proverbial Reverend Mother.
I guess the six inch stilettos will do their part as well, like in Ep:I.

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Oh god yes, we all know the characters weren't whiny enough in Episode I.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Oh come on, Jar-Jar was nothing compared to Luke's "ooooh, play back the whole message!!!" or "why didn't you say so before???".

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Nimrod, you ought to be ashamed. You forgot "But I was gonna go into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!"...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

A little off topic, but...

There's a scene in ESB where everyone is in the carbon freezing room, and Chewie (with the dismantled C3P0 on his back) starts freaking out and throwing stormtroopers all around. The next scene shows Boba Fett and Darth Vader side by side. As Chewie's back is turned, exposing C3P0, Boba Fett raises his gun to fire on the Wookie. However, for some reason Vader knocks Fett's arm back down. Why does he do this? Could it be that he didn't wan't Fett to shoot C3P0 becuase he remembered building him?...

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

No, he probably wanted the wookie and princess for himself, deep down in the bowels of his personal little boat.
And maybe he didn't want to let Fett create a scene.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Good one, Jonah.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Or both.

Here's a question. How would Vadrer would know that C3PO is his own creation? All those C3PO look-alikes do look like C3PO you know. I don't think that the Force could sense the difference between the two unless Anakin infused C3PO with the Force so that 3PO is as whiny as he is and Luke.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Plus they get their memory banks wiped now and then, maybe to conserve disk space.

*poshy brit-accent* Eu, I'm afraid I know MUCH too much now. You know hwhat they say; ignorance is bliss. Now I don't have to remember those slaughtered people in theuse dreadful clone wars. *ZAP!* Hello, how do you do? I am-
-*sigh* I'm fiiine, C3p0.
-I'm sorry, have we met at a previous encounter? Pray tell!

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited April 09, 2001).]