Criticism about the table content is welcome, but not about the table style. It took me the whole last night to convert the Excel table into a proper Frontpage HTML table. I reckon retyping would have been much faster. Boycott Microsoft products! (Not that I would suddenly support the Mac fraction, though ).
------------------ "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." A somewhat different Janeway in VOY: "Living Witness" Ex Astris Scientia
posted
"Actually, most VFX scenes don't exclude the possibility the Akira is actually longer than 400m. 'Message in a Bottle' shows the Akira next to the Defiant, whose size is in dispute as well and the evidence is even much more contradictory. Under the assumption that the most recent VFX size of 170m for the Defiant has been used, the Akira would be longer than 400m."
Show me a scene where the Defiant isn't 120m, or that the 170m length has ever been used by anyone on the show.
"Assuming a standard deck height of 3.4m as on most starships seen so far the Akira would be 440m. There is no reason to assume that the Akira is an exception, and further evidence points to about the same length."
Well, if the Akira is a warship, it might have smaller decks.
"In the lower left corner of the above image the Akira top view from this book is scaled to the Sovereign so that the two bridge modules are matched. The result is surprising, since the Akira would be only 272m long, much less than the minimum deck height allows, but about the same size that is allegedly used for VFX, according to David Stipes."
It wasn't that small when I compared the bridges. (http://frankg.dgne.com/sfsd/akiralength/sa-scale.jpg) But, we have no reason to think that either the escape pods or the bridges are similar (although realistically the Akira bridge should be about the same size as the Sovereign's, if not smaller).
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Okay, what's an MSD?" - Rick Sternbach
Jim Phelps
watches Voyager AFTER 51030
Member # 102
posted
Frank: you merely need to look at one of those full-disk views of DS9, where the Defiant is docked to the station alongside Excelsiors and other ships. For instance, the end of the episode featuring the death of Eddington. Calculate the size of DS9 using the Excelsior, and then calculate the size of the docked Defiant using the obtained diameter for DS9.
If the Defiant is less than about 200-300 meters in that scene, then the station must be less than about a mile, which means that the Excelsior is a real tiny ship.
Boris
------------------ "Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
posted
actually I'd go the 440m on the Akira. After looking at Bernd's page I reckon that the 6**** registry is an anomaly - and that the Akira class to Sovereigns what Nebulas are to Galaxies...
actually in the top left picture I reckon the Saber class might be the 'new mirandas'
------------------ "Remove your hand or I will remove your arm!" - 7 of 9
Jim Phelps
watches Voyager AFTER 51030
Member # 102
posted
Comments on the size page:
1) Rick Sternbach quoted a 2108' figure three times on the web, which, taken together with the SciPubTech figure (642.5) and that in "Making of DS9" (642) leads me rather to suppose that M. Okuda made a mistake here converting the design size, as he did in the case of the Sovereign.
2) You should probably make mention somewhere of Alex Jaeger's comment about the size of Akira (someone needs to get the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure he compared the 'size' of the two saucers.
3) Why do you take the size of a Miranda for granted, but not that of a Nebula?
4) The size of the Oberth class was given as 395 feet in the ILM charts. Although not definitive, the number might be worth mentioning somewhere.
5) The size of the Vor'cha is 481 meters only to the extent that everyone puts it at ~3/4ths the size of a Galaxy. Rick Sternbach didn't explicitly confirm the usage of a Vor'cha to measure everything, but the numbers seem to work out in this manner (did you ask him?). I've played with the notion that he knew the size of the Negh'Var as well, since he designed it, but that one is far less likely.
6) The actual figure given by Probert is 1200 feet or 366 meters; however, this is close enough. It is worth mentioning that he couldn't convince the VFX people as to the scaling, and that an AMT kit (which otherwise uses the official 360' and 4400' figures for BoP and Warbird, respectively) quotes the size at 1600' or 487 meters.
7) In a separate post, Galor was quoted at "about 1200 feet" by David Stipes.
8) Which vessel do you mean by Vulcan Warp Shuttle? There is the TMP one, which the Encyclopedia, TMP blueprints, and Fact Files place at about 48-53 meters, and there is the lander, with about the same size range.
Nice job overall, might be useful to add a column such as "other sources", just in case we receive further information in the future.
Boris
------------------ "Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
Jim Phelps
watches Voyager AFTER 51030
Member # 102
posted
Frank: I don't know yet, for all we know, somebody might adopt Stipes' 262 meters in the future and scale the Akira down to that in a hundred conclusive shots, or we might see a compromise emerging between 262 meters and the intended 450 meters, as a different team acquires using the correct figure. Might result in the greatest confusion of all times, but wouldn't be the first one.
Boris
------------------ "Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
posted
Frank: "Show me a scene where the Defiant isn't 120m, or that the 170m length has ever been used by anyone on the show." I'm still looking for that pic where the runabout is tractored by the Defiant, and the Defiant is 7 times as long as the runabout in front of it. I also have the impression that the Defiant is about the length of the Miranda main body in SofA. I'm not so fond about the Defiant comparison anyway, so I might reconsider or replace it sooner or later.
"Well, if the Akira is a warship, it might have smaller decks." I disagree. Firstly, we can't know if the Akira was really supposed to be a "warship", this would make the Defiant much less radical and also much less powerful than always stated. I think the Akira is a normal explorationcruiserthing with unusually strong armament. Even if the Akira is a warship, who tells us the decks have to be less than 3.5m? There has never been such a ship, and the 120m Defiant (warship) has even decks of 4m or so. I will include your argument to the page, though (I already wanted, but just forgot it).
"But, we have no reason to think that either the escape pods or the bridges are similar (although realistically the Akira bridge should be about the same size as the Sovereign's, if not smaller)." The escape pods are an additional hint pointing to 440m, I wouldn't exclude they are actually of different sizes. I can imagine a larger bridge module was chosen for the Akira for aesthetical reasons. The ship has much more pronounced components than other designs, and the large bridge counterpoises the catamaran hulls.
posted
Boris: 1) This could save one column, and I could use it for the "other sources" 2) Yes, I didn't have it at hand, either. 3) We have seen Miranda schematics for many years, and they are all 243m. The Nebula schematics are not that clear, with lengths between 440m and 465m. Spontanaous idea: I should do a page about the Nebula size and the variants (Phoenix, Sutherland, Farragut, the "Future Imprefect" Nebula, and the Nebula in Sisko's office). 4) I should take it for granted, although I like the 127m a bit better. 5) I should present Rick Sternbach the results, so far I have grabbed the argument from your site 6) I should have noted 366m somewhere, but I was obviously confused by the many different figures in the FF. I should also add the 487m from the kit. I wonder if anyone ever cared about the size of this ship. 7) Thanks. This one was missing. I already thought it would be some 370m "officially", although I have the impression the Galor is always 481m in VFX. 8) The TMP shuttle. I have included it to demonstrate that the error gets intolerable for the small ships no matter which reference is used.
Thanks for the additional info. I will change the following: Take only those figures as granted that are confirmed by the designer, the structure of the ship itself and a reliable printed publication. Add a column with "other sources" (e.g. D'Kora length, the rough design sizes such as "half the length of...") Ask Rick Sternbach for the reference for the DS9TM (should have done this before).
posted
Bernd: In your site, the Akira entry under Starfleet Ship Classes mentions a length of 427m from Ency II. I don't personally have any of the Encys. Anyway, the figure interests me as it equates to 1400ft. Get 1400ft and convert it, you'll get 426.72m! Could 1400ft be Jaegar's original intended length. It's suitable when taking into account the deck structure. It also fits his supposed comment about the saucer being the same width as the Sovereign's.
Oh yeah, where does that 127m Oberth figure originate from?
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
[This message has been edited by Dax (edited November 04, 1999).]
The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
Member # 35
posted
Oh, God. . . the square of the Hypotenuse and all that. Anybody good with Sines, Cosines, all that stuff I haven't used in 15 years? Take the Danube as 25 metres (?) long, guess the angle of the spread of the beam. . .
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Jim Phelps
watches Voyager AFTER 51030
Member # 102
posted
Dax: the 1400' is quite a possibility. Perhaps even 1000 feet (305m) for the Steamrunner, and 1100 (335m) for Norway.
Boris
------------------ "Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
I reckon retyping would have been much faster. Boycott Microsoft products! (Not that I would suddenly support the Mac fraction, though 
).
I should have noted 366m somewhere, but I was obviously confused by the many different figures in the FF. I should also add the 487m from the kit. I wonder if anyone ever cared about the size of this ship.
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