Ok, so North Korea is a nuclear power. Normally that wouldn't bother me any more than Iran having nukes. What bothers me is that North Korea has missiles with enough range to hit the continental United States. (and therefore Canada is under threat as well) I'm skeptical on what action the US and the rest of the world community could take against NK. NK has the largest standing army in the world so I doubt anyones going to be taking military action against them. Unfortunately Military action is probably the only way to disarm this threat. Kim Jong has consistently shown contempt for the rest of the world and diplomatic and economic sanctions probably wouldn't influence him in any appreciable way.
Being Canadian, and being interested in Military History. This is a proud moment for me. I'm sure that almost everyone has heard of the CF-105, now people can finally have a chance to see the aircraft in real life.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, North Korea only claims to have test detonated a nuke. And even if it's confirmed, we still have better nukes anyway.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well doesen't that just make be fell better... Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
So they have nukes. Big deal. This whole "No, we can have nukes but you can't" deal really chaps my ass. Nukes for all or nukes for none, dammit.
Besides, I read Kim Jong-Il's Livejournal. I don't think he really cares.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Let China take out North Korea- we can give then a seat at the Security Council (alongside Japan's pending seat) in return. Right now, China needs to worry about lil Kim more than anyone- Kim can now tell China to go fuck themselves (it's not like Kim gives a shit about their feeding most of his country anyway). This was the big moment where China said "No, Enough" and Kim said "Phhht."
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Yes, because its not like China is a permanent member of the Security Council.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
well....er...yeah.
Yes, I'm stupid....(sigh) my point being that North Korea does not need to be our exclusive problem while the other superpowers watch us try to fix everything in the world.
China is the only one capable of taking on NK just now. As I mentioned, sanctions against KN will only hurt their poorest people...in a country where starvation is rampant already and the government just does not care. Lots of bozos are calling for direct (and private) talks between the US and KN, but that's not wise: the point of having so many witneses is to prevent NK from outright blackmail.
It's what they've wanted al along and giving it to them now would reward their aggression.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
China could take on anybody they wanted. Start up a draft. Imagine 340 million conscripts coming at you.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Imagine one highly trained Chinese agent and Kim gets a permanent nite's sleep.
Our greatest worry in the situation is NOT that they have nukes, its who they will SELL them to.
Bin Laden: "Hey Kim-dog...howzit hangin'?" Kim: "Livin' Large and in charge. d'ja hear our Earth-shaking news homey?" Bin Laden "F-shizzle.....say.... you wouldn't wanna trade one of those Evil-American-Empirialist-Zappers for some new rims to pimp your ride would ya?" Kim: "Make 'em Gold plated and its a deal."
Posted by Lurker Emeritus (Member # 1888) on :
The Arrow was a... would have been... a marvelous aircraft. Would have been good if the RAF could have bought it, but seeing as they didn't get the TSR.2 anyway, they wouldn't have got it. So that's that.
Huge standing armies are a target rich environment for a pintle mounted machine gun, cluster bombs, MLRS and artillery, all of which is guided onto it's target by networked AWACs systems with a horizon of hundreds of miles. I am not impressed by an army's head count. If that's all an army has got to go on, it risks having an equally impressive body bag count.
It occurs to me that the best way to get attention in this modern world is to let off a nuke. I was always taught that the best approach to a playground bully was to ignore them as giving them attention only fuels their misbehaviour. It may land them a ton of economic sanctions, but by God it will get them a seat at the table.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I was always taught to punch a bully in the nose and ask him if he really wanted another....
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Fortunately some of us have progressed beyond kindergarten politics.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
My bullies were never...insane. Nor nuclear capable.
As to selling a nuke- Bin Laden's probably not a contender...now Chavez.... that I could easily see: he's probably already got a deal with Putin though.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: As to selling a nuke- Bin Laden's probably not a contender...now Chavez.... that I could easily see: he's probably already got a deal with Putin though.
Or, y'know....not. Posted by Lurker Emeritus (Member # 1888) on :
Something to bear in mind is that this test has not been independently verified. For all we know, it was the worlds biggest TNT landmine. If NKs real priority is, basically, attention grabbing then hoaxing the Security Council is just as good as actually building and detonating a nuke, with the added advantage that a big hole full of TNT is alot cheaper and more readily available than acquiring and processing uranium to weapons grade and building a proper bomb.
And thus I cast my earlier bully analogy in the proper light. If he's being an annoyance, ignore him. I won't break his nose until he actually becomes a threat.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I can't be certain, but can't we detect a nuclear explosion pretty much anywhere on the planet? It'd either be through the tremors or the EMP. Or am I confusing sci-fi with the real world again?
Posted by Lurker Emeritus (Member # 1888) on :
I'm afraid your grasp on reality may be slipping! ;-)
According to the news today there are people who are looking very hard for any signs of radioactivity that weren't there before. Subterranean detonations are all very well, but there is still a measurable "leakage" of radioactivity above ground. Quite a lot more than most people assume, in fact. According to the news, as yet there is no evidence of any, so we're still in the watch and wait phase. All we know is that the ground shook and there are several more conventional ways of achieving that.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lurker Emeritus: Something to bear in mind is that this test has not been independently verified. For all we know, it was the worlds biggest TNT landmine. If NKs real priority is, basically, attention grabbing then hoaxing the Security Council is just as good as actually building and detonating a nuke, with the added advantage that a big hole full of TNT is alot cheaper and more readily available than acquiring and processing uranium to weapons grade and building a proper bomb.
Perhaps he detonated all those models he bought at Christie's Star Trek Auction.
Since there's no supposed radiation and other traces of a nuclear bomb, then I feel that Kim is just pulling a ruse to get his way. I think he's just crazy enough to play a practical joke on the whole world. The thing is if other nation take military action against him, the joke will be on him.
Posted by Lurker Emeritus (Member # 1888) on :
I have read today that North Korea advised China in advance of the "test" that they should expect a detonation of the order of 4 kilotons. In the event, the bang barely registered at 1 kiloton.
Numerous possibilities suggest themselves.
1. TNT Hoax. The 4 kiloton estimate was exaggeration.
2. Bungled TNT Hoax. They only managed to detonate 1000 tons of the explosive. I was inspired to this idea by a story from WWI in which the British Army spent months tunnelling under a German trench fortress and stacking hundreds of tons of blackpowder beneath it. It was supposed to be a giant land mine to destroy the fort. Unfortunately, they bungled it. They did not provide sufficient ignition and for various other technical reasons, when the thing was fired, most of the blackpowder was ejected into the air unburnt and fell back onto the landscape. Ruined the German's day, though.
3. Small Bomb. Again, 4 kilotons was across-the-table diplomatic dick swinging exaggeration for the benefit of Dear Leaders closest and most powerful ally. An alternative spin is that they probably don't have sufficient weapons grade material for a bomb that large.
4. Badly Designed Bomb. Perhaps it was 4k, but the design wasn't A-OK, so it didn't go boom right and only part of the bomb detonated.
5. Call me in the morning if there's any actual news.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The thing is, it's really quite hard to build a nuke that small. The odds that NK pulled it off on their first try are vanishingly small. Either there was no bomb, or the bomb fizzled.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Bungled TNT Hoax. They only managed to detonate 1000 tons of the explosive.
I've just got back from a debate about Britain's nuclear deterrant which featured Col. Tim Collins and North Korea came up. He made this very point, mentioning that in regimes such as the DPRK it is very hard to tell the Dear Leader that a project such as this has failed or cannot be achieved. As a result it's tempting to fake it.
Personally, I think either a fake or a fizzle are the most likely scenarios.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Deer Leader.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: I was always taught to punch a bully in the nose and ask him if he really wanted another....
I used to bean them over the head with a baseball bat, then swing around and knock out thier teeth when they're doubled over in pain.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: As to selling a nuke- Bin Laden's probably not a contender...now Chavez.... that I could easily see: he's probably already got a deal with Putin though.
Er...look at your source. Really- look at him! Everyone from Tommy franks to Colin Powell have voiced concerns over Putin selling nuclear material/know-how to whoever has the money- Russia officially says it cant account for all of it's nuclear arsenal already.
But, it also does not mean Chaves wants a nuke (conceded).
I've read three intresting things about the "test" so far- a chinese scientist reported a detonation of only about 500 tons of TNT (spaced out underground, it would still be a huuuge detonation). A russian official said it was "definitely" a nuclear detonation (contradicting anything reported thus far),..and a third estimate that NK's best would be about the same yield as a Hiroshima bomb (still over ten times the chinese estimate).
Japan's sent supersoic research planes throught the region to search for any signs of radioactivity...but have not reported anything (at least not publicly).
My wild guess- Kim was testing the world's reaction.
France said if any test really occured, it must have failed. Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: I can't be certain, but can't we detect a nuclear explosion pretty much anywhere on the planet? It'd either be through the tremors or the EMP. Or am I confusing sci-fi with the real world again?
You're right we can detect a nuclear explosion through seismometers (sp?) We can even tell the difference between an earthquake (Lots of vibrations) and a nuclear explosion (one large pulse)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)