I have to say that I grew up with the original Star Wars trilogy.
When I heard that Lucas was going to make the parts that he couldn't make first time round, I was excited.
But my excitement turnd to anger whan I saw TPM, was somewhat mollified by TAotC, and I have not seen TRotS.
My point is this: Lucas could have made the prequals straight after the original trilogy screened, or any time thereafter, if the need to tell the whole story was paramount (no pun intended). But he waited almost 30 years, to "ensure that the technology was in place to tell the story properly".
I contend that in the intervening years, he forgot the plot and tried to remember what was in his head originaly, and failed miserably.
I think he should go back, strip out all the confusing and uneeded visuals and get the original screenwriter to re-word the scripts.
Oh, and refrain from any involvement with Star Wars from this point out.
Just an opinion.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Repeat after me. Lucas didn't have a definite story in mind when he made the original trilogy.
When Lucas made Star Wars (later subtitled A New Hope), he kept reworking and reworking his various ideas, plots and scenes. Place names changed, people changed, etc... An early concept had Skywalker as a General, the hero as Deak Starkiller, Alderaan was the capital city of the Empire and the Jedi were more like Shoguns or Ninjas.
As the story evolved, he tucked away the ideas and concepts he didn't use and saved them for later. One of the early story concepts for Star Wars even had a character named Mace Windu.
Even after Empire Strikes Back Lucas didn't have a firm direction in mind. Look at the rough draft for "Revenge of the Jedi." All the basic elements and scenes are there, they are just mixed up really well.
It's clear, however, that Lucas did have the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker pretty well in mind when, 30 years later, he turned his attention to making the prequil trilogy. The events from Phantom Menace through Revenge of the Sith flow together very well, especially with the double-dealing macanations of Darth Sidious tying all three movies together.
But these ideas weren't in place in 1983 when Return of the Jedi premiered.
Were the Prequles necessary? Maybe. Maybe not. Aren't all films personal indulgence on some level?
But, by the time Star Wars was relabled "Episode IV, A New Hope" the fans wondered what episodes I-III were all about.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
"Prequel" God, it's been spelled three different ways already.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
In my opion, the PREQUELS were completely self-indulgent: I'M GEORGE LUCAS GODDAMIT! LOOK AT THE UNIVERSE ONLY I COULD CREATE... etc. The original trilogy isn't a classic because of the special effects. I think that's where Lucas went astray. The original WAS mindblowing, visually, for its time, but it's strengths lay in the care given to the story and characters. You could tell that it came from the heart. The new trilogy, on the other hand, seems to me to come from someplace closer to George's ass: his wallet. In these new films, all I saw was Lucas basking in his own mythos, and coming up with all sorts of merchandising ideas. I mean, he had Yoda plugging Pepsi, for Chrissake.
On the other hand, I AM a bitter old bastard, so that may have coloured my opinion somewhat...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: "Prequel" God, it's been spelled three different ways already.
Prequil. Like Nyquil. Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Veers: "Prequel" God, it's been spelled three different ways already.
B.J.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Jason's spelling foibles are sent to him from a higher plame.
I suspect that George Lucas would make a really incredible producer. I.E. not director. OTOH, there is some great stuff in the prequels and I find it difficult to believe they were motivated entirely by profit. I think we tend to be a little blinded having grown up on the Holy Trilogy. If you took these out of the context of Eps 4-6, they'd still be making pretty high marks. Go see Sith before making up your mind. It's quite a lot better.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bones McCoy: all I saw was Lucas basking in his own mythos, and coming up with all sorts of merchandising ideas. I mean, he had Yoda plugging Pepsi, for Chrissake.
And the original series never had Chewie talking about Burger King?
What exactly is meant by "self-indulgence" here anyway? Are you saying that he made the films just because he could? Exactly when has a film ever been "necessary"?
(And can we throw "I grew up with the original trilogy" into the Big Can Of Overused Cliches That Must Never Be Used Again In A Serious Converation?)
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
Well, when i grew up, with the original trilogy, "self-indulgence" meant Lucas making movies just so he could once again be heaped with praise for his 'groundbreaking' visual effects, 'huge' universe, etc. Like I said: "I'm George Lucas! LOOKATME! I'm a genius..." ad nauseum.
He's had one BRILLIANT idea, and he's exploited it till it turned to crap. His own dream, his own vision, and look what he's done to it.
And PsyLiam, you're right: these films weren't "necessary" at all.
But, as I said, I am bitter, so don't take my comments to heart. I actually did enjoy "Sith", somewhat, if only in the sense that it brought closure to the story. Tied everything together quite well. Can't say much for the writing, acting, or direction, but when's the last time you got everything you want, right?
Posted by Albertus (Member # 1635) on :
My use of the term 'indulgence' refers to the overuse of CGI which seems to have been used because the technology was there, rather than because it enhanced or added to the story - in my opinion, he over did it and spoilt, visually, what should have been very powerful and elegant images of the Old Republic.
And poor scripts, which sound as if they were done by kids writing a school play.
I simply won't mention the CGI buffoon that should have been shot on sight. Another indulgence on Lucas' part.
Also, his inclusion of big name actors such as Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor draws away from the story IMHO. The original trilogy had Sir Alec Guinness, a veteran actor, who's heyday was between the 40's and 60's. I would have liked to have seen little known actors in the primary roles. I think having 'stars' in such key roles was an 'indulgence'.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:And the original series never had Chewie talking about Burger King?
Not that I recall. But there was a breakfast cereal called "C-3POs."
The two driods did public service commercials and posters about education and vaccinations.
And we won't even discuss the Toys.
It was mid or late 90s when Lucas signed an agreement with PepsiCo. At that time we joked at work about seeing a commercial depicting a field of Jedi dueling with lightsabers. After one intense moment the camera zooms close to one Jedi knocking back a Pepsi before rejoining the fray.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bones McCoy: He's had one BRILLIANT idea, and he's exploited it till it turned to crap. His own dream, his own vision, and look what he's done to it.
Not to be trite, but aren't American Graffitti and THX-1138 considered to be quite good?
And my Burger King comment wasn't meant to be a literal example. But the point remains...how is Vadar promoting the use of American Express (or whatever) any different that Threepio having his own cereal?
The original series had Alec Guiness, who was famous. The new ones had McGregor, who is famous. The original had an unknown playing Luke, and the new ones had an unknown playing Anakin. Granted, there may have been more "names" in the new one, but isn't that likely to be down to the fame the series had garnered?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Absolutely. I remember some of the interviews with Samuel L. Jackson before TPM came out, and he had wanted to be in the Star Wars movies even if he was just another nameless Stormtrooper behind a helmet. Obviously, Lucas put Sam's talents to better use.
B.J.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by Albertus: Also, his inclusion of big name actors such as Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor
Pretty much everyone prior to TPM (or at least the announcement that McGregor would be in TPM): "Ewan who?"
Some of us would know who he was (face not name) because of Trainspotting, but that film was really more of a cult classic in the U.S. Star Wars made him a star.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also "A Life Less Ordinary". And, er, that episode of ER.
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
"Obviously, Lucas put Sam's talents to better use."
Well, debatably, anyway.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:He's had one BRILLIANT idea, and he's exploited it till it turned to crap. His own dream, his own vision, and look what he's done to it.
First, I would debate that the prequels are crap. Second, Lucas was the creator and writer of the Indiana Jones trilogy, with Raiders of the Lost Ark being one of the best movies ever. That definitely puts his number of brilliant ideas higher than one.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
My somewhat-rambling thoughts on the matter:
George Lucas is a brilliant and innovative guy, he's had a hand in tons of great projects throughout the past three decades. That being said, he's a much better "idea man" (ie, producer and story-writer, though not necessarily screenwriter) than a director.
I think his weaknesses as a director are a lack of experience (since finishing film school, he's only directed six films in more than thirty years, and four of those have been Star Wars movies) and a tendency to get a little too wrapped up in the very particular way he sees things. (I feel that Empire was the best of the OT because Lucas wrote the story but let Kasdan write the script and Kershner do the directing while he took a more supervisory role.)
And of course, there's the over-reliance on special effects, more specifically on CGI. THX-1138 and American Graffiti had rather little in the way of Star Wars-type SFX, and thus allowed for Lucas' directing talents to come through better. But since Star Wars it seems Lucas feels more comfortable working with SFX than with actors. I think it is because he has very specific visions in his head about how he wants something to look and feel, and having 70% of the scene being created on the computer allows for greater accuracy to that. Unfortunately, it can take too much focus away from the characters.
Now, you have to remember that the SW saga was supposed to evoke a certain kind of feeling, that of the old Flash Gordon serials and their ilk. This is a big part of the reason the characters are so one-dimensional and the plots and dialogue are so simple and, at times, cliched. It's intended to be that way, make no mistake. The problem (for me) is that all the CGI ruins the "homage" feeling, and I suspect that others have the same issue.
The thing is, it's also like the old saying about lightning in a bottle. Lucas literally changed the world of cinema with Star Wars, and it's really hard to trump that. You can only make history once.
I don't think Lucas should be bashed for making the story he wants. Nevertheless, there is much to be criticized about the prequels. My own personal gripe is that, in (I presume) trying to be more complex/sophisticated than the OT, there are introduced a number of interweaving plot threads (Sifo Dyas, etc.) that are ultimately left unresolved. My view is that if something isn't necessary to the story then it should be left out. Don't raise a question/mystery for the audience to fixate on now if you're not going to resolve it it later. (The Matrix sequels are another irritating example of this.) Stick with the essential characters and plotline. That's part of what made the OT so good.
-MMoM Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Am I the only person who thinks Sifo-Dyas was a pure MacGuffin, and there's no reason to wonder about him at all?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
But then why bring him up in the first place? That's my whole point.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't get the problem. The Clones were apparently ordered by Sifo Dias. Sifo Dias was dead at the time. Therefore he didn't do it. Therefore someone else did. There was one extremely likely candidate in the form of Palpatine, so it was probably him. I sleep now.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Actually, it was probably Dooku, as Dooku -- not Palpatine -- recruited Jango. Certainly Dooku acted on Palpatine's orders, but I don't think Palpatine would risk blowing his cover by getting involved.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"But then why bring him up in the first place?"
Because, if the cloners had just said "Oh, they were ordered by a guy called Darth Tyrranus. I think he's also a count. Looks a bit like Saruman," there would have been no mystery.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I agree. It was just a name they used. Probably chosen because it sounds a bit like Sidious. I suspect even Sith Lords have a sense of humour.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I have totally stood right there.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
Well, the darkside of the force certainly does explain the 'magic bullet' theory.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Ah, there's the story for episodes 7-9. The saga of Darth Oswald and his fight against Jedi Master Obi-John Kennedy. But, like all Sith, he gets killed by his apprentice, Darth Ruby.
Except, using the phrase "Darth Oswald" has simply left me with this image of Diedrich Bader in a robe with a lightsaber. So, that's the end of that.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Anyway, the mixed impressions about how significant the Sifo Dyas thing was supposed to be just goes toward illustrating my point. You don't want your film written/edited so that half the audience comes out thinking one thing and half comes out thinking another. If Sifo Dyas was never supposed to be expounded on, then they spent way too much time talking about him in an expositionary fashion. This is called poor writing/editing.
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were completely self-indulgent: I'M GEORGE LUCAS GODDAMIT! LOOK AT THE UNIVERSE ONLY I COULD CREATE... etc.