Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Praise the Lord, Pass the Ammo!

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Posted by Right on :

"Those damn liberals -- passing new gun control laws they don't enforce!"

That's what I hear quite a bit from my right-wing friends whenever the topics of guns comes up. Sometimes I wonder how educated they truly are on the subject. They're all in favor of George W. Bush -- they think he'll actually enforce existing laws.

Hey, maybe he'll start.

But he sure didn't in Texas.

With Bush as governor, Texas law enforcement agencies were aware of hundreds of convicted felons who may have illegally possessed firearms, but did nothing about it. Federal law prohibits convicted felons from possessing guns. Yet hundreds of convicted felons have shown up -- gun in hand -- to attend the required (Texas) training course. More than 600 applicants for a concealed weapons permit have been turned down because they were convicted felons. As of December 1999, not one of them had been prosecuted.

Looks like the ones opposed to gun control laws are the conservatives. Maybe if they'd start enforcing the laws on the books, gun crimes would go down. Of course, if they did that, *gasp* the NRA might not be able to scare quite as many people.

It's also interesting to note that under the concealed weapon's law in Texas,

3,051 Texans with the permits were arrested (27 on charges of attempted murder and manslaughter)

Felony and misdemenor charges againt those w/ concealed permits increased 54% from the first year to the second year of the program.

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Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Tune in next time to see our heroes, Rocky & Bullwinkle meet their fate in:

THE DEFIANT *IS* 170M LONG!

I GOT THE 'HERE WE GO AGAIN' POWERUP AND JUMPED OF THE CLIFF, ENDING THE GAME FOR GOOD!"

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited February 17, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

All your gun are belong to us.

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by BlueElectron (Member # 281) on :

HAHA

that's a good one!

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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Not surprising Republicans wouldn't enforce gun control laws ... I mean, otherwise people might actually wake up and realize that they work! (This way they can rail against liberals). I'd love to hear Rush spin this one.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

That is the most useless post I've ever seen. As UM said, 'here we go again.'

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Oh, but will it get another round of "Fuck you, no, fuck you" going again?

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I DO NOT ENJOY BOTH GENDERS!!!
Ultra Magnus

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

That was a stupid thing to say Kosh. Go fuck a horse.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

*bursts out laughing*

Now now Liam, play nice.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

This is the most useless post I've ever seen

Well, of course it is. Anything that portrays George W. Bush as being soft on gun crime and a suck-up to the NRA (no wonder he picked Cheney) is of course useless. And a smack in the face of those who say Gun Control laws are passed and not enforced by liberals.

In this case, they're passed and not enforced by the guy who passed 'em.

There was a bit of a scandal in Maryland a few years back. There's a 7-day waiting period, and the check is run through the State Police. Well, one week, the Police didn't do that great a job of keeping their records up to date who was/wasn't supposed to get a gun, and about 20 convicted felons bought (or submitted paperwork to buy) handguns.

Needless to say, the State Police were very embarassed, every one of those 20 were arrested and prosecuted, and the problem has yet to be a problem again.

Oh, yeah, Maryland is a liberal state.

So ...

Maryland Liberals = Tough on Gun Control laws

Texas Conservatives = Like to pass lots of laws and not enforce them

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 19, 2001).]

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

It is so much easier to make a claim and accept it as truth as it is to actually verify it.

Right, if you can, state your source, otherwise it can be ignored as unsubstantiated.

And I was refering to *your* post, JK. Its utterly useless. And your second one is as well. You're making claims, but not verifying them. Any reason why? I hypothesize its because you can't.

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

For Maryland, go look through the archives of the Baltimore Sun. You should be able to find it. Quite a scandal and a couple of top troopers got fired because of it.

Cheney? Let's see ...

--voted against the Undectable Firearms Act of 1988, which outlawed guns that are made with so little metal they can defeat a metal detector (he was one of only four congressmen to do so). When asked about his vote, he replied that "obviously {I} wasn't in the pocket of the NRA." (Yeah, cuz he's even more to the right than they are and that's hard to do).

--Voted against a ban on the armor-piercing "cop killer" bullets. He was one of only 21-House members to oppose the ban. (Not surprisngly, he also voted against funding programs to prevent family violence and to provide shelter for the victims of family violence).

1988 CQ Almanac, p. 40-H, vote #118
New York Times, 7/25/00
H.R. 3132, vote #1465, 12/17/85
1984 CQ Almanac, p. 6-H, vote #14

Or do you mean Bush allowing 600 convicted felons to purchase firearms and not be prosecuted? Or the whole record on guns?

"You want my sources?"
"I think I'm entitled!"
"You want my sources?!"
"I want your sources!"
"You can't handle the sources!"

They would be:

Houston Chronicle 3/23/99
Greensboro News & Record 11/29/98
Portland Press Herald 6/6/99
Associated Press 7/22/99
International Defense Review 9/1/97

*ahem*

The only point I'm trying to make, is that while certain forum members here like to talk about how liberals like to pass lots of gun control laws and then not enforce them ...

When in fact, George W. Bush hasn't been doing a super great job of enforcing them either.

So, while its not true to say liberals like to pass law and not enforce them, it's also not true to say conservatives like to pass laws and enforce them.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 19, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION!

YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO ESCAPE THIS THREAD, MAKE YOUR TIME!

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Oh, JeffK, on a completely unrelated note, you should add that Mr. Begala also has the most grammatically incorrect book title in, like, ever.

I don't know about you, my Children sure is learning. Oh no, all my base is belong to them!

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free Jeff K

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The title of his book is a direct quote from the President of the United States

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I'd have voted with Cheny, for two reasons:

1. There are no such things as "undetectable" guns made with so little metal that they canot be detected in your standard airport security devices. These machines are ALSO made to search for plastic (like plastique), by the way. There never have been such guns. The reports that there are are firmly under the heading of "urban legends"

2. There are no such things as "cop killer" bullets that are known for piercing bulletproof vests, because the ONLY people ever to have been killed by such ammunition, while wearing vests, were shot in the HEAD.

Liberals would be a bit less funny if they were a bit less gullible.

Next they'll be passing emergency legislation to protect people from having their kidneys removed in hotel rooms.

Incidentally, I might like to point out that the Democrats trump Bush in nonenforcement, when it comes to the current background check laws, which are a FEDERAL matter, not a state one. They trumpet that some 50,000 people were stopped from getting guns due to false or inaccurate, information, or checks revealing that they were not permited to own guns, but they don't mention that no one was ever arrested, not ONE, for the felony that providing false information ON said form is, or that attempting to obtain a gun when you've been declared ineligible is.

In effect, the Clinton Administration created over 50,000 new felony commissions. And let them go.

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"My knowledge and experience far exceeds your own, by, oh, about a BILLION times!" -- Q

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

There are no such things as "undetectable" guns made with so little metal that they canot be detected in your standard airport security devices.

I'd read that the CIA has something like this. Untrue?

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Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, gee, First, the police sure were mad when those "armor-piercing" bullets hit the streets. What does it say about Dick Cheney that he voted against a bill to keep them legal? The bullets existed, they could shoot through police vests, and Dick Cheney voted against a ban against them. I guess he's just sucking up to the cop-killer vote, huh? (This from the same party that threw a fit over Ice-T's "Cop-Killer" single -- yeeesh)

If what you say about plastic guns is true -- keep in mind, this vote was in 1988 -- why did the NRA oppose it? Obviously, while today's metal detectors might be able to pick them up, do you really expect today's technology to be available 13 years ago? Of course you do! Because the Republicans have spun it as so. Dick Cheney's a nut.

And instead of talking about Bush failing to prosecute those 600, you just go cry "liberals! liberals!" instead of defending Bush. How ... interesting.

Bush's gun law -- the first he signed, BTW -- said that all you needed to carry a concealed weapon was pass a background check, and complete 10 hours of training. So when 600 felons show up for the training packing heat, isn't that also then a violation of STATE law? Yet, they weren't prosecuted.

I notice you didn't talk about the fact that over three thousand people with the CCW permit were arrested, a couple dozen on charges of manslaughter and attempted murder. Or that felony charges increased over 50% in one year against those with concealed guns?

Oh, yeah. Can you cite your sources for any of your claims up there? I mean, hey, I cited mine.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 20, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Actually, my info on "Today's" information on metal detectors came from an issue of Popular Mechanics from 1987.

As for the rest, it's somewhere in my extensive files and voluminous memory, so that it might take a while to dig it up, but I'll give it a shot.

You gotta understand, if I donated every book in my home library to the PUBLIC library, they'd have to build a new wing to hold it, no lie. Can't hold everything in RAM, and the data gets priority over the sources, generally.

Info on "Cop Killer" bullets is a matter of public record. However, for a tidbit of useful facts, you could check: http://www.webnexus.com/users/pactive/library/copkill.htm

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"My knowledge and experience far exceeds your own, by, oh, about a BILLION times!" -- Q

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited February 20, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Or would you prefer an excerpt from an interview with the INVENTOR of the bullets?

The following text is from the NRAction newsletter, Volume 4, Issue 5 (May 1990); it is part of an interview with one one of the inventors of the KTW "Cop-Killer" Teflon-coated bullet, and is a subset of a larger article.

KOPSCH: "[Police] LieutenantTurcus, Don Ward and I thought maybe we could design a bullet which would get through the car door, and get through the windshield and get the crook out of the car ..."

KOPSCH: "Critics kept complaining about teflon's
ability to penetrate body armor. That was nonsense typical of do-gooders. In fact, teflon cut down on the round's ability to cut through the nylon or kevlar of body armor."

KOPSCH: "Moreover, no armored police officer has been killed by the round, and interestingly enough the man who brought this to national attention ws the Honorable
Rep. Mario Biaggi, who was in the U.S. House of Representatives at the time. When he called attention to the fact that the police were wearing bullet-resistant garments, the criminals started to shoot for the head. So Biaggi may have gotten quite a few policeman killed ...

"We never sold [KTW] to the public. Sales were always limited to the police and the military. It had been available to the police and military for roughly five years before Biaggi started this ... it was a hoax on [Biaggi's] part that got him national publicity."

How's that for laughs?

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"My knowledge and experience far exceeds your own, by, oh, about a BILLION times!" -- Q

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Hilarious.

But seriously, if those plastic guns could be picked up by metal detectors ... why did the NRA support the bill banning them? Just wondering.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I'll have to check on that part. Perhaps a case of 'pick your battles?'

AH, apparently, the NRA helped draft the law that was passed, apparently to make it as exclusive as possible, so that it would NOT ban already detectable guns. since it was really dealing with a non-existent threat.

From the talk.politics.guns FAQ:

In summary: The Austrian-made Glock 17 pistol was the subject of a "gun control" scare originating in 1986 with Washington Post columnists Jack Anderson and Dale Van Atta (with assistance from anti-gun activist Josh Sugarmann), because it was one of the first widely available handguns to have a polymer frame (or handle) which reduced the overall weight of the gun. In his newspaper column (which, strangely enough, ran on the comics page) Anderson claimed that Libyan dictator Muammar Quadaffi was "in the process of buying more than 100 plastic handguns that would be difficult for airport security forces to detect" to use in anti-U.S. attacks.

Though Anderson's column made the claim that the
Glock 17 was "made almost entirely of hardened plastic," in reality the Glock still contained over a pound of steel (in the barrel, slide, magazine, and trigger mechanism), and is detectable both by metal detectors (due to the metallic content of the gun and any ammunition it might contain) and security X-ray machines (due to its clearly recognizable shape). The column referred to these "plastic guns" as being the "hijacker special," paralleling the rhetoric used to ban the so-called "Saturday Nite Specials". "Gun control" advocates agitated for a law which would ban "plastic guns", a threat they claimed would defeat security measures at airports, prisons, and courtrooms.

No all-plastic undetectable firearms existed at the time, and except for a fictional depiction in the 1993 Clint Eastwood movie "In The Line Of Fire" none exist today. There is of course, an exemption in the Undetectable Firearms law for government agencies. (Intelligence agencies like the CIA may have such exotic weapons, but won't publicly reveal the fact.) The Glock, first made for the Austrian military,
has since become a popular sidearm for police officers, who must carry a gun for long periods of time while on duty.

Rather than exploring ways to upgrade security measures to deal with possible future technological threats such as non-metallic firearms, Congress banned their production in the United States and required that all firearms sold and manufactured in the U.S. must meet an established detectability standard. The National Rifle Association helped draft the law which was adopted, and fought to prevent the banning of detectable firearms containing plastic parts, like the Glock. The ban legislation, aimed at a non-existent threat, can of course do nothing to prevent the eventual development of non-metallic firearms in other countries, and the subsequent acquisition of such weapons by terrorists.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited February 20, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Move Teflon-coated 'zig'. For plastic justice.

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Right, then.
We'll chalk that up as a Win for me.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The Cheney stuff? Maybe.

You still didn't comment on the Texas record of Bush. The 600 convicted felons? The 3,000 people with concealed weapons -- 25-some on attempted murder charges ...

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Actually, I meant the whole 'plastic gun, cop-killer bullets' nonsense.

As for Bush: Hey, guess what? The Gun Licence thing is a FEDERAL affair, and states don't have the jurisdiction to enforce it!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So when state law enforcement don't take action (even though these felons are showing up -- with guns -- at the state's own training sessions) it's not their fault?

Or only the FBI etc. has the right to go after these felons? Me thinks we need to hire more Feds, then. But, wait, more Feds = Bigger Gov't.

The state not only has the right but the obligation to arrest people who are breaking the law. To say otherwise is the ignorant defense of a Texas Governor who is guilty of what many (you) accuse liberals of doing.

Or are you trying to tell me it isn't against Texas law for convicted felons to own handguns?

You still have yet to respond to:

In the first few years of the passing of the concealed carry permit, 3,051 Texans were arrested, 27 for charges of attempted murder and manslaughter.

Felony and misdemeanor charges against CCW permit holders increased some 50% from the first year of the program to the second.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 21, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

more Feds = Bigger Gov't

Size of government is not determined by number of employes. If that were so, you could legitimately claim that the size of government dropped under Bill Clinton, because he fired the military. Size of government is determined by how intrusive it is into your life.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Fine, fine, fine. And the downsizing of the military was due to the end of the Cold War ... you DO know that, don't you?

But the idea that local & state police agents don't have to enforce the law is rather stupid, IMHO. Local police have to enforce state law, local and state police have to enforce Federal laws. End of story.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited February 21, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Responsibility for the enforcement (or lack thereof) of the Federal Government's Gun Laws falls directly on the shoulders of the BATF, which is the Federal Government's enforcement arm in that matter. (Although we see what grand jobs they do with the A&T parts already.)

One might point out that zeroing in on any particular state is unfair in this instance (not that fairness matters to liberals when their own interests aren't at stake).

Nationally, approximately 204,000 gun sales were stopped in 1999 after the potential buyer failed a background check, according to a Justice Department report issued in early June. This put the rejection rate for the 8.6 million gun-sales applications at 2.4 percent.

And yet, as far as has been reported, even in speeches where certain people who helped to pass these checks boasted of their efficiency, NOBODY has claimed that any people were ever PROSECUTED for attempting to purchase a gun illegally, ANYWHERE, even in Maryland.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So, what you're essentially saying is, it's not fair to attack political leaders for failures by law enforcement to enforce existing gun laws?