Did anyone else cringe when Darth Vader screamed, "Noooo...!!!!"
Because I did.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
It wasn't the great film I hoped it would be, but let's be realistic: it told the story. If it had terrible dialogue, that's points off, but I was wowed by the rest of the film. And the fact that Jar Jar was eliminated in all but three non-speaking shots, and Ahmed Best was still credited. And James Earl Jones wasn't.
It's what I wanted to see, and I can't say I was disappointed.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
Whats wrong with the "nooooooo"? Its not like the suit makes him emotionless.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Yeah, we can't blame the suit for that one.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
What do you expect? He betrayed the Jedi thinking it would save his wife only to learn it was joining the dark side that killed her.
[ May 19, 2005, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Wow, you betrayed the Jedi? Thats a plot twist worth spoilers.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
lol...never would have guessed huh. But it's true.
Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
Thing I didnt get was that didn't Luke quiz Leia up in Movie 6 about thier real mother when they where hanging out on Endor? I coulda sworn that Leia said she actually remembered her real mother and even thought that mom looked sad alot. That Leia must have THE BEST MEMORY EVER! since she only saw her mom for a couple seconds when she was two seconds old.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Um, she was talking about her adopted mother, who probably died when she was young.
Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
Nah I coulda sworn Luke asked about his real mom. Now mind you I'm married so I'm used to being wrong all the time but I'd almost bet a nickel on it. (Thats a Canadian nickel worth about 3 cents American)
Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: Did anyone else cringe when Darth Vader screamed, "Noooo...!!!!"
Because I did.
I said 'nooo' at the stolid performance McGregor made us enjoy. Yeah, ok, the dialogue is not Shakespeare, but he downplayed the thing so much, it actually hurted.
But the movie was good, and 'it told the story'. Yeah. Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
But boy, Vader must gain some bodymass - he looked awfully wimpy Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
DoughBoy,
I think what is trying to be communicated to you is that while Leia thought she had memories of her real mother, and while she may have been told that person was her real mother, it was actually someone else - perhaps Organa's wife?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well these aren't normal babies and Leia did say all she remembers is just "images and feelings". Personally I'm willing to buy that those moments that Padme held her, it made a lasting impression, perhaps more on an unconsious level, but strong enough to endure. Not that Luke says he had no memory of his mother and that when he's born, he barely gets a look in, while Leia gets quite a bit more attention (although still very brief).
I thought the Qui-Gon bit was sort of tacked on the end a bit, it could have done with a little re-enforceing. Perhaps a scene early on with Yoda communing with Qui-Gon or perhaps having his spectral form appear next to Kenobi as Owen & Beru are gazing off in the other direction at the sunsets.
On the whole I was pleased, dialogue a bit ropey, but that's something I think we've all come to expect. I was a little disappointed that there wasn't a better look at Mon Mothma (apparantly she was in it but I didn't see her) or the Mon-Calamari. I imageine both these things were cut for time, not surprising since it is still technically a kid's film and I can't see many 10 year olds sitting through a 2 & 3/4 hour film, which is how long it would probably take to tidy all the little loose ends.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I must say I was impressed by McDiarmid's deliveries, he really scared me when initiating his spiral attack towards Mace Windu, that was Lord Sidious in his "prime".
I also felt very bad for Windu, I knew it would happen eventually but it was so cruel. Not to mention the eradication of the Jedi, that really broke my heart, especially Ayla Secura and that poor boy that was trying to reach the landing platform where Organa was.
I thought Vader's lament in the end was believable, it sounded just like his scream after Luke cut his hand off in the throne room.
At first I thought Dooku and Grievous were dealt with too easily, chopping off the last cords to the feel of Eps I & II, hurrying into "bridge-to-Ep.IV"-mode, but then I recognized that there was a lot of other stough and duels to cram in as well, so what they got wasn't that bad.
One image still won't leave my cornea; Yoda impaling a clone with his saber, then jumping up on his chest and pulling it out. That was taking care of bidness.
Alderaan was beautiful, just as I had pictured it. Like Naboo but more serene.
Actually I'm still recovering from seeing it (I left the theater an hour ago), it was a straining experience. My friends felt the same, the mood of the movie was contagious.
One thing I didn't quite get. I noticed several instances where a part of a dialogue and scene was added to explain away something needed, like Palpatine "sensing" that Vader was in danger on the lava planet, which was an excuse for how Vader got rescued later.
But the emergency message that Obi-Wan hacked into, telling any Jedi to stay away from Coruscant and go into exile, what purpose did that serve? Story-wise and "ass-covering"-wise?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Rev: Yeah there were some bits of the script cut out with Qui-Gon and Yoda communing and several senators (including Mothma and Organa) discussing the repercussions of Palpatine's takeover.
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: DoughBoy,
I think what is trying to be communicated to you is that while Leia thought she had memories of her real mother, and while she may have been told that person was her real mother, it was actually someone else - perhaps Organa's wife?
Ah yes I can be quite dense, but I can buy that. All is well in the land of Dough once again. Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim': But the emergency message that Obi-Wan hacked into, telling any Jedi to stay away from Coruscant and go into exile, what purpose did that serve? Story-wise and "ass-covering"-wise?
It opens the story up. Maybe for future books or, perhaps, the television series.
Maybe other Jedi survived. The warning beacon tells them to go into hiding. Later stories can be told with surviving Jedi.
I enjoyed it. Yes, it wasn't the best, but it did tell the story. And tell it rather well, I might add.
I didn't like the Droid Army or the Trade Federation. I've never liked the Droid Army or Trade Federation. They seem like bumbling, comic relief cartoon characters, not an invasion force to be reckoned with.
I did like how things were tied together. I thought the bridge to Episode IV worked seamlessly.
And C-3P0 get's his memory wiped.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
How cool was that openning sequence, though? Dizzam!!! Just the right balance and the stuff with R2 getting a call in the hangar was actually really funny. Yeah, there was some stuff that was kind of cheese and less-good, but there was so much great stuff. Lucas has brought balance to the prequels. Really terrific performances by Lee, McDiarmid and, yes, McGregor. I loved the "You were supposed to be The Chosen One..." speech. Like that totally nailed it.
Also some good kicks at GWB and our US war-mongering regime.
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
Star Wars as political allegory; also, the corn in my poop warns of deforestation dangers.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
This may sound odd but I liked the reference to the prophecy because in the end it turned out to be true. In the end Anakin dose destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force (I assume). There were some other nice parallels with RotJ, like the brief Dooku battle in front of a chair bound Palpatine (notice Dooku's reaction showed that he knew Sidious's alter ego) and the Mace Windu death scene, complete with x-ray scull flashes with Anakin looking on. I have always wondered what was going through Vader's mind while he watched Luke get electrocuted. Somehow it seamed like it reminded him of something, now we know it was the beginning of his betrayal of the Jedi, in essence the true "Birth of Darth Vader" scene.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Did the Republic ever have a military? Because at the end of the movie they show Vader and Palpatine on the proto-star destroyer we also see non-clones in the gray uniforms from Ep IV-VI and Scorpius as Tarkin. On a second viewing of Ep III I noticed Commander Cody had the same kind of red/blue square rank insignia seen in the OT.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Maybe the army was more like a national guard or something. Maybe planetary militias.
I concluded from dialogue in EP II & III that there was no standing army, therefore the need for the clone troopers.
Glad to see someone else noticed Tarkin being up there with Vader and Palpatine on the Proto-Star Destroyer looking at the Death Star under construction.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: And the fact that Jar Jar was eliminated in all but three non-speaking shots, and Ahmed Best was still credited. And James Earl Jones wasn't.
I saw him in one shot in the funeral procession and James Earl Jones WAS credited - I saw it last night.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
I thought I heard Jar-Jar speaking, right after they bring Palpatine after "rescuring" him...
Tarkin was rather easy to spot, anyway - this whole scene brought a big grin on my face
Has anyone seen Mon Montha? Is she in the film?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think all of her scenes were cut. If she is still in the film, it's probably the sequence where Palpatine is greeted by the Senators after his rescue -- but I didn't see her.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
I don't think the Republic itself had an army - and judging from what we saw in this film, the Grand Army of the Republic was used more to shore up the local-planetary armies than it was as an actual independent force ... maybe?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Mon Mothma is CREDITED... but yes, I can't see her. Maybe on one of those Senate pods that Amidala and Organa are in when Padme says "This how we die - to the sound of applause" or something like that?
Andrew
P.S. Reguards Organa's wife v Padme that Leia was thinking of - Luke specifically ask Leia about her REAL mother, not her adopted one.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Andrew,
Yes, but if people lied to Leia and said, "This is your real mother", how would she not know?
I mean, if it got out that the hot Senator from Alderaan was the daughter of the former Queen of the Naboo, Padme Amidalla, don't you think either the Emperor or Vader would have ... I don't know ... done something?
Point I'm making - in order to protect Leia, she was lied to about her real mother, including her identity.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I doubt they lied to her outright, more like a colouring of the truth. Remember that Luke didn't consider the Lars as his parents and he did still go by the name Skywalker. On the other hand he was told that his father was a navigator on a spice freighter. I suspect that something similar was told the Leia, that she was the daughter of A queen, not necessarily The former Queen of Naboo. In deed the way Luke asked the question in RotJ indicates that she dose already know she was adopted.
Your're right of course, neither twin was put in a particularly difficult place to find. If they really wanted to HIDE them then they'd have gone with Yoda to Dagobah. I think it's either a case of hiding them in plain sight or simply that Palpatine genuinly belived Padme died before childbirth, in which case there would be no reason to look for them. Indeed that seams to be the case when you view the new emperor dialogue in the EsB DVD and take into consideration that Vader only found out about the second child through Luke at the end of RotJ.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Did the Republic ever have a military? Because at the end of the movie they show Vader and Palpatine on the proto-star destroyer we also see non-clones in the gray uniforms from Ep IV-VI and Scorpius as Tarkin. On a second viewing of Ep III I noticed Commander Cody had the same kind of red/blue square rank insignia seen in the OT.
I was thinking about this today and wanted to respond in greater detail.
A large bit of the plot of "Attack of the Clones" had to deal with Palpatine's being granted power to raise a "Grand Army of the Republic". While the Clone troops certainly formed the start of that military force, there's nothing to suggest they made the entire military up by themselves.
As we saw in "Revenge of the Sith", clone troopers were sent to reinforce local planetary militaries of systems loyal to the Republic. Also, in a scene I think cut from "A New Hope", Red Leader tells Luke that he flew with Anakin during the Clone Wars -- a telling hint that Republic forces used non-Clones quite extensively.
Of course, the biggest clue to this is - as you pointed out - that at the end of the film, the Emperor and Vader are present on a starship bridge crewed by non-clones.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I just saw it. I cant believe I'm typing this but....
It was fantastic.
The only (minor) flub I caught was Obi Wan and Yoda (in the Jedi Temple) referring to Papaltine as "The Emperor" when he's just pronounced the Republic as the "First Galactic Empire".
Though mabye they had a TV on while walking among the bodies. (shrug)
It sure looks like a young Tarkin on the bridge of that starship bridge at the end- glad I'm not the only one that thinks so.
Looks like clones still do whatever the highest ranking officer tels them with no concept of loyalty or right and wrong. Fuckers shot that Jedi woman long after she was dead.
I greatly enjoyed Palpatine's story of his mentor and how he could use the force make Midichlorian "create life".
A lot is unsaid about Anakin's own origins there methinks. From that telling, it seems as though Palpy's master was keen on preserving life- mabye the Sith were not all dickheads?
Really nice parallels between Palpy's lines after Duku is killed and Mace Windu's likes to Anakin about "he's too dangerous to be allowed to live".
It showed that the Jedi had indeed compromised their principles- if Mace had followed the Jedi Code, everything would have been changed for the better.
But then, I always thought Mace was a dick.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Was talking about the movie today - mulling/discussing/arguing/agreeing/contemplating etc.
1. The first half of the movie was AMAZING. The Second half was too rushed and was almost as if Lucas though "Oh shit I have to wrap some things up here."
2. Eps 1,2 and 3 don't shit on 4,5 and 6.
3. Episode 1 and 2 should have been condensed down into just the first movie - and episode 3 should have been expanded out into episode 2 and 3. Episode 3 suffered due to episodes 1 and 2. The whole turning of Annakin seemed a little too... quick. He did it to help Padme but at the same time he just gave everything up? Hmmm and the whole power mongering thing - too quick - 2 and 3 should have dealt with this as completely different movies - i.e. episode 3 stretched out.
Get rid of the Pod races and Gun Guns of ep 1. Have Annakin as a boy for about 1/2 hour of ep1 with a different Padme actress then bring in Christensen and Portman. Have them marrying from the end of episode 1. etc.
Great, but could have been better.
These comments are TOTALLY undigested - just wanted to get them down in some form.
Andrew
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The film seemed determined to shoot itself in the foot at times. That scene where Anakin walks in on the kids and ignited his lightsabre had me going "oh fuck, no..." But then they ruin it by using "younglings" later on. If you're going to kill kids, say so. Don't make up a silly word to semi-diguise it or whatever the point was.
The dialogue was often a big cringeworthy, but "so this is how liberty ends...to thunderous applause" was a really good line.
Ickle Haydn was much better this time around. Possibly because he had to do less lovey stuff, and possibly because he had evil red contact lenses. But I was much more into his character. Likewise Obi-Wan at the end did a good job of showing his dispair at being forced into battle with someone he used to call a friend.
Surely everyone who hasn't seen "The Clone Wars" will be confused as to why Grevious is coughing. (And on that, isn't that another example of Windu sailing a little too close to the Dark Side. He does do a variation on a Force Choke on Grevious, after all.)
Half my friends liked the "nooo", half hated it. I was just glad he didn't drop to his knees and raise his fist at the ceiling, screaming "why god, why!?"
The opera-type scene between Palpatine and Anakin was great. Palpatine's dialogue where he talks of the Sith lord who had found the secret of creating life and who was then murdered in his sleep by his apprentiece was the best piece of acting in the film. The way Palpatine made you know that it was him in a subtle but obvious way was sublime. His "are you threatening me" line was also great.
Overall, I'm the exact opposite of Andrew. I thought the beginning was rushed and the final 30 minutes were great. Obi-Wan/Anakin at the same time as Palaptine was throwing the council chambers at Yoda was excellent. Loved it when Yoda walked in and just threw Palpatine's guards against the walls, and the contrast when the previously indestructible little green dude was almost knocked out by the Emperor's force lightning.
All in all, better than I thought. My opinion might go down after I've seen it again, but at the moment...I liked it.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
When did Windu face Grevious? I remember Obi-Wan fighting him, but not Mace Windu.
Of coruse, I've only watched the movie once so far.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Surely everyone who hasn't seen "The Clone Wars" will be confused as to why Grevious is coughing.
Subtle my words are.
Grevious spends the final season of the cartoon kicking Jedi arse, including Shaak Ti who one of my mates hates for some reason. Anyway, just as he's about to escape with Palpatine Windu races up to him. He pulls out four lightsabres, but Windu just reaches out and crushes Grevious' chest. The good general then decides to beat a hasty retreat into his ship. And this, I assume, is why he's coughing throughout Revenge of the Sith.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Windu's very short fight with Grievous was at the very end of Clone Wars. As Grievous is loading Palpatine into his ship, Windu uses the Force to crush Grievous' torso.
Edit: Curse you, Liam! Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Looks like clones still do whatever the highest ranking officer tels them with no concept of loyalty or right and wrong.
Jason,
I got the feeling that the Clones had been "programmed" (for lack of a better word) so that when they recieved 'Order 66', the programming would kick in and take control of them ... I mean, it isn't like we're talking about conscripted troops here who can form their own ideas of loyalty, and who might have resisted an order to kill their Jedi Generals -- with the Clones, it was like someone threw a switch from "Serve Jedi Generals" to "Kill Jedi Generals" ... remember, the Clones were grown to be subservient to their leaders, and since Palpatine arranged their creation, it makes sense he'd make them ultimately loyal to him alone.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Ahh...
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Mighty Snay:
quote:"Serve Jedi Generals" to "Kill Jedi Generals"
But they got served...
Liam:
quote:His "are you threatening me" line was also great.
Yes, and the "Treason it is, then!" that came next, reminded me of a Tai-Pan boss from "Noble House". He carried himself with so much more authority in this movie compared to the previous two movies where he's a kind uncle, Clement Attlee-like.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Palpatine == most rotten evil bastard ever.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay:
quote:Looks like clones still do whatever the highest ranking officer tels them with no concept of loyalty or right and wrong.
Jason,
I got the feeling that the Clones had been "programmed" (for lack of a better word) so that when they recieved 'Order 66', the programming would kick in and take control of them ... I mean, it isn't like we're talking about conscripted troops here who can form their own ideas of loyalty, and who might have resisted an order to kill their Jedi Generals -- with the Clones, it was like someone threw a switch from "Serve Jedi Generals" to "Kill Jedi Generals" ... remember, the Clones were grown to be subservient to their leaders, and since Palpatine arranged their creation, it makes sense he'd make them ultimately loyal to him alone.
Well, at least they were not addicted to white goo in neck-tubes.
Ol' Palpaltine just cut out the Vorta middlemen and passed the ass-kicking along to the Jedis directly. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, I saw it, and liked it, and then didn't like it, and then liked it again. It basically suffers from all the flaws of the prequels (no sense that there are any normal people involved, as opposed to superheroes and villains; sad, sad misuse and/or neglect of R2 and C-3PO), but is bombastic and fast-paced enough to make you overlook this.
Anyway, why again was it that only the last of the "dark and edgy" prequels managed to be dark and edgy?
And the Wookie sequences felt like they had no purpose other than to make sure some Wookies were in the movie.
And there was no trailer for Serenity! Just, what, Lord of the Rings 4: The Jesus Lion? (TAKE THAT OXFORD.)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, and what I was really, really hoping for but didn't get: I wanted C-3PO and R2-D2 to be the ones who somehow defeated Anakin on the lava planet. Like, maybe they withdraw a bridge or something at a crucial moment. I just wanted them to recognize that Anakin was evil, I guess, and make an independent moral choice. Plus it might save us from Kenobi's curious decision to just leave Anakin there rather than, I don't know, actually killing him. You might say he couldn't bring himself to do it, but he had no way of knowing that someone would come to rescue him, so he was killing him anyway, and in a far more gruesome manner.
I also wish we would have gotten a little hint of the Rebellion at the end, to go with the Death Star shot.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
quote:Anyway, why again was it that only the last of the "dark and edgy" prequels managed to be dark and edgy?
What do you mean? The first two episodes were set in a time before the Empire, of course they wanted to show how things had been when the Senate was in existence and the Jedi were on top of their game. The old trilogy is what's dark and edgy, bounty hunters and swamp dildo monsters everywhere.
The only remotely serene and prosperous thing we see in the OT was Cloud City, in my opinion. But that got shot to hell too when Vader disrupted their business with his troopers and then started to tear up the place, smashing windows and throwing boxes around him.
I liked seeing Naboo and the Jedi temple in their prime, and although I hated Dexter's Diner initially it has grown on me as it showed a place in Star Wars where one could grab a comfy bite while being on the Core Planet. It did have a function for establishing atmosphere.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm unsure about Obi-Wan wandering off, too. I took it at him being unable to actually finish off a helpless opponent, but as Simon said that meant that he was basically leaving Anakin to die slowly and painfully. Maybe is should have looked like Anakin was dead, I dunno.
(I also don't think that the droids were that badly misused. The humour seemed more original trilogy than "I'm quite beside myself" [although I found that funny. And so did Lee. And we proved Simon wrong with science]. Artoo being a little bitch to those droids at the beginning was funny, because it was balanced with the scene of him flying into a wall a bit later. So, good droids.)
I do agree about the Wookie sequence. Probably a good thing that Han wasn't in it, as we already had a "hey look, it's Chewie!" moment.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The prequels, according to all the talk going on at the time they were announced, were going to be about the tragic fall of the Republic and the rise of a great evil. The originals were about the triumph of good over that evil. And yet nothing at all tragic happens in film one; stuff vaguely unsettling takes place in film two, but true tragedy is nowhere to be seen until this one, in my opinion.
I just don't buy that the first two were setting up pretty things for the Empire to smash. For one thing, we don't see the Empire smash any of them, and the one place that does show up again, Tatooine, is not any different at all. (Indeed, since we don't see any slave markets in Star Wars, it's arguably improved.)
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Also at this point, I'm thinking Obi-Wan has seen a few substantially more wretched hives of scum and villany than Anchorhead.
Yeah the first two definitely had "up" endings hardly constituting tragedy. TPM: Sure, Qui-Gon got killed, but I mean the Trade Federation's plan was thwarted and there was a parade, was there not? Anakin needed to be more of a problem child. (perhaps yelling "yipee" while pulling off Sebulba's toenails with a pair of pliers) And of course less-whingey/more-creepy in Clone Wars. We were working on an edit of the movie where Padme and Anakin never kiss until just before their execution and he just pines after her hopelessly for most of the movie. I can't be certain, but that might resonate more with the fan-base's own experiences, and would certainly cast him in a darker light.
Regarding RoTS, personally, I bought Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to die. They were in many ways like brothers and before he departed he specifically expressed that he did not want to be the one to have to kill him. Even seemed to question his ability to do so. Plus Ewan's delivery of the "You were supposed to be the Chosen One..." speech was so depressed and disappointed. Yeah, I was in on that. Anakin's abrupt turn to the darkside based on his foggy premonition of Padme's pain during childbirth? Not so much.
So... if we are to assume that Palpatine did indeed initiate the Midichlorian (cringe) life-generating effect that however immaculately produced the boy, then why wasn't he keeping an eye on things Tatooine? How did Qui-Gon and co. go unnoticed for as long as they did there?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Possibly he'd just set the plan in motion and was only checking on Anakin's progress every so often. A 6 monthly check to make sure that Anakin was getting emotional attachments and the like.
Wasn't the whole point of the ending of The Phantom Menace that the "victory" wasn't actually the victory everyone thought it was? Palpatine had become supreme chancellor, weakened one of the major powers in the galaxy in The Trade Federation, and forced the Jedi to train a child that they wanted to be left alone (Palpatine's involvement with Anakin is up for much speculation, especially after that whole "he could force the midichlorines to create life" speech in Ep III, but that whole "we shall look upon your career with great interest" certainly strikes me as coming from a man who had plans).
The fact that the celebration music was actually the Emperor's theme further enforces that. The Phantom Menace had been defeated, but the real one was much stronger.
And I don't get how you can say the ending of episdoe II is "up" either. Palpatine has (essentaially) total control of the republic, and an enormous army of completely loyal troops to back it up. And at the same time, Anakin is doing something that can only lead to tradegy. Hardly "up".
If anything, the only one of the three prequels that has an "up" ending is Revenge of the Sith, with it's hope for the future.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Palpatine being Anakin's father isn't canon as far as I've heard.
EDIT: I'll leave this in anyway.
quote:Yeah the first two definitely had "up" endings hardly constituting tragedy.
Well a lot of Jedi died, Anakin lost his arm, Dooku delivered the Death Star plans to Sidious, the Clone Army mobilized under supervision of Palpatine and a disheartened Bail Organa.
I thought the end of Ep.II was dark enough, especially with the "Imperial March" playing. I also like how they augmented the tune for the Clones so that there's a trumpet section playing a new support segment in the middle, while the Clones are boarding the cruisers.
I agree that Ep.I was happier in the ending, although Qui-Gon's funeral laid the foundation for the Sith master/apprentice deal, with the camera resting on Palpatine after Windu's and Yoda's Maul-briefing.
Posted by Not Invented Here (Member # 1606) on :
When I first heard of the Palapatine creating Anakin idea, I was sceptical. But one thing is bugging me that could clinch it - why was Darth Maul on Tatooine in Ep 1? Was that ever properly explained, and if not, could he have been 'checking up' on Anakin?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
He was following Amidala, so as to capture and/or kill her, if I recall correctly. Or I guess make her sign that treaty.
What if she had, anyway?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And about the whole birth of the Rebellion thing, I'd say Bail Organa running around in Tantive IV and rescuing Jedi when the whole Republic/Empire has been ordered to kill them seems a bit rebellious to me.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
The whole detour to Tattooine was because of a stray shot to Amidala's ship when breaking through the Naboo blockade, so the discovery of Anakin can not have been orchestrated by Palpatine.
Furthermore, no Jedi could've gone to Tattooine to discover Ani if Palpatine had had his will, because he wanted Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dead already on Nute Gunray's ship.
After that, Palpatine makes remarks throughout the whole movie of wanting the Qui-Gon posse wiped out, that would've included Anakin.
And Maul tried to run Ani into the ground, as well.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Is Palpatine aware that Anakin is with Qui-Gonn on Tattooine? Or that he follows them back to Naboo? I can't remember.
(This also ignores the unspoken Star Wars rule that important people on the same planet are bound to run into each other, the same way that I bump into Lee on an almost daily basis.)
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
We were working on an edit of the movie where Padme and Anakin never kiss until just before their execution and he just pines after her hopelessly for most of the movie.
Such an edit already exists. Google for MagnoliaFan, or check out myspleen.net, I think. Don't have my bookmarks handy right this sec. His edits of ep1 and 2 are far superior to the originals.
why was Darth Maul on Tatooine in Ep 1? Was that ever properly explained, and if not, could he have been 'checking up' on Anakin?
Maul WAS looking for Amidala, but there was never any indication as to why he went to Tatooine to find her. So... maybe. Though I don't know that I'd trust Maul around his potential replacement.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
True. It didn't work out too well for Dooku.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Why wouldn't Dooku try and turn the tables on Palpatine then, and expose him? Sure, Anakin probably wouldn't believe him, but what did he have to lose?
For that matter, if Sith apprentices tend to kill their masters, why would Palpatine be eager to build a superpowered one?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Overconfidence? It was his undoing, after all.
He never teaches Vadar force-lightning though, does he?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Lucasarts had Anakin using Force Lightning against droids in ROTS the game for PS2 and XBox but he couldn't actually have had time to learn Sith techniques in the short time from Palpatine's coming out of the Sith closet to Anakin and the end of ROTS.
Maul didn't use it either, I can imagine it is one of the most taxing uses of the force, so Maul probably needed all his strength for the three-man fight. He did manage a nice force push on Anakin, though. And they added some strange thunder-sfx to it, like his Force Push was of another, more volatile nature than Qui-Gon's and Kenobi's pushes against droids.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
When does he Force Push Anakin? When he's about to attack Qui-Gon on Tatooine?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Sorry, meant Kenobi, when sending him down the bottomless hole.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
According to the Episode III Visual Dictionary, even if Anakin knew how to use Force lightning, he couldn't. His artificial limbs prevent him from using it. They also prevent him from defending against it as Yoda did in Episode II.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
You mean like how those same artifical limbs prevent him from engaging in long-distance choking?
Sorry, not buying it.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yeah, that's crap. Maybe Palpatine just told him that.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
I think the Dictionary is saying that Force lightning, for whatever reason, either originates from or is conducted through the hands, which would probably destroy his artificial limbs. As for Force choking, Vader didn't even use his hands while choking one of his Admirals in the Empire Strikes Back.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
While I am in a snarky mood, and speaking of such things, in the beginning of the film, I found myself wondering if there was perhaps some force that Obi-Wan could use to force those droids off his fighter.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I was wondering about that too. Like I realize it's from the videogame and not exactly canon or anything, but were they both saving their force-points for their arrival on Grievous's ship? Which character-class/Jedi-class would our heroes be?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
It is funny you should ask, Balaam, I took THIS pic 5 minutes ago. First ignition, just after getting Bao-Dur to fix me up, on Dantooine. Took me quite the while to get the Cyan-colored crystal.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:As for Force choking, Vader didn't even use his hands while choking one of his Admirals in the Empire Strikes Back.
I have a theory about that. We always see Jedi use their hands to indicate what they want to accomplish with the Force ... Luke reaches for his lightsaber in the Wampa cave in ESB, Obi-Wan gestures to the door when he hides away on Padme's ship, etcetra.
I don't think the hand motion is something that has to be done to utilize the Force. Rather, it's a technique taught to Jedi trainees when they're young to help them conceptualize what they're trying to accomplish. Since they learn to use motions in concert with the Force so young in life, its something so ingrained to most Jedi, that they continue to use these motions even when there is no use for them.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So....a Sithcould use Darkforce Lightening from his feet?
Really the lightening seems overrated- easily reflected back, doing massive damage to the user. Consider Palpaltine's inability to turn it off in both Ep II and RTOJ.
Better off with a blaster.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
quote:I don't think the hand motion is something that has to be done to utilize the Force. Rather, it's a technique taught to Jedi trainees when they're young to help them conceptualize what they're trying to accomplish.
That 900-year old jedi still used his hand when lifting a ship out of the water and both hands for moving girders and landing troop ships.
I think the use of hand gestures amplifies the amount of strength used in a given force move.
Also, it indicates that they are using the Force, like Kenobi opening and closing doors. Had he just looked at the door(s) some people still would've thought the doors operated automatically.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Anakin also does a (rather extreme) Force Choke right at the end of Clone Wars while missing a hand completely. Which was quite cool.
I don't think that Palpatine was unable to turn off Force Lightning in RotS. He was trying to get Anakin to attack Windu, remember. He could very well have not been putting up a huge fight just to force Anakin to act. Certainly, he seems right as rain when he blows Windu out of the building.
(We also don't see it damaging him in, er, Return The Of Jedi. I'd say the massive fall into the Bottomless Chasm of Despair was more dangerous.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: We were working on an edit of the movie where Padme and Anakin never kiss until just before their execution and he just pines after her hopelessly for most of the movie.
Such an edit already exists. Google for MagnoliaFan, or check out myspleen.net, I think. Don't have my bookmarks handy right this sec. His edits of ep1 and 2 are far superior to the originals.
Do they have an edit of the Phantom Menace I read about ages ago - where they basically cut most of "Yipee" Anakin and Jar Jar Binks scenes and the Jar Jar Binks scenes that ARE left in his voice is scrambled and he is given subtitles to make him sound more wise than he is?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: And the Wookie sequences felt like they had no purpose other than to make sure some Wookies were in the movie.
And there was no trailer for Serenity! Just, what, Lord of the Rings 4: The Jesus Lion? (TAKE THAT OXFORD.)
Fuck Fuck FUCK! You got to see the Chronicles of Narnia preview!?! Awww!
We got The Fantastic Four. (Did the woman always have some sort of 'ghostly pushing power'? I thought she just turned invisible? I'm sure there's some sort of Feminist Studies thesis in there somewhere).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
She's had forcefields since, er, the 1970s I think. Pretty much exactly the same as Violet from The Incredibles.
(And yes, there have been studies pointing out that early female super heroes had a tendency towards passive and/or non physical superpowers. Yay studies.)
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:I think the Dictionary is saying that Force lightning, for whatever reason, either originates from or is conducted through the hands, which would probably destroy his artificial limbs.
I'm sure some species don't HAVE hands. Surely the Force doesn't differentiate based on body shape.
quote:I don't think the hand motion is something that has to be done to utilize the Force. Rather, it's a technique taught to Jedi trainees when they're young to help them conceptualize what they're trying to accomplish. Since they learn to use motions in concert with the Force so young in life, its something so ingrained to most Jedi, that they continue to use these motions even when there is no use for them.
Or, taking it a step further, they might have done it so long that they don't believe they CAN do things any other way. Some sort of psychological block. But now we're getting into random speculation.
quote:Do they have an edit of the Phantom Menace I read about ages ago - where they basically cut most of "Yipee" Anakin and Jar Jar Binks scenes and the Jar Jar Binks scenes that ARE left in his voice is scrambled and he is given subtitles to make him sound more wise than he is?
There are a few edits like that, I think, but yeah, MagnoliaFan's is among them. Jar Jar still has most of his scenes, I think, but with all his lines replaced he's much less annoying. He also swears, which is great. Being chased down the battlefield by the big energy balls after the Gungans are retreating, yelling "SHIT! SHIT!" is priceless. Or cheering Anakin on in the podrace, "GO, you little bastard!" Oh, and they replaced/added music to the pod race, it's the trench run now. And it's SOOOO much more fun.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: She's had forcefields since, er, the 1970s I think. Pretty much exactly the same as Violet from The Incredibles.
(And yes, there have been studies pointing out that early female super heroes had a tendency towards passive and/or non physical superpowers. Yay studies.)
I was also thinking along the lines of "the woman turns invisible".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That's seems a pretty good definition of "passive" to me.
The internet being what it is, we can discover that Mrs. Reed's forcefields were a John Byrne innovation, introduced I guess sometime in 1981, the year he took over the comic book.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Anakin also does a (rather extreme) Force Choke right at the end of Clone Wars while missing a hand completely. Which was quite cool.
I don't think that Palpatine was unable to turn off Force Lightning in RotS. He was trying to get Anakin to attack Windu, remember. He could very well have not been putting up a huge fight just to force Anakin to act. Certainly, he seems right as rain when he blows Windu out of the building.
(We also don't see it damaging him in, er, Return The Of Jedi. I'd say the massive fall into the Bottomless Chasm of Despair was more dangerous.)
I dont know....he's stuck in his Wicked Witch pose while Vader goes for the bodyslam record of the galaxy.
You'd think he would have turned it off and just used the force to rip Vader's respirator off or something more effective.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
He had like five seconds and those were filled with astonishment mixed with panic, combined with Vader's potentially stinging skin-grab below Palp's armpits, probably making him shoot sparks on general instinct (one of my Bujinkan-senseis did that to me once, using an example of surprise and concentration-breaking by grabbing the skin between my ribs and armpits, lifting me and then taking me down. The hairs in the back of my neck stood up for five minutes).
I love the Emperor's panic scream there, by the way, very haunting and later perfectly repeated when he's sent tumbling over a chair by Yoda in "ROTS". That really made me feel like "Wow, I'm watching these old people do their thing again and they've still got it".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: That's seems a pretty good definition of "passive" to me.
The internet being what it is, we can discover that Mrs. Reed's forcefields were a John Byrne innovation, introduced I guess sometime in 1981, the year he took over the comic book.
Yes, I meant more along the lines of "woman should not be seen/get back in the kitchen" type of thing for the feminist thesis. Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Well the bluey-greeny Twi'lek (Luminara Unduli? Aayla Secura?) Jedi's death was pretty unglorious. She didn't even get her lightsaber lit before the clone troopers let loose.
(EDIT: More info about possible names)
[ May 29, 2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Balaam Xumucane ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah- that sucked. They kept shooting her after she was dead too!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That was a weird planet they were on - Ayala Secura I think her name is... looked like a giant garden.
I think either Luminara Unduli or Baris Offee?? Were on Kashyyyk with Yoda.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I liked that planet- Kashyyk and the world jedi conehead died on could have been earth for all their uniqueness.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
The bridge that Ki-Adi-Mundi (conehead) died on reminded me of Halo.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Or Stalingrad.
Luminara was on Kashyyyk with the Swamp-scout clones and Yoda, but I don't remember seeing her in the movie. I've seen pictures of her there, though, so it's probably going to be on the DVD.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
She's there - to the left of screen looking at a map/battleplan - with some clone troopers I think.
In that visual encyclopaedia thing - Shaak Ti's picture is there - but surely she's not in the movie - having been vanquished just moments before the movie begins?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
No, she's in the Jedi temple when Anakin goes postal, it was either cut or never filmed. It's in the novelization, I've been told. He goes to her in her quarters, while she's meditating. Asshole.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I've heard that one of the female jedi's scenes were cut because the actress posed nude. That could be her.
I finally got to see the movie on Saturday, and I swear my mouth was hanging open for the first 15 minutes and the last half hour. Wow. I especially liked when Vader's mask was sealed, and all the music and other sounds dropped out completely, and the only sound you heard was his first breath through the mask. Perfect. Chills went up my spine at that scene.
Nice that C3PO's memory was wiped, but Artoo's wasn't. Looking back at ESB, to me it puts a whole new spin on Artoo's nervousness in Cloud City.
B.J.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Just saw it last night. I like! My biggest gripe is the first twenty minutes or so, that big battle needed a major rewrite. The dialog was crap, and the battledroids should never be allowed to say anything. The R2 antics were a bit excessive, but the pretty girl I want to take to see it next week LOVES R2, so that's totally forgivable. I say great movie, on par with Return of the Jedi, easily.
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
A girl who loves R2 would love the fine, robust flavour of a knuckle sammich if I were the chef.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh huh. You would be kissing her in the alley behind the malt shop, is what you would be doing.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I finally saw Ep 3 on Friday with my brother. Definitely need to see it again to put the pieces together.
Regarding the arguement about whether or not Sidious created Anakin, that was the first thought that popped into my head as Palpatine was monologing. It definitely seemed as though he was talking about himself and his master.
The movie needed less lizard horses and more development of things like, Qui-Gon making contact with Yoda, Obi-Wan discovering Anakin's treachery (watching 10 seconds of video footage, then saying, "Yep, Anakin's evil now" didn't cut it for me), Dooku's relationship with Palpatine, MASTER SIFO DIAS, hello?!, etc.
I'm not sure I really understand why Palpatine's Force lightning melted his face. Or rather, why he would let it. I don't believe for a second that he was putting forth his best effort against Windu, because he wanted Anakin to step in. My theory is that he has always looked deformed, and that he was concealing his true appearance by means of the Force. When he faught Windu, he finally let it go.
The inclusion of the Wookies was rather pointless, but didn't bother me. Yoda had to go somewhere afterall. May as well be somewhere we've always wanted to see.
Anakin losing because he tried to jump over Kenobi didn't work for me, but Kenobi's emotion after he shortened Anakin's inseam was really good.
There was a discussion some pages back about the supposed darkness of the first three movies and how they weren't really all that dark. I think they are dark, but only if you've seen the original trilogy first and know what's going to happen. Knowing that none of the hope at the end of Eps 1 and 2 is real makes them somewhat dark.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Sideous is supposed to look that way as well- the human appearance is just his super-darkside-powers working.
I dont think he's human (just as Darh Maul was not- why should he be?)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
True. Just because he was the senator for Naboo doesn't mean he was actually born there. He could've just chosen that planet to start plotting on and blended in with the citizenry long enough to establish himself.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I doubt a represenative really needs to originate from the planet they speak for- they probably only need to be a resident and get elected from there.
I cant imagine a place like Naboo spawning Palpaltine. Besides, if Palpy were a native, you'd think he'd have given the locations of the Gungan cities to the Trade Federation (they had to hunt for them as I recall).
Mabye he just forsaw Jar-Jar's usefulness or something.
I did think it a bit odd that Palpaltine's "true form" resembled old Dracula with his hair up (from that insepid Bram Stoker's Dracula)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I wonder what the original conception for the Emperor was back when he first made an appearance in ESB. He seemed very alien with the weird eyes. Even in RotJ, his face seemed to be deliberately non-human. Of course, all of this was before it was decided that he was from Naboo, so they had to come up with some way to make him look like he does in the OT.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I always thought he was human, even in 1980. He was just old and twisted from use of the Dark Side.
B.J.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Well Starwars.com has him as human male from Naboo. Occam's razor and all that.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd go for that too. The Dark-side possibly just makes you all evil looking and stuff if you over-use it. Anakin got red eyes after all, and he was only evil for about 12 hours.
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: In that visual encyclopaedia thing - Shaak Ti's picture is there - but surely she's not in the movie - having been vanquished just moments before the movie begins?
She wasn't vanquished. She was just left hanging in the air with some electrical cables. After Yoda cut her down she probably went to meditate and have a bit of a cry. Pity, as she put up a good fight against Grevous' guards.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Grievous' guards and Grievous himself both seem like wusses compared to what they were in the cartoons. 4 or 5 Jedi masters get stomped at once in the cartoon, but then Obi-Wan is able to take him on? I know he was injured and all... but still.
I've long assumed that Palpy's appearance was due to Dark Side wear and tear. I just wish something like that would've been elaborated on in Ep3. "Lightning melted my face" doesn't really work as well for me.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Nice that C3PO's memory was wiped, but Artoo's wasn't. Looking back at ESB, to me it puts a whole new spin on Artoo's nervousness in Cloud City.
Do you think that R2 was trying to tell Luke that Vader was his father the whole time?
Luke: If you're trying to tell me that coming here was a bad idea, I'm beginning to believe you.
R2D2: No, I'm trying to tell you that the guy in the black suit is your daddy.
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: My theory is that he has always looked deformed, and that he was concealing his true appearance by means of the Force. When he fought Windu, he finally let it go.
That's what I always thought too. Doesn't it look like what you can see of Sideous' face beneath the hood is messed up in Episodes I and II? Palpatine definitely uses the Emperor voice whenever he is talking to someone as Sideous in the earlier movies.
Speaking of the Emperor voice, I was really starting to hate it during the Sideous/Yoda fight scene. McDiarmid managed to pull off a great performance during the first part of the movie despite George's weak directing, and the cheesy Emperor posturing/voice seemed to really weaken one of the movie's saving graces.
Ewan McGregor's performance was rotten. I don't know what you all were smoking before you saw this movie, but I wish I had some.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Palpy's face is not messed up during his appearances as Sideous in the previous episodes. There are production shots of him in the hood with clearer lighting, and his face is just his normal appearance. That doesn't mean the character doesn't looked twisted under the hood, it just means the actor wasn't wearing twisted makeup at the time.
The only problems I remember having with McGregor's performance was during the discovery of the security recordings. That scene had zero emotional impact for me. The "You were the chosen one" speech was good, I thought.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
This may help with R2-D2's not being mindwiped as well, but, who KNOWS that Anakin has become Darth Vader? Even if Yoda and Kenobi don't know his new name (can't remember if they heard it or not), they certainly made the connection. Everyone else may assume that Vader is a new Sith that came along and killed Anakin along with the others.
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Bail Organa would certainly have been told that Anakin became Palpatine's new apprentice, whether they know his name yet or not. Kenobi and Yoda may also end this movie believing that Anakin is dead. For all Kenobi knows, he went up like a match. Eventually, rumors would get around to them about the Emperor's new man in black. Kenobi certainly knows who he is in Ep 4.
This brings up the question of how much do people know about the Emperor's tie to the Sith? The Imperial officers seem to know that Vader is a Sith Lord, but they also treat Force abilities with minor disdain. "Sorceror's ways". It seems unlikely that the Emperor woudl reveal his connection with a notedly evil group while trying to secure power. And noone really knew of his playing both sides in the war except Dooku, even Anakin didn't.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
R2-D2 can have his beeps translated, though. So if he wanted to tell Luke about his father he could.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
True. But Artoo isn't that kind of droid. Free will and all that. He does what he's told - and I'm willing at some point he was told not to tell.
Twenty years is a long time - and I've accepted that it's time enough, movie-wise, to "make things right".
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: It seems unlikely that the Emperor would reveal his connection with a notedly evil group while trying to secure power. And noone really knew of his playing both sides in the war except Dooku, even Anakin didn't.
Well, the Sith are evil according to the Jedi. But the Jedi are evil according to the heroic Emperor - and he has plenty of material from the "Jedi coup attempt" to back up the claim. The average Joe may not find the concept of the Sith particularly troubling, and can dismiss rumors about their past horrors as Jedi propaganda.
As for who actually knows what Palpatine did... Many of the clones ought to have an inkling, after witnessing the battlefield events - they are very obedient, but they aren't nonsapient. But if they are as easily "reprogrammed" or "turned off" as the Separationist droids, then the information should be easily contained. Something must have happened to the clones anyway, in a relatively short time, since in the final montage the military is shown to consist of varied "humans" even before Luke is delivered to Tatooine...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, just the bridge crew aboard that ship, right? For all we know the Republic's navy was made up of some regular folk even during the Clone War(s).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Re: Sideous' face:
There was that transition/force lightening bit - and that didn't sit right to me - the scene didn't show him 'ageing' or 'melting' - it was if a mask was blown away. Looking at the visual dictionary in the book store yesterday - that is what is said - the force lightning reveals Palpatine's TRUE FACE.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One of the Imperial officers says to Vader in Ep4 that the Jedi are gone from the galaxy and that Vader is the last of their religion. He seemed to be talking about all Force users since Vader had just got done extoling the power of the Force in general, not the Sith. It also seems apparent that Vader's former Jedi membership is common knowledge, at least among the Imperial ranks. But viewing these statements in the light of Eps 1-3, Palpatine could very easily be viewed simply as the Chancellor-cum-Emperor who has the last loyal Jedi in his service. There needn't be anything supernatural about him. His pretence of innocence is also not that important anymore, though, now that he has pretty much complete power.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Obi-wan and Anakin heard the name Vader in the security recording of Anakin kneeling to Palpatine. "Consumed by Darth Vader he has been," or somesuch. But yeah, I don't think we have any reason to believe R2 knows Darth Vader = Anakin, at least not unless he overhears the conversation with Dead Ben in ep6.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
And... does R2 even know that Anakin is father?
That's rather unlikely, but, who knows...
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Or he heard some comments between Ben, Bail and Yoda after leaving Anakin to die on the lava planet.
R2 had to know something was afoot and something was different. Jedi temple destroyed, Anakin in league with Palpatine, Anaking flies off to the lava world with R2 on some mission for Palpatine. R2 then retrieved by Ben and company and leaves the lava world without Anakin. Anakin and Padme's twins are separated at birth and taken in secret to adoptive parents...
Plus he could have had opportunity to converse with 3P0 before his memory was wiped.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: And... does R2 even know that Anakin is father?
That's rather unlikely, but, who knows...
C3P0's father, right? Luke's half brother?
Tarkin was the one that said Vader was "the last of that religion", but that might just refer to his reverence towards the force and not the ability to manipulate it. Tarkin was Vader's boss (somehow), so I'm sure he was "in the loop" on what Palpaltine was capable of.
Strangely, most of the EU nad gaming stuff refers to Palpy as being a "humans only" sort of bigot, but all his right hand men in I-III are (except taht sap Doku) not human.
I wonder why the switch...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, his NT plans hinged rather heavily on getting all his right-hand men KILLED...
Okay, perhaps Darth Maul was not supposed to die, or at least his death served no obvious purpose in Palpatine's designs. But all the Separatist associates of his were sacrificial lambs from Day One of the plan. And whatever supporters he had in the Senate became fairly irrelevant once he gained power.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I meant the blue guy with the horns and the creepy bald chick mainly. The asian sterotype aliens were obviously expendable from the start.
I'm still notconvinced that Doku knew Palpaltine and Sideous were the same guy. He was a sap- at least Darth Maul seemed to have Sideous' confidence.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Darth Maul was raised by Palp and essentially trained as a Jedi-killing machine. Dooku, methinks, had his own plans going on and was never really all that trusted by Palpatine.
We know that Dooku knew it was Sideous' plan all along to start a war by playing both sides. It was Dooku who hired Jango for the Clone project. It was also Dooku who led the seperatist movement. So he knew part of the plan. Knowing Sideous' real motivations would seem to necessitate Dooku knowing Sidious and Palp are one in the same, but Sidious could have been telling him a story about why he wanted war to start. He could have just been feeding him the Sith party line: "It will get rid of the Jedi for us."
But, Dooku did shoot Palp a rather shocked look when he told Anakin to kill him. Whatever the case, Palpatine has obviously been manipulating Anakin all his life, patiently waiting until he was powerful enough to be of use to him.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye palpy did not trust even a former Jedi with the whole plan. Vader is also a tool, but a little better informed, I guess.
What's strange is that Palpy makes this elaborate scheme to gain power, wipe out the Jedi and turn Anakin but somewhere along the line, he grows complacent and lets the Rebel Alliance become a real threat.
Mabye he was just bored.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well I recently saw the movie and thought it was pretty good.
I'm pretty sure palpy knows a Rebellion will rise. They would be the kind of enemy palpy could scapegoat and use to justify his regime.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Well I recently saw the movie and thought it was pretty good.
I'm pretty sure palpy knows a Rebellion will rise. They would be the kind of enemy palpy could scapegoat and use to justify his regime.
In addition, he had to have known that not everyone would bend the knee to him when he took power. From the actions of Bail Organa, we see that, in a sense, the rebellion was born the minute Palpatine had the Jedi killed and declared himself Emperor. I find it unlikely that there weren't others who shared Bail's sentiments from the outset, and, as someone already mentioned, the ex-separatists would have been ripe for recruitment, especially if it could be shown that Palpatine manipulated them to grab power in the first place.
Obviously, Palpatine was not 100% confident that the entire galaxy would be blindly loyal to him or else he would not have needed to waste considerable resources in the construction of the Death Star (not to mention sacrificing the lives of thousands of innocent independent contractors who were just trying to make a living).
Was the moon (or moon-like, I suppose that it could be a planet) that Bail took Yoda and Obi-Wan to supposed to be Dantooine (probably misspelled�the abandoned rebel base that Leia tells Vader about in Ep IV.)
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Seeing Obi- lament "You were the chosen one! you were supposed to bring balance to the force" kind of made me chuckle. When you really think about it, old Ani did just that at that point. It was Vader and Palpy on one side and Obi and the spinning green booger on the other. 2 against 2. pretty balanced to me.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Apparently not. The Extended Universe (in this case, the "making of" or "secrets of" books on ROTS) mentions a mysteriously demolished inhabited planet whose ruins are being studied by the weird palefaces whom we see tending the asteroid station. I forget the name, but it's not Dantooine. In the EU, this isn't a Jedi "safe house" even if the movie makes it look like one - it's a random location of helpful bystanders, and apparently never becomes a Rebel base or anything. That is, if you believe in the EU.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: We know that Dooku knew it was Sideous' plan all along to start a war by playing both sides. It was Dooku who hired Jango for the Clone project.
Outside of the Bounty Hunter video game, what other sorce is there for Dooku hiring Jango Fett.
Since Jango was recruited by Dooku, then it stands to reason that the "Sifo Dyas requesting the clones be made" backstory is a bit of a stretch. Either he didn't really have altruistic motives or someone impersonated him.
I'm having a discussion on another DB about this point and need more info, since I've not kept up on the EU.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: Seeing Obi- lament "You were the chosen one! you were supposed to bring balance to the force" kind of made me chuckle. When you really think about it, old Ani did just that at that point. It was Vader and Palpy on one side and Obi and the spinning green booger on the other. 2 against 2. pretty balanced to me.
Except that after Jedi, the Empire falls, there's only one Jedi (and Leia could be trained I guess) and no Sith.
Not much balance in a happy ending though.
(shrugs)
The perefect ending would have been to have the Emperor escape, add a big "?" aftet "The End". ...and Palpy's laughter as the credits roll. And Queen could do the soundtrack.
Okay, that idea sucks- only an idiot would make such a movie.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
quote:Outside of the Bounty Hunter video game, what other sorce is there for Dooku hiring Jango Fett
It's right in the movie. Kenobi pressures Jango Fett on his potential contact with Master Sifo-Dyas, to which Fett responds "don't know about that, I was hired by a man named Tyranus" (paraphrased). Darth Tyranus being Dooku.
I would've liked to have gotten more coverage on Sifo-Dyas' story, though.
Obi Juan:
quote:Was the moon (or moon-like, I suppose that it could be a planet) that Bail took Yoda and Obi-Wan to supposed to be Dantooine (probably misspelled�the abandoned rebel base that Leia tells Vader about in Ep IV.)
Here's Dantooine as seen in the Clone Wars miniseries. Pastoral, temperate climate. Wonderful to run around on in the KotOR-games.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Thanks!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
You could argue that the "balance" brought to the force is that someone could use the Dark side, understand it, and then release himself from it. In the end, Luke WAS using the dark side in defeating Vader, but didn't let it consume him, as he rejected it's influence when the moment had passed. Maybe Anakin brought balance to the force by having progeny that could master it in a way he couldn't.
Or more likely Lucas was doing revisionist crap again.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I could also argue that there is zero accountability in Star Wars. Vader kills the a bunch of children, all the Jedis in the temple, is an accessory to the mass murder of an entire planet and is redemmed by killing ONE old man who happens to be more evil than he is?
Fuuuck that.
The end of Jedi should have been of Obi Wan and Yoda's spirits drinking beers while Anakin burns in hell forever.
Mabye it'll happen in Lucas' 15th revision.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Actually that's one thing I always thought of - Qui Gon was wrong - well to a point. Anakin did bring about balance to the force - by having Luke and Leia. But what was the imbalance to begin with - they never really established this firmly in Episode 1.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or they just got the prophecy out of a crackerjack box.
I dont think even the EU (with it's sillyness) has tackled the origins of that particular plot device.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Jason claimed:
quote:Fuuuck that.
Actually, after looking at other Star Wars stories and plots, I've come to appreciate the distinctions between Jedi and Sith. Getting someone like Vader to feel mercy, pity, obligation (to save his son) and sacrifice is an extremely big thing where the ethics of the Star Wars mythos is concerned.
Deaths and losses are irrelevant in the universe of Star Wars, the state of your soul and mind is what the Force works through, it seems. Taking such a step as Vader did was momentous.
AndrewR:
quote:But what was the imbalance to begin with - they never really established this firmly in Episode 1.
I would say that the state of the galaxy during the last years of the Old Republic was one of a greatly dispersed amount of Light Force users and a small number of very powerful Dark Force users, not having had a "stirring of the pot" for a great many generations.
Similar to the state of Middle Earth during the watchful peace between Sauron's first downfall and his final one, the Jedi and the Republic had come a long way but were still haunted by several different internal and external threats, predominantly the dormant Sith.
After Vader's, Yoda's and Palpatine's deaths in the course of only a few days, the balance of the Force was probably shifted a great deal, wiping the slate clean, as it were.
I could compare Yoda and Palpatine to Gandalf and Sauron/The Balrog. Their might and prowess was considerable but they were not supposed to stay and retain their power indefinately and after their "passing" the pieces of the board could be allowed to shift a great deal.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Back to an older question: I was just talking to someone and they said that they had read somewhere that Sifo Dias was Palpatine's first Sith apprentice who got sabered by Maul before the events of Episode I. Is this in some EU material?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
My impressions are that a smart Sith Lord is always bringing up a new apprentice to assasinate the current #2 before they can administer the same prescription for insomnia relief ol' Palpy gave his Mentor.
Perhaps the Emperor actually knew about Luke all along and was planning from day one for him to take out Vader and be his #2. Then he could've used Leia to take out Luke and on and on.
Just how powerful was Luke and Vader? We get the hints that Anakin was like a SuperJedi or something but we never really see Luke using a lot of Force power. He even had trouble recovering a LightSabre that was 4 feet from him. I don't think from what we see in Eps 1-3 that Luke was much beyond that kid that was trying to fight his way out of the Jedi temple while Organa was there. Maybe that was what Palpy wanted, someone a lot less powerful to be behind his back.
Sounds almost....Klingon....
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
In the EU stuff, Luke becomes alot more powerful as his training continues.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
He hadn't met Yoda yet as of Hoth and it seemed few could learn to master and figure out the force powers and resources without a master.
His crash course at Dagobah was probably very demanding and he seemed to be physically well-prepared to face Vader at Bespin, just not emotionally or psychologically ready. In Luke's defense I'd say that anyone facing Vader mano y mano without prior experience (Kenobi having tutored Ani from snotnose-stage) would get rather demoralized by the dark side swerving around and through Vader.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I definitely agree w/your assessment, Nim'. Luke was powerful, but untrained as of Hoth. As to seeing the Jedi do lots of Force power-stunts, how often did we see other Jedi levitating things just to show their power? It seemed stuff along those lines was only done as practice or in the midst of combat or an emergency. Perhaps it was the discipline of the Jedi not to "show off"?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I got an answer to the Sifo Dyas question from someone who knows pretty much everything about the EU. Here goes:
"Who is Sifo Dyas? The reason they left this out(it was originally going to be explained by Yoda when he and Obi-Wan deactivated the Temple transmission), was for time, and also, the novel that immediately preceeded the movie, titled Labyrinth of Evil, dealt almost exclusively in that question. In the novel, Obi-Wan and Anakin lead an assault on Cato Nemoidia (which Obi-Wan mentions in the film "That business on Cato Nemoidia doesn't count"), to capture Nute Gunray. Gunray escapes, but in his haste, he leaves behind a holonet receiver which is specifically tuned to get messages from Darth Sidious.
Basically, the novel deals with Obi-Wan and Anakin hunting for Sidious, and in the process, unraveling the mystery of who ordered the Clone Army. First of all, Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master. It seems, Qui-Gon Jinn, Count Dooku, and Syfo Dyas were all good friends, and all held similar beliefs in the failing of the Republic, and each defied the council in small ways when they saw it necessary. Qui-Gon believed that the Jedi were losing touch with the Force, and regularly ignored the council when the Force led him another way. Dooku was obsessed with antiques and Sith artifacts, and Syfo-Dyas believed that the Republic could be reformed and was worth saving.
After the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo, and Qui-Gon first confronted Darth Maul, Syfo-Dyas sensed the Dark sides power growing, and a great conflict coming. While Qui-Gon was escorting Queen Amidala to Naboo, Dooku and Syfo-Dias created a plan. They pieced together that a Sith Lord was manipulating the Trade Federation into starting a war. Syfo-Dias would secretly begin to create an army that would be totally loyal to the Republic to fight off this threat, and Dooku, with his immense knowledge of Sith artifacts and history, would hunt down the Sith Lord. So, Syfo Dias ordered the Clone Army from the Kamino, arranging payment through the Jedi Council (without their knowledge), and telling them to start setting up, and a Template would be provided later.
Then comes the betrayal. Supposedly, the death of Qui-Gon is what essentially sent Dooku over the deep end. Afterwards, Dooku either found Sidious, or Sidious found him. Either way, Dooku became the new apprentice and spilled his guts about their plan. The first act Dooku committed as a Sith was to return to the Jedi Temple, erase Kamino from the archives, and murder Syfo-Dyas, erasing all evidence of the Army. The murder of Syfo-Dyas, supposedly caused by a heated arguement between the two regarding Qui-Gon and the Republic, is what caused Dooku to be expelled from the Jedi Order (It's not something the council does lightly.) Dooku finds Jango Fett, and delivers sends him to Kamino, with a single modification to the Clone Programming, the inclusion of Order 66 (It is worth mentioning that the initial prototype clones, the ARC Troopers, do not follow Order 66 because they do not have any of the 'Docile' training to make them follow orders.)"
Now... this brings up 2 questions:
1) Was Sifo Dyas really a member of the council or did he just lie to the Kaminoans to appear to have authority? If he was really on the council, you'd think he would've been in the room in Ep 1.
2) If Mace and the Council knew Dooku had killed Sifo Dyas, why did Mace dismiss the idea of his involvement in Amidala's assassination attempt by saying he used to be a Jedi and that such things were not in his character. True, he was talking about assassination, not in-the-heat-of-the-moment manslaughter, which is what he thinks happened... but it's still rather positive thinking on Mace's part.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
If "the business on Cato Nemoidia" made it into the movies from that book, it must be one of the more credible of the EU-books, no? Sounds like good summer reading, though I wish I had stopped reading your post at "then comes the betrayal". :.)
[ June 09, 2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Nim' ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NIm- I dont buy the "balance to the Force thing.
I dont agree- the Old Republic at the time of Anakin's turn to Hepatitis- was corrupt, ineffective and already under the influence of a Sith Lord, countless had dies in the Sith Lord's pointless war and one entire race of the Seperatists sounded like a Charlie Chan inpersonation.
Then the Jedi get wiped out and it's supposed to be "balance"?
Naaaa.
Aban, that book's explanation is waaay to convienent- besides, why would the death od Dooku's pal lead him to become a Sith- replacment for the guy that offed his friend no less!
I find it tough to believe Sifo Dias was alive in Ep I.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Jason: You're misquoting me, I didn't say the old republic was alright, I said that the Jedi Council was alright. They were unable to adapt fast enough to the threat due to having been so cleverly infiltrated and having their enemy as a boss, but they were not a destructive or negative influence on the galaxy.
quote:countless had dies in the Sith Lord's pointless war and one entire race of the Seperatists sounded like a Charlie Chan inpersonation.
Why are you dragging the Nemoidians and the casualties of the Clone Wars into this? I was responding to Andrew's question about the Chosen One "bringing balance to the force". It pertains to the Jedi and the Sith.
Also, DAMN! Lay off the sauce! Vodka-stained fingers may dissolve the lettering on the keyboard (surgeon general), if you're not careful you'll be moping tomorrow.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
My understanding is that Sifo Dias meets his untimely end either shortly before or during the events of Episode I.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim': Jason: You're misquoting me, I didn't say the old republic was alright, I said that the Jedi Council was alright. They were unable to adapt fast enough to the threat due to having been so cleverly infiltrated and having their enemy as a boss, but they were not a destructive or negative influence on the galaxy.
quote:countless had dies in the Sith Lord's pointless war and one entire race of the Seperatists sounded like a Charlie Chan inpersonation.
Why are you dragging the Nemoidians and the casualties of the Clone Wars into this? I was responding to Andrew's question about the Chosen One "bringing balance to the force". It pertains to the Jedi and the Sith.
Also, DAMN! Lay off the sauce! Vodka-stained fingers may dissolve the lettering on the keyboard (surgeon general), if you're not careful you'll be moping tomorrow.
DAMMIT! I NEEED some "sauce right now! I cant believe that "bring balance to the force" only pertains to the Jedi/Sith equation. Yoda and Obi Wan describe the Force as "an energy field that's in all living things", not just in a few indivuals. That means that an "imbalance" might not have anything to do with either the Sith or Jedi if the galaxy is in the moral crapper.
The cahrlie Chan aliens were noted for their unintentional comedic value only.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
And my angle was that the eradication of the Jedi and the subsequent passing of Yoda, Palpatine and Vader served as a great Force dispersion and reabsorbation.
Or just maybe the prophecy faltered and the rebalancing never happened, as it supposedly should have if Anakin had had a good upbringing and become the youngest Jedi Master ever.
That the "bringing balance to the force" would concern all things in the galaxy feels to metaphysical an explanation to me. It's easier to think of the Force as it influences and is influenced by the people we've seen having rapport with it these 20+ years.
Besides, I don't think Palpatine was blood-thirsty enough to have killed enough people during his reign to top what amount of Force was eschewed during the Jedi Purge. I do believe the balance pertained to the Jedi.
As with Sauron, Palpatine didn't want the death of all things but control of all things and free reign to ordain it as he saw fit, oh and absolute fealty naturally.
Be that as it may, I think the galaxy was more subjugated than scorched. What's more, Palpatine could've reestablished an empire of the Sith and started training force-sensitives like in the Golden Age of the Sith, sending out Sith hotheads to screw up the neighborhood like drunken, horny soldiers but he didn't, he kept to the "two horse town"-recipe.
Had there been more Death Stars, though, it would've been worse, I suppose. The destruction of Alderaan should've been the most terrible and tragic event in all of the six movies, it is a pity it was dealt with so anticlimactically. "*Zap-poof* oh my aching bones I have to sit down a bit".
And Leia, why wasn't she screaming like a Banshee, tearing her hair and clawing after Tarkin, trying to gouge his eyes out and bite off his nose?? She had just cause.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, Leia's lame reaction to her planet (and "dad"!) getting destroyed sucked biiigtime. More Lucas directing. Even if they had her faint- it could have been explained as a "force sensitive" thing later.
I think Alderan's destruction would FAR outweigh any Jedi deaths- we're talking at lests "millions of souls snuffed out" here.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Possibly. If I were to go nixpicky and subjective, though, Yoda's physical and mental reaction to the Jedi being slaughtered was far more manifest than Obi-Wan's in ANH.
And the Jedi that died were very far away from Yoda, compared to Kenobi who was just a few hyperspace-minutes away from Alderaan.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think that was more because Yoda knew them: much in the way even a non force-sensitive like Padme knew Anakin was losing it. YOda probably worked with and trained most of the slain Jedi for years.
Obi Wan's reaction was like suddenly learning of a huge disaster and deathtoll at a place you've never been to: disturbing, but not as shocking as someone you know getting killed.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Plus, it was other force sensitives/Jedi that were dying. There may have been a "louder" disturbance in the force.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Which was exactly my point... The purge of the Jedi and latter deaths of the Force fatcats was what brought balance and served up a clean slate.
The destruction of Alderaan was merely a plot point to establish the threat and resolve of the Empire, I'm positive Lucas or his colleagues payed it no mind when thinking of how to give shape to the Prophecy for "Phantom Menace".
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Okay, I've come back around to R2's memories again. This time, though, I was wondering about Yoda - had the two ever met before ESB? R2 was in Anakin's service for a long time. But I think I can satisfy myself with the answer that R2 kept himself in the maintenance or hangar bays, while Yoda was mostly in the Council chambers. It's possible they saw each other in the halls, but that doesn't mean they ever really met.
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah... I don't think we ever saw droids in the Temple, except Obi Wan's trip to the lab and his use of the analysis droids in ep 2. What's the time line on R2's ownership. He was just assigned to the Queen's ship in Ep 1, was in service to Padme as a senator in Ep 2, but was Anakin's astromech aboard his fighter in Ep 3. One could assume that he started being used by Anakin sometime after their marriage.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
How did anyone NOT get that they were married, or at least in a relationship? Oh, gee, the senator's pregnant and there's no obvious father, I wonder what male she spends a lot of time with...
Speaking of the droids, though, I remember the question of their ownership coming up while I was reading some of the EU books. Seems like whoever wants them, takes them, with no thought to the fact that it's apparently Luke that's the actual owner at that point.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Maybe he's considered community property amongst the inner circle. There also seems to be the tendancy to treat (especially) R2 as though he's alive, so maybe they don't really consider anyone as owning him/it at that point.
In the post RotJ stuff, does 3PO end up with Leia?
Regarding Padme's condition and her relationship with Anakin, do we have any reason to believe that Obi Wan or the other members of the council spend all that much time with her? She's a member of the Senate, sure, but how do they know she's not having an affair with someone, or, heck, even that she's not gotten married to someone thats not Anakin? I work with a bunch of people, but if one of them got pregnant, I wouldn't automatically assume that it was by someone I know.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Yes. 3P0 becomes a nursemaid, of sorts.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
As long as he doesn't become a wetnurse. "Curse my metal nipples!" Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
They weren't plump enough.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
"You betta be looking at my restraining bolt."
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Outstanding.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Finally saw it. Problem with living in your wife's home town, you're dependent on her relatives for babysitting duties and she doesn't want to be dependent on them for anything but the most vital occasions, and it seems Star Wars films don't count. . .
Why did Padme look so haggard in this film? Is this meant to imply her condition? Or remind us of the fact she's about ten to fifteen years older than her husband? In my experience pregnant women bloom. OK, granted I've only been around one pregnant woman for any period of time, but. . . And what time frame are we talking about here?! Throughout most of the film she's skinny as a rake, when she arrives on planet Mordor she's maybe got a slight belly (and a fetching maternity top that's almost identical to one Kate had), and next thing you know she's giving birth to two full-term twins!
I'm still in two minds about whether Dooku/Tyrannus knows Palpatine is Sidious. The key moments are: Dooku telling Kenobi that Sidious is controlling the Senate in EpII, and Dooku's reaction on hearing Palpatine telling Anakin to execute him. These scens take on whole different meanings depending on ho clued-in Dooku is.
Do the Jedfi ever know Dooku is a Sith Lord? Or is he just Count Dooku, ex-Jedi, Separatist leader, to them?
Sidous, Sifo Dyas. . . Hmm.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
They know he's gone all Dark Side, Yoda said he sensed it in him. But that doesn't necessarily make him a Sith.
Speaking of the Yoda/Dooku interaction, why exactly does Yoda bother holding the huge pipe from falling on Obi-wan and Anakin? Wouldn't it be faster to just slide them out of the way?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Or, for that matter, if he can hold it up, couldn't he even more easily deflect it?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote: Sidous, Sifo Dyas. . . Hmm.
Sidous = Sifo - fo + dyas - ya + ou
I don't think you can be more specific.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Maybe someone's discussed this before, but another way to "restore balance" would be if the Sith and Jedi annihilated each other, and then there was no use of dark or light sides. Luke just has to fall on his lightsabre and all is in balance, right? Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Time frames in general are kind of odd in this film. Like, it sure seems as if most of the latter part takes place in the space of an evening, including multiple trips to multiple planets. Palpatine picks up on Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting and orders his shuttle ready, and then gets to the planet just a few minutes after they finish?
Lucas seems to have an occasionally wonky sense of timing, in the sense of when various things happen in relation to other things. Like, Luke and Han and Leia all leave Hoth at the same time. Luke skips out to train with Yoda, while the Falcon spends several hours running away from the Imperial fleet before sneaking off to Bespin. They hang out in Bespin for, well, for how long until Darth Vader invites them to dinner? The Han/Leia story seems to take place over just a few days, while Luke seems to be on Dagobah for weeks or more.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the chase through the asteroid belt (and hiding within) takes a couple of days and then the trip to Bespin takes several weeks.
Probably a couple of months for Luke's training overall.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, here's the thing. Since they leave Hoth in different directions, we know the three planets' spatial relationship forms a triangle. Luke's combined travel distance from Hoth to Dagobah and from Dagobah to Bespin has to be longer than the distance from Hoth to Bespin. Two sides of a triangle cannot add up to less than the third side. So, even accounting for a possible day or two in the asteroid belt, and a day or two on Bespin (both of which seem generous, really), the only way Luke, having spent at least a couple weeks on Dagobah, could have arrived at Bespin when he did was if his X-wing flies very very significantly faster than the Millennium Falcon.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I thought the hyperdrive of the Millennium Falcon was non-operational at the time, thus explaining why it took them so long to get there and allowing time for Luke's training.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, if they didn't use hyperdrive, wouldn't we have to assume Hoth and Bespin were in the same system? Either that, or Luke actually had quite a few decades to train with Yoda.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Again, science fantasy, not science fiction.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Which doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't obey basic temporal logic.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Omega:
quote:They know he's gone all Dark Side, Yoda said he sensed it in him. But that doesn't necessarily make him a Sith.
His name is Darth Tyranus, that makes him a Sith. Furthermore, he discussed the finer points of being (and not being) a Sith with Assaj Ventress in the "Clone Wars" miniseries.
Lee:
quote:I'm still in two minds about whether Dooku/Tyrannus knows Palpatine is Sidious. The key moments are: Dooku telling Kenobi that Sidious is controlling the Senate in EpII, and Dooku's reaction on hearing Palpatine telling Anakin to execute him. These scens take on whole different meanings depending on ho clued-in Dooku is.
Also *koff*, his having trained and served under Sidious/Palpatine for more than ten years. I'm sure he got one or two peaks in under the hood (no plumbing-pun intended).
He knew exactly who Sidious was, that's why he could do such a great job at pretending to give a toss about the Separatist movement and then throw them to the wolves to assume his place under the most powerful man in the galaxy, or so he thought! Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
His name is Darth Tyranus, that makes him a Sith. Furthermore, he discussed the finer points of being (and not being) a Sith with Assaj Ventress in the "Clone Wars" miniseries.
And the Jedi didn't see any of that, which was the question I was addressing.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
As for Palpy and his merry band of disposable apprentices - why does he suddenly care about one of them enough to have him rebuilt. Especially after he failed to take out Obi-Wan?
It just seems odd that he'd go to the trouble instead of just letting him die. At that point, the galaxy is yours, most of the jedi are dead - isn't an apprentice the most dangerous thing you could have as a sith? If Yoda or old Ben come back just waste them yourself.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Toadkiller: As for Palpy and his merry band of disposable apprentices - why does he suddenly care about one of them enough to have him rebuilt. Especially after he failed to take out Obi-Wan?
Well, Palpatine has put a lot of time and energy into forging a friendship with Anakin and gently guiding him towards the dark side of the force. Perhaps Palpatine, in spite of being an evil bastard, had a genuine affection for him? Of course, that doesn't explain why Palpatine would want to see Luke take out the old man about twenty years later. Maybe Palpatine just has a thing for hot, young men with huge lightsabres?
quote:At that point, the galaxy is yours, most of the jedi are dead - isn't an apprentice the most dangerous thing you could have as a sith? If Yoda or old Ben come back just waste them yourself.
The galaxy's a big place to try and control. Perhaps Palpatine feels secure enough in his ability to manipulate and control Vader that he feels it'd be better to have such power on his side under his thumb rather than kill him. Besides let someone young take care of all the dirty work involved in running an empire.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It was implied in the film (and specified behind-the-scenes) that Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's creation. I'd say that constitutes a vested interest in him. Even after he becomes damaged merchandise, he's still better than anyone around. Until Luke comes of age and asserts his Force presence, at which point Palpy decides to opt for a new model...
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Palpy just likes them young Skywalker boys...
Tim, if Bespin were in the same system as the asteroid field (the field could have been the ort cloud of a system I guess) the Falcon would still have needed weeks at sublight to cross the system and get within Bespin's atmosphere (assuming they maintained radio silence to avoid IMperial detection).
It's a stretch.
West End Games decided that the falcon had a emergency hyperdrive that operates far slower than a standard version (accounting for the weeks of training on Dagobah).
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Or they could have simply been running on only 4 of the eight cylinders on the back of the MF. Sort of like an SUV on Gasahol.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
OTOH, although all this happened long before Unca Einstein was born, we could expect some of his stuff to hold even in the SW universe. Han, Leia and the Three Stooges might have spent just a few days crossing the distance from Hoth to the asteroids to Bespin at high sublight, but it would have looked like months to an outsider such as Luke (who cheated by using hyperdive).
Now, the real question here is, are Hoth, the asteroids and Bespin all in the Anoat system? And if not, which ones aren't?
...Uh, that is, this is the real question somewhere else than on a threat titled "RotS"...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:Two sides of a triangle cannot add up to less than the third side.
It occurs to me that this isn't necessarily true if you're dealing with non-Euclidian space. Actually, since our space is Riemannian, not Euclidian, it may not even be true in our universe for certain circumstances. Either way, hyperdrive does make even this questionable. But then, it effectively adds up to what you said about Luke's X-Wing being faster, just with a caveat that this may be a property as much of the route taken as of the ships themselves.
So, uh, yeah, backup FTL drive. Or stars that are really really close together and relativistic travel. Though Boba Fett observed where the Falcon was headed at whatever speed, and he and Vader arrived at Bespin shortly before the Falcon. We could probably derrive some information from that.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
When Han first says "Lando", Leia thinks he's talking about a system, so she seems to be expecting Han to be looking for another star system. Are there any clues as to what Han was scanning for or looking at on the screen when he says "Lando"?
Han then goes on to say that Bespin is "pretty far, but I think we can make it."
I've never gotten the impression that he's talking about intrasystem travel, although, in space, "pretty far" is a higly relative term.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
From the shooting script
quote:
HAN: Then we've got to find a safe port somewhere around here. Got any ideas?
LEIA: No. Where are we?
HAN: The Anoat system.
LEIA: Anoat system. There's not much there.
HAN: No. Well, wait. This is interesting. Lando.
He points to a computer mapscreen on the control panel. Leia slips out of her chair and moves next to the handsome pilot. Small light points representing several systems flash by on the computer screen.
LEIA: Lando system?
HAN: Lando's not a system, he's a man. Lando Calrissian. He's a card player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.
LEIA: Thanks.
HAN: Bespin. It's pretty far, but I think we can make it.
Aside: For years I thought Solo said "I know that system" instead of Anoat system.
This kinda implies they are in an astroid field in the Anoat System.
Hoth is a separate system:
quote:
VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moves out of light-speed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith continue the trend of having our characters hop around the galaxy in short order (despite Solo's boast about the Falcon being the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy).
Padme and Anakin quickly zoom from Tattooine to Geonosis to rescue Kenobi. Perhaps the Separatists planned to wait until the next holiday before feeding Kenobi to the lyger, er, nexu. Meanwhile Yoda had time to fly from Coruscant to Kamino, pick up the Clones and fly to Geonosis.
As already mentioned, Padme and Palpatine fly from Coruscant to the far reaches of Lava World in very short time.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
It occurs to me that we could interpret "point five past lightspeed" to be the Falcon's non-hyperdrive capability. If you're trying to avoid imperials, or in combat, that might be far more important than how fast your hyperdrive goes. Especially given that hyperdrives are freaking insanely fast anyway, meaning minor variation shouldn't matter that much.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...Except that "AotC" seems to suggest a hyperdrive orders of magnitude slower than previously thought. Behold an analysis that also gives an order-of-magnitude upgrade to the definition of "convoluted".
Perhaps this galaxy far, far away just happens to be a particularly small galaxy?
...Possibly because of the long, long ago thing. I mean, things have been expanding since then, according to prevailing theory, right?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Well, ignoring for a second the fact that galaxies themselves don't expand (much), just the universe they float around in, it'd have to be a really, really, REALLY small one if the Falcon could reach "the other side" of it in mere days in ESB according to Generic Imperial Officer #1138 with a non-bizarro hyperdrive.
Stop this discussion now.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Why - we're just getting pointless!
Which is, after all, the point!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
You can hurt yourself with a point. But whoever heard of somebody hurting himself with something dull?
Uh, hold back the anecdotes. Instead, tell me why I should take this exclamation of a GIO with a non-bizarro hyperbole at face value? I mean, wouldn't Sgt. Schultz inform good Col. Klink that the escapees "may be halfway across the Atlantic by now" two hours after they departed by foot?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Leigh Brackett's original draft of TESB treated the planets much like an old movie serial or pulp SF, where all the planets are in the same system; Dagobah being Venus, Hoth being Mars, and Bespin being Jupiter (reachable only by going through the asteroid field). Were this the case, you could argue that Luke got where he was going fast because Hoth and Dagobah were in close proximity orbit-wise (both on the same side of the sun), but Bespin was waaaaay on the other side of the solar system, at its furthest from the other two.
Or, simpler, it's just a fairy tale.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If they're IN the "Anoat system" - why would Leia answer "There's not much there..." she would rather say "There's not much here". That's besides the point, though... or is it!?! Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
She's recalling the Anoat System from memory rather than speaking of it as her current location.
Han's reaction of "No. Well wait..." kind of suggests he sees something in the Anoat system itself, but the screen shows several nearby systems as well, according to the script snippet, so he could have just noticed one of those.
Here's a little something though, we don't really know how long Han and company were on the run from Vader between Hoth and the asteroid field since, as pointed out, they're different systems. Could've been a week for all we know. Everyone just happened to be at the same point in their laundry cycle when we picked up the action at Anoat.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Oh. I never considered that.
So, essentially, the Falcon could have gone smoothly to hyperspace immediately after leaving Hoth VI, only to be intercepted by the Empire in the Anoat system - and the initial blasts she took during that intercept would have knocked down Chewbacca's repairs, resulting in the infamous "Watch this - uh-oh..." moment.
Fine with me. The obvious question raised here: how does one intercept a hyperspeeding target? The EU solution of special Interdictor ships doesn't seem to be very practical, nor is it supported by the movies. There must be some way to prevent ships from jumping, though - why else was Grievous' flagship still hanging around after performing the major coup of capturing Chancellor Palpatine? Logically, that ship (or some other ship trusted with the prisoner) should have departed immediately, even if the rest of the Separatist fleet had a suicide mission of causing losses to the local Republic fleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, they looked to be pretty close to the planet, as I recall. And they were rather surrounded, too, which might cause line-of-sight problems.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Not to mention that the whole thing was planned from the beginning by Palpatine.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Palpatine as John Lovitz....."I MEANT to do that"
I seriously doubt that Bespin is anywhere close to Hoth. You just don't build secret bases anywhere near activity like Cloud City. Lando stated that the empire knew about them but left them alone. I pretty much believed that DV had destroyers dropping into uncharted systems to launch prope droids and possibly some type of communications array so the droids could com back to the fleet. Then they headed for the next system. Had a SD been in the vicinity of Hoth when the probe droid got waxed it would have immediately been on top of the base and starting blockade/harrassment actions. Instead, the fleet assembles and then approaches, giving the Rebs time to prepare.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I'd also think that if Hoth/Bespin/Dagoba(?) are all in the same system then Vader might notice Yoda's proximity....
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: I seriously doubt that Bespin is anywhere close to Hoth. You just don't build secret bases anywhere near activity like Cloud City...
This is STAR WARS, after all. Logic doesn't really enter into it.
And anyway, regardless if there was any real thought in the final TESB for those planets to be in the same solar system, you can see how the idea would make sense in that Flash Gordon/pulp-sf/Edgar Rice Burroughs sense, Venus having been popularly imagined as a swamp planet for so long, Mars as a cold dying, world, and Jupiter being inhabitable in some odd way.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Personally, I think Lucas lacked too great-an-imagination - he basically lifted Bespin from "Stratos" the city in the clouds from the Original Star Trek episode "The Cloud Miners". It's well known he is a big Trek Fan (most probably TOS).
Also - he's very simple/plays-down/condescending towards the audience in that he has to make every planet VASTLY different from the other/each a particular 'environment'.
That covers a lot of the disparate environments on Earth.
There was even a brief glimpse of a giant-garden planet in ROTS where Aayala Secura was killed by the Clone Troopers.
Some of the double-ups are probably
Kashyyyk/Endor Alderaan/Naboo Ilum/Hoth
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Is the idea of a city in the clouds so exclusive to "Star Trek" that it George Lucas must have specifically stolen the idea from "The Cloud Minders?"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Is the idea of a city in the clouds so exclusive to "Star Trek" that it George Lucas must have specifically stolen the idea from "The Cloud Minders?"
Yes.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Ever watch "The Jetsons"?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Frogmurderer:
quote:I'd also think that if Hoth/Bespin/Dagoba(?) are all in the same system then Vader might notice Yoda's proximity....
Even if they were in the same system, I don't think so. The reason Yoda chose Dagoba wasn't just because of it being uninhabited but that it was so teeming with lifeforms and the Force that he could hide in the "static".
It would be pretty dumb if the Falcon would escape Hoth during heavy pursuit, hide on a rock and then go to another planet in the same system.
Besides, Lando said of Vader "They got here before you did". If the three planets were in the same system then everyone was already there.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Also, didn't Obi-Wan tell Luke to go to the "Dagobah system"? If it was in the same system as Hoth, he was already there.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moves out of light-speed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
Hoth is the system. The Rebels were on the sixth planet of the system.
Obi-Wan does tell Luke to go to the Dagobah System.
Additionally (tangent to this topic): The Rebel Base on Yavin IV was on the fourth moon of the planet Yavin.
The second Death Star was built in orbit of the Moon of Endor (either the planet is Endor or the moon is).
According to Tarkin "Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration..." yet the scout ships reach Dantooine in relatively short time. Did they leave the Death Star or were they nearby and simply ordered to investagate?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I think he meant that the population (if any) of Dantooine was so small that the destruction of it would not instill terror in the galaxy. Alderann, however, was populated by possibly billions of people, the deaths of which would be more terrifying than that of a few thousand Rebels.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That is a nonstandard definition of remote.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Maybe he meant remote as in no one remembers or cares about the planet, the demonstration needs to take place in the midrim or something to shake up the neighborhood.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Maybe lightspeed does not equal hyperspace?
Two forms of "real fast travel" ?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Much in the same way "lasers" dont mean Lasers in Star Wars but some sort of particle beam that is obviously slower than light but packs a punch greater than a mere laser?
quote: Personally, I think Lucas lacked too great-an-imagination - he basically lifted Bespin from "Stratos" the city in the clouds from the Original Star Trek episode "The Cloud Miners". It's well known he is a big Trek Fan (most probably TOS).
He's also an Asimov fan. Which explains why Courscant is obviously Trantos from the Foundation books.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I suppose Courscant may very well be derived from Trantos.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
er...Trantor actually (my crappy typing there, sorry). The way it's shown in te preqiels is exactly as the capital of the Galactic Empire from Foundation is described. A planet completely covered with cities untill even the nightside is visible from space for all the lights.
I really hope- in the event a Foundation movie is ever made, that ILM does the effects, so they can use the same CGI files. It looked great.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Well, yeah, but Trantor was all underground with hardly anything happening on the surface at all. What we see of Coruscant suggests the whole surface is just buildings separated by streets.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Perhaps it's an issue of succession (as in "forest growth succession"): at times, the planet is all covered over with buildings, then tall spires emerge atop the cover, then streets are laid between the spires, then this grows into another impenetrable layer of urban engineering, until new spires emerge...
(BTW, does Coruscant still have seas and polar icecaps? It's a bit hard to tell from the visuals, without DVD stop-motion reference. Trantor did away with those...)
In any case, Trantor may be an archetype, but I'm not quite convinced it's the earliest one. Certainly it got plenty of intermediate successors before Lucas came along. My favorite is Galactopolis from Syd Jordan's "Jeff Hawke" comics, lovingly rendered in classic riveted-and-perforated-steel shapes.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
From the Wikipedia entry for Coruscant
quote:The concept of a city covering an entire planet is not entirely new. The planet Trantor in Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels is probably the first fictional planet to be totally urbanized, but it was not the last. Indeed, one of the draft names of Coruscant was "Jhantor", in homage to Asimov's work. Trantor was entirely covered in city except for 100 square kilometers devoted to the gardens of the Imperial Palace; the same is stated to be true of Coruscant in Shadows of the Empire.
And, from an essay about Star Wars:
quote:While he was completing his final touches on American Graffiti in February 1973, Lucas started sketching rough ideas for his film. He wrote every morning, and spent his afternoons and evenings researching fairy tales, mythology and the writings of Joseph Campbell (in particular, The Hero With a Thousand Faces) and Carlos Castaneda notably Tales of Power). He also consumed every work of science fiction, from the classics of the genre by Edgar Rice Burroughs and Alex Raymond to the more contemporary tales of Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, E.E. "Doc" Smith, and Arthur C. Clarke. But George knew that he was much more of a conceptualist than a writer, and admitted to having great difficulty getting his ideas down on paper. He was still struggling with those ideas when he first met Ralph McQuarrie, an illustrator for Boeing Aircraft who had also worked for NASA, and asked him for suggestions how to visualize his concepts for the screen.
When his first $10,000 check from 20th Century-Fox arrived in September 1973, George was hard at work on a script. "I was fascinated by the futuristic society, the idea of rocket ships and lasers up against somebody with a stick," he later commented, but he still had problems fleshing out the characters. Lucas looked everywhere for ideas for Star Wars and borrowed very liberally from his sources. The major influence on his writing was Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon serials. Light bridges, cloud cities, space swords, blasters, video screens, medieval costumes and aerial battles were all lifted from the crude serials of the thirties. From Asimov's Foundation trilogy, he incorporated ideas dealing with political intrigue on a galactic level; from Frank Herbert's Dune, notions of rare spices (ultimately dropped), galactic traders and spacing guilds and a desert planet; from Edgar Rice Burroughs's John Carter of Mars, banthas and huge flying birds (also discarded); from E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman saga came his notions about the Jedi knights and the Force. He also borrowed ideas from his own THX 1138, including the robot policeman (who became stormtroopers) and the underground dwellers (Jawas). Star Wars would be derivative of every great science fiction theme and yet, at the same time, would remain completely original.
From what I remember of reading the Foundation novels, I think Alderaan appears in it, only with a different spelling.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't remember anything like an Alderaan in them. Aldebaran?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Maybe. There was a planet with a name that reminded me of Alderaan.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, Aldebaran is a real star, so anything based on that would hardly count.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I actually think Timothy Zahn coined the name "Courscant" in the Heir To The Empire novels (which Lucas actually read/ revised and approved of before they could be published). I'd never heard anything about it before then, but I suppose it might have existed in the West End Games RPG.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm surprised Lucas had time to make Star Wars while "consuming every work of science fiction." I suppose prior to making Raiders of the Lost Ark he read every commentary on the Torah ever written, and for Willow he founded an offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn to better learn about magic.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
I don't remember any planets with names similar to Alderaan in Foundation. There was a Korellia.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I'm surprised Lucas had time to make Star Wars while "consuming every work of science fiction." I suppose prior to making Raiders of the Lost Ark he read every commentary on the Torah ever written, and for Willow he founded an offshoot of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn to better learn about magic.
Lucas is a God according to may Star Wars sites and he planned every aspect of all six movies while still in the womb.
....hey, it's still not as crazy as Scientology.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
According to Wikipedia, the Foundation series has a planet called "Anacreon", but that's the closest it seems to come. And that's certainly not very close.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I was all fired up to transcribe the lyrics to that bawdy hit of the Old Republic, "To Alderaan in Heaven," but it is way too hard to do.
quote:The news through CORUSCANT immediately flew; When PALPATINE pretended to give himself Airs "If these rebels are suffer'd their Scheme to persue, "Lord Vader a Daughter may spy above the Stairs. "Hark, already they cry, "In transports of Joy, "Away to the Sons of ALDERAAN we'll fly, "And there, with good Fellows, we'll learn to entwine "Midichlorians of LEIA with MON MOTHMA'S Spine.
(Spine as in, like, willingness to stand up to the Empire, see.)
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Very infpiring.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: (BTW, does Coruscant still have seas and polar icecaps? It's a bit hard to tell from the visuals, without DVD stop-motion reference. Trantor did away with those...)
Well, according to the X-Wing novels it does still have polar ice caps. No mention of any seas, though.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
They must have a strong chapstick market there, then.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I actually think Timothy Zahn coined the name "Courscant" in the Heir To The Empire novels (which Lucas actually read/ revised and approved of before they could be published).
This exact question came up before, and I can't remember the answer to I'm asking it again... Did the Zahn trilogy come out before or after TIE Fighter? Because Coruscant was definitely named in that game.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
B4. HttE was, I think, published in 1992, DFR and TLC both in 1993.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
There were a few paintings of Coruscant in one of the early "art of starwars" books, (probably concepts for the RotJ draft that had 2 Death Stars over the Imperial capital or something.) Anyway, i distinctly remember one painting of the polar region and some blurb about the lack of oceans means that the planet's water supplies are drawn largly from artificially melting the ice caps. More likely though, the millenia of development and the coutless number of layered construction porbably means that there are abandoned sections of the deep cites that have probably become flooded, in effect becoming underground oceans, which can be pumped to the surface.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or just used as drinking water for the population.
Not that even earth-sized polar icecaps would be sufficent if the rest of the entire planet was populated.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
With so much built on top of other structures... what happens if there's a deep structure collapse? The idea of long abandoned sections of city is highly plausible. But what if there was an explosion or an earthquake or something and a deep level structure collapsed? Wouldn't that effect everything on top of it?
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
If the first floor of a block of flats collapses everything on top of it is going down, but imagine on Coruscant, the lower levels probaby support more than one block of flats, if something collapsed down below the surface massive chunks of the city would probably cave in to the hole.
I think I read somewhere that there's still one surface sea kept and maintained for tourists and people on the planet to go to on holiday, called the Great Western sea, all the rest of the seas are carefully tended as giant underground reservoirs.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Yep. Makes for an interesting story/plot idea, no?
While not big on technobabble, and therefore no direct evidence, there still must be inertial dampeners, artificial gravity, etc... in the Star Wars universe. Perhaps those weak sections or sections built on fault lines are reinforced by some kind of protective field or barrier.
Or maybe they should be Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm talking about the sections of city first built on the planet centuries ago. The places noone has entered in 500 years.
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
Well they probably would (or should) have put something down there akin to a forcefield or some other wierd magical technobabble barrier to stop structural collapses or earthquakes and then just walled off those sections of the city like old sewers and underground railroads are done in some places.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well if the structure is THAT dense then I imagine a sub-surface collapse would have little, if any effect on the upper levels sice I imagine allot of the weight of the structures is spread sideways as much as down. In a sense I suppose the city itself constitutes a secondary crust an as such would probably behave as one, continental drifts and mas/density shifts included. As to what long term effects such movements would make, for the most part I think the worst most building would suffer would be some distortion of the lower levels, perhaps some cracks and whatnot. Basically what you'd get in a house built on less than stable foundations. I suppose in a catastrophic senario, where a large section of the undercity suddenly collapses, the results would be quite nasty on a local scale. As for earth quakes and the like, I imagine that most of the pressures on the planet's magma would be released though thousands of ancient geo-thermic power stations.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The oldcomic book Alien Legion has a "corperate planet" that's like Courscant- completely covered in city. The imported mass used to build all the structures required the planet's citizens t build giant mass-drivers just o keep their planet in it's proper orbit.
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but I'd almost bet a nickel on it. (Thats a Canadian nickel worth about 3 cents American)
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