Spring 2002: A Canadian of Lebanese Descent is heading home after a business trip from London to Toronto with a stopover in New York. Once in New York, he is immediately detained because he is suspected of having links to Al Qaeda. The man insists that he is only a businessman returning from a business related venture, but is promptly arrested by police. He is held not only without proper counsel, but is denied requests to see a member of the Canadian Consulate who would attempt to iron things out. He languishes in a New York Prison where guards threaten to send him to Guantanamo Bay unless he provides information about the whereabouts of Al Qaeda Operatives he knows nothing about. He is then deported, not to Toronto where he has made his home for the last 20 years, but to Lebanon. Only then are the Canadian authorities notified. Fortunately, the man turns up at a Lebanese police station 30 days after his detention, unharmed, and pretty pissed off at the U.S. Government. He is seeking a lawsuit of unspecified damages.
Summer 2002: Two Muslim men are crossing into the United States at Niagara Falls to attend a wedding in Rochester, NY. They are subsequently arrested since two men travelling in the same car must mean that they are Al Qaeda operatives (or some stupid reason like that). They are held without counsel, and like the first guy, denied any request to see a member of the Canadian Consulate. Family and friends back at home begin to suspect the worst and contact the Canadian Government. It takes two months to free both men from this mess.
1) Why Shoot First and ask questions later? 2) Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?" 3) They ask for a lawyer. They aren't "unlawful combatants." But still, no lawyer?
So far, the U.S. Customs are three for three. Any more suspected Canadians you would like to humiliate?
Omega? First?
[ February 15, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Saltah'na ]
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
#1, #2, and #3 are what happens when freedom-hating, constitution-hating goose-stepping facists get in the White House.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Don't forget paranoid
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Da_Bang: these incidents with Canadian citizens are frightfully real, and the result of the facist fear-mongering administration currently running this nation.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
You said that. How does that contradict his statement that said fascists are also paranoid?
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tahna Los: 1) Why Shoot First and ask questions later?
Well hell, half the people here would like to do that already...
This is what percentage out of how many Canadians that cross the border to get away from the GST and the cold weather every year?
My goodness, a statistical sample of three.
You don't love us.. you're just using us for the body heat.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
They asked for counsel, First. A lawyer or either someone from the Canadian Consulate. The least they can do is to honour the request. The article that I posted had a person stating that the detainee can request someone from the Consulate. At the very least, I understand when someone is detained for questioning at the border. So why wasn't their request for counsel granted? Have we regressed to our McCarthy days?
But noooooooo..... these people had to be humiliated first. And besides, these four are from the Toronto area only. There may be many more.
Did I mention that Canadian Director Atom Egoyan was supposed to be at a directing seminar in New York? He chose not to go because a) he is muslim, and b) the threat of being detained for no reason is now more paramount.
Oh btw: these people were also denied requests to make even a simple phone call. How do you justify that, First?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
Most fascists leaders tend towards paranoia, yes?
"these incidents with Canadian citizens are frightfully real, and the result of the facist fear-mongering administration currently running this nation."
I see that. I am a Canadain. And I feel that the actions of this "fascist fear-mongering adminisration" is overstepping its bounds. In fact, I feel that it has overstepped its bounds A LONG TIME AGO.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
One less Canadian director in the US, and this is bad, how?
And "more paramount?" that's an oxymoron, and it's not even an accurate one.
And I'm not justifying it. It's ludicrous. It's ridiculous. But you know what? In the grander scheme of things, it's a drop of spit in the ocean.
And I'd wager that these events, had they happened elsewhen, would have gone largely or entirely unnoticed.
Bad crap happens every day. Justice gets miscarried. The INS arrests Canadians but lets John Lee Malvo go free unsupervised.
I'll admit and agree that the INS is in SEVERE need of overhaul. Unfortunately, neither major political party seems interested in doing so. (In fact, the only other voice I hear calling for a review of the INS and its procedures is Bill O'Reilly.)
Despite what the media would have you believe, we're not all arab-hating maniacs down here. We're talking of three incidents out of how many million this year? Perspective.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Stragely enough, I agree. The incidents are certainly in need of some internal (or even external) investigation, but I'd sooner chalk it down to a combination of paranoia, bureaucratric ineptitude, and overzealous policing (with maybe a hint of racism). It's quite common these days, we're getting all these report so people being arrested by the security forces guarding the airport cordons yet they're all getting released without charge. What's happening in these cases? Why are these people being deemed 'suspicious?' We don't know since we don't have any meaningful freedom of information legislation. There are far worse, and more government-sanctioned actions taking place: consider the case of the British plane-spotters arrested and sentenced to prison for spying on Greek military airfields.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two: This is what percentage out of how many Canadians that cross the border to get away from the GST and the cold weather every year?
Completely irrelevant. It's the NATURE of these offenses which makes the whole thing horribly, unspeakably wrong. There is absolutely no justification for refusing a traveler access to a representative of their consulate -- regardless of the "crime." There is no logical way in which the term "combatant" can be applied in the described situations.
The simple fact is that in order to protect this nation's ideals, the fools in the government are willing to destroy those very same ideals. You know, simple things like "innocent until proven guilty"?
I hope that Prime Minister Chr�tien will be able to bring some real attention to this kind of thing. The administration needs a good embarrassment right about now.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
One less Canadian director in the US, and this is bad, how?
You're missing my point.
And I'm not justifying it. It's ludicrous. It's ridiculous. But you know what? In the grander scheme of things, it's a drop of spit in the ocean.
You're still missing my point. And it does sound like you are defending the actions of those who abuse their power.
And I'd wager that these events, had they happened elsewhen, would have gone largely or entirely unnoticed.
You're three for three.
While I understand "increased scrutiny" and "detained for questioning", my concern is the gung-ho attitude of the customs agents who wield more power than a typical police officer. I don't think I need to repeat MinutaeMan's words, they are dead on the money. Besides, American police officers are supposed to yield an interrogation from the moment a criminal requests a lawyer.
In the first case, the Canadian Government feared that the man could have been killed from the moment he set foot on Lebanon. And as for the recent case, we need not forget the case of the man who was living in a Paris airport for how many years after his passport was stolen? (the INS actually destroyed any chance of the woman going to either Canada or India, God bless the generous pilot who was able to help her out.)
The only thing that is worth noting and agreeing is the notion of overhaul from within the INS. But since you don't think about these without a hint of outrage (I don't see any), then I don't think you take your own notion very seriously.
Heck, I could be travelling down to the states later this year. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a similar story as the above three only to have you reply: "so what? in the grander scheme of things, it's only a drop of spit in the ocean."
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
I don't much care for Egoyan, though, I guess, he's the best we've given the industry.
Somebody mention Cameron, and I will kick your testicles.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Cronenburg.
Or, um, if we're feeling Trekgeekish, how about that Alan Kroeker?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Word games!
Cronenberg ---------- Rated
Like, Crash was terrible.
I AM SO GOOD.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
About that guy in the Paris airport... Isn't he still living there?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Last I heard. He makes a more comfortable living there than he could anywhere else anyway, just from all the journos doing stories about him.
quote:Originally posted by Saltah'na: One less Canadian director in the US, and this is bad, how?
You're missing my point.
And you're missing the joke.
quote:And I'm not justifying it. It's ludicrous. It's ridiculous. But you know what? In the grander scheme of things, it's a drop of spit in the ocean.
You're still missing my point. And it does sound like you are defending the actions of those who abuse their power.
No, it doesn't. He says the actions of those involved are ludicrous and ridiculous, which they are.
quote:The only thing that is worth noting and agreeing is the notion of overhaul from within the INS. But since you don't think about these without a hint of outrage (I don't see any), then I don't think you take your own notion very seriously.
It's possible to consider the chance of overhauling the INS without getting outrgaged about it. If Rob had blamed the Democrats for not overhauling the INS you'd have had cause to disagree; in fact, he said neither party had done anything while in power.
quote:Heck, I could be travelling down to the states later this year. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a similar story as the above three only to have you reply: "so what? in the grander scheme of things, it's only a drop of spit in the ocean."
Which it would be, by the same logic. If I happen to drive past East London airport with a length of drainpipe in my trunk and get stopped and arrested as a result, I'm not going to blame it on some great wight-wing conspiracy.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
The INS is not actually the issue here and neither is detention.
If the current administration is violating the enumerated Constitutional rights of its own citizens by detaining them without counsel, what makes you think they care at all about Canadians or anyone else from a foreign country?
A policy of dentention without right to legal counsel or the ability to speak to someone like the Canadian Consulate is not a decision that the INS can make on its own. The policy to violate the Constitution and basic human rights comes from much higher up in the present administration.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Who is this guy in the Paris airport?
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
No, it doesn't. He says the actions of those involved are ludicrous and ridiculous, which they are.
The fact that he says that it is just a drop of spit in the ocean seems to cast any outrage in doubt. At least that's what I think.
Which it would be, by the same logic. If I happen to drive past East London airport with a length of drainpipe in my trunk and get stopped and arrested as a result, I'm not going to blame it on some great wight-wing conspiracy.
That's not the point. Nor is it a conspiracy. It is the fact that one single person standing behind a customs counter has the capability to make your life a living hell without any due cause. That was clearly the case in all three cases. While that fact alone can be condoned in some cases, the fact that requests for counsel were not granted makes the whole story intolerable.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tahna Los: Spring 2002: A Canadian of Lebanese Descent is heading home after a business trip from London to Toronto with a stopover in New York. Once in New York, he is immediately detained because he is suspected of having links to Al Qaeda. The man insists that he is only a businessman returning from a business related venture, but is promptly arrested by police. He is held not only without proper counsel, but is denied requests to see a member of the Canadian Consulate who would attempt to iron things out. He languishes in a New York Prison where guards threaten to send him to Guantanamo Bay unless he provides information about the whereabouts of Al Qaeda Operatives he knows nothing about. He is then deported, not to Toronto where he has made his home for the last 20 years, but to Lebanon. Only then are the Canadian authorities notified. Fortunately, the man turns up at a Lebanese police station 30 days after his detention, unharmed, and pretty pissed off at the U.S. Government. He is seeking a lawsuit of unspecified damages.
I have heard news of a second man in very similar circumstances. Making a trip back to Toronto from Paris, stopping at New York, but this time the man is of Syrian Descent, so he was deported to Syria, denying requests of counsel, denied requests to speak with the Canadian Consulate. This time however, unlike the Syrian Police allowing him to leave, they take him into custody and accuse him of Spying for the U.S. From what I hear, he is set to be executed pretty soon, don't know when.
So if he dies, I suppose the U.S. has a lot to answer for, hmm? Or is this just a "drop in the bucket in the grander scheme of things?"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Cite?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Isn't 6 months a little long to still be bitter?
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Mention of this was made in an editorial of the Toronto Star. Unfortunately, I cannot find any other reference to it. I'm not sure when this happened, so I'll be sure to post when I find more. I'm betting that this was a while ago, since I cannot find more recent information on it, yet.
Liam, I'm only posting this to point out the relevance of the U.S.'s "shoot first, ask questions later", and the U.S.'s lack of respect when these unfortunate individuals are denied requests for counsel and access to consulate personnel.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Seriously, Crash was terrible. I shit you not.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I wa about to post a response, then I realized this topic is from February...
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: I was about to post a response, then I realized this topic is from February...
.. yet you did anyway. And so did i.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I didn't though.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
I'm not finished yet.
This is the guy deported to Syria. Contrary to what I had heard earlier, he is not awaiting execution, but the fact that he has been in detention in Syria (and undergoing daily torture as it has been speculated) since September 2002 is still disturbing. No one has actually answered my question on why the Canadian Authorities were not notified, or was there any need to?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)