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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Why was it necessary to attack Spacedock? Surely there must be Borg drones there too. And whatever happened to quantum torpedoes?

What was Seven even trying to achieve? We've heard all season long in dialogue and by TPTB what an underdog the Titan is. And then she's going to battle 200+ more advanced vessels?

Likewise the TNG crew went up against a massive cube without a plan. It was only due to the Borg Queen's idiotic need to explain her plan to Picard that they survived.

So let me get this straight. Jack Crusher after willingly going to the Borg Queen which allowed her to set her plan in motion killing hundreds/thousands, doing some Locutus-cosplaying and doing absolutely nothing to save the day gets rewarded with a Starfleet commission?

Thank good Starfleet has its priorities straight. Introducing a new shinier Starfleet combadge mere hours/days (?) after that catastrophe. Speaking of costumes: Picard, La Forge and Riker were still wearing the same clothes one year later. And apparently there wasn't enough budget left for correct admiral pips for Beverly.

I laughed in utter disbelief when they revealed the Enterprise-G. Most moronic fanwank ever. And very insulting that this anachronistic lazy ship design is now an Enterprise.

Season 3 very hard tried to undo everything big the previous two seasons did. They brought back the Borg as enemies and resurrected Data and Q.

Nice to have Walter Koenig back but I think grandson would've worked better.

In the end I'm just glad that they didn't kill off anybody of the TNG main crew. The show ended with them playing poker just like in "All Good Things" which I very much prefer as the end of TNG.

My final thoughts of Season 3

the good:
reuniting the TNG crew (although there was some unnecessary conflict at times and it ended just like "All Good Things")
nobody of the main cast was killed off
seeing the Enterprise-D again (although like Worf i prefer the Enterprise-E)
the leather jackets

the bad:
a preposterous storyline riddled with plot holes and convenient coincidences
the anachronistic Titan-A and the fanwanky rechristening to Enterprise-G
Vadic, the most annoying villain in Trek history
the character assassination of Beverly Crusher
the return of the Borg
Jack Crusher
killing off Legacy characters
very often felt like very bad fanfiction
Matalas's inappropriate social media behaviour

[ April 20, 2023, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
So, I've seen the episode, but I don't have time to do my usual breakdown this morning.

I will say this now, though... I would have been cool with Captain Seven of a brand-new Enterprise-G, since they've established the F was retiring. But renaming the Titan-A? That just takes a confusing ambiguous situation and makes it even worse.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
What. The actual


Did I just watch.

Every is magically saved! All it takes is a hug & a little love! Awwwww... (retch) Everyone magically has a new happy life!

"Enterprise-G" MY FUCKING ASS.

And the way they didn't even TRY to be sibtle about Matalas' "Legacy" wanky bullshit. Even said the fucking word right there! And Q?! Jesus H. FUCK.

Booking a ticket to LA to hunt Matalas down & croquet-mallet his cockles.

The only things I really liked were Snorf, & that this fucking travesty is finally done.
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
So is this series done?

Season 1 & 2 were unnecessary, except to tell seven and raffi’s story. I would watch Captain Nine or captain seven… or whatever she’s called. Would watch Jack walk in to the captain and first officer getting freaky with it.

Finale was just a random TNG episode. Maybe they should have left the screenplay for the protostar.

Good to see Brent spiner just be himself. Would have like to see bev go rescue her son as opposed to picard.

It was good to see the big D fly again: going in and out of warp. Pass over head and underneath, also doing a full stop in front an unknown behemoth.

I appreciate production’s explanation on the ship porn.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Matalas must have a real hard-on for the Connie III.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
OK, so that happened. And I quite enjoyed it (watched on my iPhone on a transatlantic flight - I had about in theory an hour to download it on the Prime app before we boarded, but in practice it was much less as it didn’t ‘drop’ at the strike of midnight UK time).

And I quite enjoyed it. But it helps if you don’t think about it too much. Which isn’t really SOP for Star Trek…

The mechanism by which generic assimilation occurs and manifests itself remains nebulous.

The whole of Earth’s planetary defence hinging on Spacedock seems odd, even more so that it itself could sustain a concerted defence against massed bombardment from hundreds of capital ships; I guess that’s encouraging in a way? I wonder if the full defence grid incorporates things like weapons platforms akin to those in the Chin’toka system, or self-replicating mines…

So, it’s like that Doctor Who episode in which James fucking Corden resists Cyber-conversion through the power of love. Marvellous.

Do people actually visit the museum? If so, wouldn’t they want to go stand on the bridge of the D? In which case, wouldn’t they need to leave the lights on?

So despite everything we learned about Shaw, he was already going to recommend Seven for Captain before all this kicked off? Hmm. And she gets to have her (ex?) girlfriend as first officer. And a fast-tracked ensign as… counsellor?

OK, so I was thinking they might have renamed the Titan as the USS Picard. It would be a nice endnote to the show, being eponymous and all. I’m not sure how I feel about the already-woolly Titan-A being renamed the Ent-G, or that such a relatively minor ship class has been so honoured. The trend seems to be for capital ships to be Enterprises; this reverses that.

Furthermore it also massively reverses a progressive growth in Ent size. The D, 600m; the E, 700n; the F, 1000m… the J, two miles.

Q dying was stupid anyway so not too fussed about him coming back. It would have more sense if it had been his son, though: a true passing on to the next generation.

Overall though, it’s fine, that’s done, the TNG crew get their proper send-off and happy ever after we wanted them to have. Data is not just back, but has become a real boy. Deanna flew the Enterprise and didn’t crash it!
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Originally posted by Spike:
Matalas must have a real hard-on for the Connie III.

More concept art of the E-G. SPOILERS $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
After watching Season 3, I've got to ask...but what was the point of Season 2 and the "Happy Friendly Borg"? Where is Juraqueen, and what was her New Collective doing while Classic Collective was doing it's thing? Have TPTB actually watched what they themselves have produced?

And what was the point of introducing a love interest for Picard with Laris, given she's been completely forgotten by the finale?

And how did Seven get to be a captain so quickly? Hell how did she even get to be a commander in the first place, given she didn't even have a Starfleet commission in Season 2...set literally a year before this season! I can grudgingly forgive Jack getting a commission without attending the academy (after all, his half-brother did), but come on...does anyone attend Starfleet Academy any more?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
As for Seven, they probably factored in her service aboard Voyager and her Borg skills. Jack on the other hand really should be in prison for helping the Queen.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
There’s a case to be made that Jack had been pre-assimilated so his judgement could be considered impaired, plus he went to meet the Queen intending to stop her not join her.

It’s quite obvious the goalposts shifted massively throughout the show’s run/production, to a degree that rivals the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy. Why else give Laris a husband then kill him off to free her up to be a love interest, then write her out? Why do all three seasons have wildly different codas to the Borg, all valid to some degree (YMMV)? The Agneborg Happy Fun Collective, well it’s an interesting idea and one that simultaneously doesn’t add up given what we know… while also the idea itself (that they’re a Collective formed in the past by a time-travelling human and a Queen
from a variant timeline where the Borg lost and lost badly, and they did their best to stay out of history’s way once returned to the prime timeline) has a certain elegance. Why have Q die then ignore it?

Matalas seems to have a plan (no, stop laughing) or at least a pitch, and that plan is implied to be some sort of semi-anthology format. So all this could be seeding for that.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
So in almost 40 years, we've gone through D (7 years), E (10 years implied), F (19 years implied), & now G. This is, of course, all based on the supposition that it's all the same universe, which I don't hold to.

Anyway. J is allegedly in service some 150 years later. That's only 3 letters. Can these idiots who love short-life ships so much mkae it? Probably not.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
So there's the Jupiter approach shot which is completely amazeballs and is easily one of the best shots of a Galaxy Class ever done. The model is almost perfect.

But, they also used a model where literally half of it was built and the rest was mirrored, so there's no registry, the two lower shuttlebays are the same size, there are problems with the deck layout (especially the upturned/circularized forward engineering hull decks), and the deflector's all jacked up. (This is the same model as appeared in the warp-out shot from Ep 9.) That model was used in close-ups, too, including the initial flyby with its dark "saucer deflector" four-square on the underside of the saucer (though even that shot's different depending on whether you got the US or EU version).

There are a ton of differences and tells, more here than I can list. Indeed, I'm up to at least three different versions . . . it's almost as if every shot/sequence involved a different model. So near as I can tell, only the Jupiter Approach and the final flight away from the exploding Supercubicus Regina got the best model.

I realize production realities will never disappear, but it's kinda sad that some of this work, intended for HD and better, is literally half-assed thanks to the mirrored model wierdness. After all this time waiting to see a Galaxy given her due, we basically just get that one Jupiter shot and a blurry flyby. Sad.

I've got a running thread I'll try to condense later:
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Still too busy to get to my full thoughts, but I saw this pointed out elsewhere and had to share.

From LD's Season 1 finale "No Small Parts":

Boimler: "It's the Titan!"
Pakled Captain: "Oh no! It's another Enterprise!"

F***ing precog Pakleds. [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Can we talk about the odyssey groups? I guess heavy cruisers and explorers are dime a dozen in the 24 century.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
They should be, honestly.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes. Though there’s plenty of canon evidence for the limitations of big fuck-off capital ships (like susceptibility to swarming attacks), when all your primary foes themselves do big fuck-off capital ships - Romulans, Breen, Dominion, even the Klingons, and all the Borg really DO are big fuck-off capital ships - then you really need to have ample supplies of big fuck-off capital ships yourself.

Hence “Galaxy wings.” The bit in the TNGTM about there only likely being twelve Galaxy-class hulls built, that can be safely ignored at this point surely? A policy position that probably was overruled or overtaken by events before the ink had time to dry. For an edging-towards-Kardashev-2 civilisation, the ability to churn out any given starship design at scale is a no-brainer (the Inquiry fleet dispels any question about that). It’s having the crews to operate then that’s the limiting factor.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
This is why I've always been a big-fleeter from TWOK-era onwards. The Federation is enormous. You need to cover that area, & you need ships to do it. Running out beyond the rim & back takes time, & resources. Canonically, the background is there to justify it. You have dozens, if not hundreds, of shipyards throughout the Federation.They're orbital yards, which means it's not like modern ones. There's no need for shifts like today where you're there from 6-6 building & then you put down your tools & go home for the night, start up the next day, closed for 2 days, & it takes 8 years to build an aircraft carrier. No, you got the whole planet to hire from. You can run that shit constant, all damn day: one shift comes on & builds, then they clock out while the next comes on & builds, then they clock out while the next comes on & builds, & so on. During WW2, Kaiser Shipbuilding reduced Liberty ship construction from the prewar 230-day average down to 45 DAYS....& ultimately down even farther to about 3 weeks! One ship was built in 4 days, 15½ hours! And that's with early 1940s tech! With replicators, recyclers, & an entire planetary population–actually mutliple planets just in one solar system–there's no reason a Galaxy shouldn't have a keel-to-commission time of like a year ,& no reason why Starfleet shouldn't be commissioning thousands of ships a year even if only 30% of its yard resources are solely dedicated to newbuild rather than refits.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Which brings us on to another thing: how many crew does a ship actually need to actually run it? I’d say not many. After all, most of the ships we’ve, well, seen the most of, they had biggish complements, but how many were actually necessary crew? There were scientists, researchers, family, passengers…

For the long run, I think a larger crew us necessary: to be able to run three or four duty shifts; to carry out complex maintenance; to do on-the-job training, as trainer or trainee.

But when you see the Ent-null effectively automated by Scotty in a matter of hours, so that “a chimpanzee and two trainees could run her”; or the Ent-D being flown IN A BATTLE by FOUR PEOPLE just last week; or that Miranda-class whose crew, all about a dozen of them, died of old age; and the Prometheus being flown perfectly easily first by a handful of Starfleet test personnel, then a handful of Romulans, then two EMHs, then you have to think that in-show “modern” tech doesn’t require a starship to have hundreds of people onboard running it, not for short periods at any rate. So the Inquiry cut&paste fleet, each ship could have had a couple dozen crew onboard at most…

And, I can’t remember when this theory came about, but that thing about some of the Galaxy-classes seen in DS9 being mostly empty volume, without extensive corridors and quarters installed… maybe that’s more common than we realise.

It’d explain the empty volumes seen in, for example, the Ent-null in DSC & Short Treks! The VAST empty volumes in Discovery itself in DSC s3 still stretch credibility beyond breaking point, however…
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yeah, even Voyager said they only really needed, what, 87 out of 150?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Actually, I just remembered I did this math already. My project has a "written in" date of 2407 (chosen well before the Abramsverse, STO, or the Discoverse). Because I'm a big-fleet guy, & because I based postwar UFP on post-WW2 ideas, in that things got better & the engines of war were redirected to science & exploration, I had to do the math.

What I came up with is that Starfleet strengths in 2407 totalled 46.8 million current personnel, 8.83 million active reserved, & 18 million inactive reserved. This was achieved using the following rough touchstones:

• 363 Galaxys (see supra on why so mamy) @ 1000 crew avg.=363,000
• 910 numbered starbases @ 2200 avg=2,002,000
• ca. 65,000 active starships @ 650 avg.=42,250,000
• Unnumbered installations: 1,500,000
• Non-starship/starbase/installation-based personnel: 722,000

When you think about it, this isn't an unachievable number. There are supposedly 150 UFP members, but that's at the system level; it doesn't count colonies, outposts, or stations at eithet the federal or member-level (e.g., Mars being under the umbrella of United Earth). It doesn't account for Starfleet being the Foreign Legion of the galaxy with its open-door "get sponsored & you're in" program for non-citizens. Furthermore, consider the 985-billion citizen mention in Star Charts for the 2380 census. All these world have billions of peoole on them EACH. Assuming that 25 years later there's an extra 10 billion (which is a SUPER conservative estimate), that still means my number for just active SF personnel strengths is only 0.000047 of the entire population! And the entire service is still fully staffed, both military & scientific sides alike, with more people coming every day!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
A major interstellar power like the UFP would have the technology and resources (raw materials, personnel, w/e) to *easily* field millions of Galaxy-class ships. Not hundreds, not thousands. MILLIONS. Y'all ain't got no sense of scale.

(and 985 billion for the entire 8000-ly spanning Federation would be hilariously underpopulated, with even a single basic Dyson swarm of orbital habitats able to house quadrillions with room to spare, but at least that number is less off than fleet sizes in sci-fi usually are)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I’m in two minds…

On the one hand, I don’t want to get into what we think they should be doing. Because that is very subjective and for whatever reason, in-universe they don’t feel the need to have hundreds of Galaxy-classes. Mind you, as we’ve just seen they’re not short of other capital ships - plenty of Odysseys, Sovereigns, Inquirys, and those fucking Galaxy knock-offs, the Sutherlands.

On the other, I’m fairly sure that somewhere in the Flare database there’s a ~20yo thread where I bemoan the lack of any real advancement in the scientific basis of Star Trek. That much of it is still based on a set of scientific precepts from the mid-1960s - antimatter-powered warp drive, phasers, photon torpedoes, transporters. Not just has our understanding of the universe moved on since then, there’s been sixty years of subsequent speculative fiction showing us the art of the (what might be) possible. Mind you, we’ve finally seen a bit of that after the time-jump in DSC, and I’m not sure it’s really gelled with the audience!!
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
985 billion is a silly number. I was working this stuff out in the context of having to make highly defensible conservative estimates black in the throes of the Vs. Debate, and even then I couldn't have kept under a trillion with a straight face.
I got 975 billion just by doing Earth x 150, but had to bump it up to at least two trillion to account for 900 billion casualties as predicted in "Statistical Probabilities"(DSN) followed by the conquest of the Dominion a century later. I rather doubt 85 billion under the Dominion boot would be going all bunny-rabbit.

Per Wolf 359 the average count on starships is around 275 in 2367, and that's including at least one Oberth, a Miranda, et cetera. Based on that plus at least 8-10 thousand ships per DS9, I also came up with tens of millions of Starfleet personnel in a UFP that is quite minimally militarized.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I agree wholeheartedly that it's a silly number–it should be trillion at least, if not quadrillion–but I was working within semi-canonical goalposts.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It can be whatever you want it to be. There are too many variables. Off the top of my head: number of member… worlds, species, systems, colonies, starbases, etc.; population of each of these, again carrying wildly; birth rate of all these dozens of species (some could have loads of offspring and/or very quickly/regularly/often; others might have just one and very rarely); then there’s overall population growth of each species; etc.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Originally posted by Shik:
I agree wholeheartedly that it's a silly number–it should be trillion at least, if not quadrillion–but I was working within semi-canonical goalposts.

Oh, you're fine. I was just hatin' on Star Charts again.

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