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Posted by Saboc on :

When did the Klingon Empire become part of the Federation? When were they admitted to the Federation? I thought only an alliance was made with the Klingons in ST VI

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The Klingons haven't become part of the United Federation of Planets as of 2376, the current year in Voyager.

The timeline goes something like this:

2218: First contact b/w UFP and Klingon empire (Geordi says so in "First Contact" the TNG episode). Spock will refer to the ensuing hostilities as lasting for 75 years in 2293, suggesting there wasn't a real period of peaceful coexistence anywhere in between.

2242: UFP and KE battle at Donatu V.

2267: The "constant hostilities" flare into an abortive war that ends in the Organian Peace Treaty. This treaty is in force during some subsequent episodes of TOS, but is then forgotten. Since it was enforced by the noncorporeal beings of Organia, we can only assume that these beings disappeared, or lost interest.

2285: Klingon ambassador declares "There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!"

2293: After the explosion of Praxis, Gorkon suggests peace talks and is assassinated. The assassins are caught, and negotiations begin for abolishing the Neutral Zone (the first time we even hear such a thing existed!). So-called Khitomer Accords are written at some point, and may refer to the meetings at Camp Khitomer where the assassins were caught in 2293.

2294: Kirk seems to die, thereby making peace possible.

2327: Picard graduates. Later, Wesley Crusher suggests this happened "before the Klingons joined the Federation", and Picard agrees (TNG "Samaritan Snare").

2344: The E-C is destroyed defending a Klingon world against Romulans. This is said to lead into greater trust between UFP and KE. Perhaps this is the "joining" Wesley spoke of?

2362: The last known raid of Klingon forces on UFP territory before TNG "Aquiel"

2366: Klingons from a long-duration deep-freeze mission return and have to be told the KE and the UFP are no longer at war with each other.

2368: Klingons have a civil war which compromises their UFP relations, but doesn't lead into a declaration of war or anything. The government gets pretty anti-UFP at this point, though, and refuses to acknowledge UFP assistance in the war.

2373: Klingons consider Cardassia compromised by Changelings and invade it, declaring end of alliance with the UFP in the process.

2374: Klingons rejoin the alliance. Later episodes refer to "Second Khitomer Accords" - perhaps they were signed here.

2376: KE gets hurt badly in the war, and the leader is changed from the anti-UFP Gowron to General Martok of unknown attitudes.

So at no point do we hear of an actual membership application being made by the Klingons. And peace treaties seem to be fleeting things to them, to be discarded at a moment's notice. Make out of that what you want - currently, it seems we cannot know the realities of the political situation between the KE and the UFP because of the inherent unpredictability.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Excellent summary, Timo.

*File --> save as...* :-D

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Er, was Wesley's comment about the Klingons joining the Federation actually in the episode, or just the script?

BTW, around the time of Way of the Warrior, O'Brien mentioned "two decades" of peace ending, IIRC.

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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I must point out that though the Khitomer accords were actually signed in ST:VI, there may have been problems after that period of time, maybe with the implementation of the accords or some rogue splinter groups on both sides of the accord trying to stop the peace process. It is only after the destruction of the Ent-C that the peace process was written in stone.

Keep in mind that a Lieutenant in "Yesterday's Enterprise" mentions that they were negotiating a peace treaty around the time the Ent-C was destroyed. This must be in reference to the Khitomer Accords in ST:VI.

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Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

That was Bashir in "The Way of the Warrior, Part II", Frank.

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

The Neutral Zone was first mentioned in TWOK ("Warning: Now entering neutral zone. Warning: Now entering neutral zone"

)

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Ya, snuck that one in there before me Fabrux. One would assume that seeing as there was a Romulan, there was going to be a Klingon Neutral Zone...

Wouldn't that place the Epsilon Station near the Klingon Neutral Zone... from "TMP"

Remember there was a DMZ between the Federation and The Cardassian Union - so maybe powers that can't get along establish a neutral zone of some sorts!?!

Wesley made that Comment in "Smaratin Snare"

Also it seemed that in Heart of Glory and the Riker on the Klingon ship episode - they were still thinking that the Klingons had joined the Federation!?!

I guess it wasn't really cleared up until "Sins of the Father"

If they WERE thinking the Klingons had joined the Federation in that Riker on Klingon Ship episode - this might account for Mendek?? Being a Benzite and in the Federation AND being involved in the Crew exchange program...

I still think that there are heaps of ships out there that are MAJORITY races... The Enterprise and Voyager seem to be majority human ships - where as the T'Kumbran and the Hera are majority Vulcan crewed ships... So it makes sense that there are Andorian mainly ships, Bolian mainly ships - Of course - the waste extraction systems would be better designed on those ships

Andrew

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Personally, I'd put the Second Khitomer Accords earlier. Post Enterprise C, perhaps. Only because our one big mention of them, from Insurrection, talks about some specific issues they address, and I can't see Gowron willing to just sign a brand new treaty without even reading it, which is what he did on DS9.

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Posted by nx001a (Member # 291) on :

In 2344, Lt.Castillo of the E-C said that the UFP and KE were close to a peace treaty. So made be hostilities ended sometime just after the E-C was destroyed.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Good point about Gowron's way of signing in the aftermath of the Dominion invasion. But that means that the 2nd Khitomer Accords probably were in force when the Voyager sailed out - thus making the tricobalt devices aboard her (gasp!) illegal!

During his reign, Gowron was probably unwilling to sign anything at all that would make concessions to the UFP. At first he had to solidify his position in the aftermath of the death of K'Mpec. Gowron was selected by a human arbiter - a possibly fatal beginning for his career if he subsequently thanked the humans by making concessions. Then came the civil war, further forcing Gowron to distance himself from the UFP. Then a brief respite, but not much, before Gowron went on warpath against the Cardassians to revigorate his army, and cut all ties to the UFP. It's a bit difficult to place the 2nd Khitomer Accords here. I'd suggest they were signed well before TNG. After "Yesterday's Enterprise" is of course a possibility.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm going to have to rewatch Insurrection and pay extra close attention to that battle scene. As I recall, they continually refered to the Son'a weapons as fancy futuristic term subspace weapons. Perhaps it is only this specific kind of subspace weapon that is banned? Even if we ignore the tricobalts for a moment, phasers are essentially subspace weapons, constantly borrowing energy and shunting matter off and the like. I imagine that the actual treaty goes into mind-numbingly detailed specifics about what sorts of subspace altering devices are allowed, but people just tend to say "subspace weapons" when refering to it.

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Were tricobalts actually specifically identified as subspace weapons or are we basing this on the fact that their yield was measured in Cochranes?

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The latter.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Okay, rewatched "Insurrection". The Second Khitomer Accord actually forbids the fielding of ISOLYTIC subspace weapons. Tricobalts need not fall into this specific category of subspace weapons, even if they do have a rather subspaceish nature.

In general, the Sona seemed more advanced than the Feds technologically - they had the secret of the spring-of-youth collector device, they had really big warships that moved with ease in the Briar Patch, they had the nifty flying drones. And they had the ability to improvise weapons on the run, Starfleet-style (the isolinear tags). One would think their isolytic weapons would also be cutting-edge tech. This would imply that the treaty forbidding them in the UFP sphere of influence would be a relatively recent one, and not date back to the days of ST6...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

The could also synthesise Ketracel White... the UFP couldn't.

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Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I could probably produce the White if the Dominion told me how. I realize that this was never stated to be the case, but I cannot bring myself to believe that the Son'a learned how to do it on their own. This is the stuff, remember, that the entire Dominion military structure depends on. If the Son'a were manufacturing the stuff on the side, they would immediately become the most dangerous threat to the Dominion around.

Personally, the way I rationalize it is to assume that the Dominion had made a deal with the Son'a to use their (the Son'a's) factories to produce the White, but without being so monumentally stupid as to hand over the recipe.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Then again, if the Son'a were so advanced and powerful that even the high-brow Feds were willing to sacrifice their ideals for a chance to deal with them... Perhaps the Dominion was powerless to do anything about them?

The Son'a would have some good reasons for producing the Ketracel-White. It was a good nutrient that all by itself could keep the Jem'Hadar alive and a-kicking. What better food for the Son'a whose bodies were "producing too much toxins"? Son'a scientists would be experts on biochemistry - in fact, most of their science would probably be directed at biochemistry and life extension.

Let's say the Son'a discovered the existence of Ketracel-White. They would proceed either to buy it from the Dominion, or to steal the recipe. Once the Dominion found out about this Son'a desire, they would probably rather sell the recipe than give it away - they'd get an alternate source for the stuff, and could more easily control where the Son'a-produced stuff went, and keep it out of the hands of the Jem'Hadar.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It just seems to me that if the Son'a discovered the formula for the White, they would immediately become the Dominion's greatest enemy. Consider how the Founders are driven by paranoia, and how the White constitutes one of their strongest methods of control. It would not be out of character for the Dominion to abandon their entire Alpha Quadrant campaign for the sake of completely annhilating the Son'a. They can always try to conquer the Federation in a century or so. But if anyone but the Founders have control of the White, it might mean the end of the Dominion.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

What I was thinking of was the Son'a going to the Founder representatives and saying "Yes, we took your formula. If you behave VERY nicely, we will still let you use it by yourselves. Who knows, we might even decide not to destroy you all at the end of the day." They could theoretically have had the muscle for that.

If I understood correctly, the Ba'ku first departed a planet of high technology to lead a simpler life - but this planet wasn't actually destroyed, at least to the Baku knowledge. Then the Son'a rebelled and departed the Ba'ku, but later came back to claim the right to eternal life.

If offshoots of luddite-equivalents can in less than 300 years build the technology to outgun Starfleet's finest, the original homeworld may have had the technology to reduce the entire Dominion to dust in a not-too-busy afternoon. Perhaps the Son'a threatened to tell the daddy?

Come to think of it, it is quite possible that the Ba'ku actually game from the Gamma quadrant. Either they did it "the hard way", using more or less conventional but extremely powerful warp drives, or they had access to a special shortcut like a wormhole. They could have brought the recipe of KW with them in grandma's old cookbook.

Their ancestors could still be a formidable local enemy of the Dominion, and could have synthesized the KW in order to stir rebellion in their enemy. Or they could even be the original inventors of the stuff, which they devised as the perfect combined food and narcotic for their own use, but which was also found to be practical in fueling cloned warriors like the Jem'Hadar, and was adapted for that use by upstart primitives like the Dominion. The Son'a would still be using KW in its original purpose, as a manna of gods, which is why Riker would be speaking of KW as a "narcotic" in the Son'a context in the movie - the Dominon would be using a non-narcotic variant of KW (since they don't want their soldiers to fall asleep at work!), which is why Riker had to make a distinction.

Yeah, I know, the writers intended none of this. But it still plays out rather decently.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, the "narcotoc" thing, I think, is generally considered just another Rikerism.

As for the Son'a wanting the white for their own purposes... I don't think it really has any purpose, other than what the Dommies use it for. Bear in mind that the Jem'Hadar were specifically designed to be dependent on the stuff. It's a biological enzyme, and it's certainly non-replicable, but, other than that, there's probably nothing special about it. The only reason it's so important is that the Jemmies were engineered to need it.

Now, ketracel-blue on the other hand... ;-)

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's not a bad theory, Timo. Really, I like it.

But if the Son'a could singlehandedly crush the Dominion, why were they bothering with a UFP alliance to get to the Bak'u?

The impression I get is that the Son'a were rather small time. They had a few choice technologies, and beefed up their small population with conquered species, but galactic players they aren't. At least, as I said, that's the impression I get. Plus, when Weyoun mentions them in DS9, he doesn't seem to be too worried. But then, who would know if a Vorta was worried?

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I didn't mean the Son'a singlehandedly could threaten the Dominion. They are, after all, outcasts of outcasts. What I think is that the Son'a could maintain closer ties to their Gamma ancestors than the Ba'ku did, and could call in some favors there. "If you threaten us, remember who is gonna get angry..."

The Son'a probably were a really small group of people, with disproportionately much technology. As such, they were not a treat, but more like a *symbol* of a threat. I guess the Son'a only numbered a few hundred. Their Ba'ku ancestors only numbered 600, after all. And even though the lines were cut from the theatrical release, I think the Son'a can be assumed to have been infertile, which is why they tried to get longevity. If they could procreate, why would they not do that instead of trying to pillage the Ba'ku planet?

As for KW not being "special"... Regardless of its addictive properties, it does have the very interesting property of being a sufficient source of nutrition for a very active humanoid body all by itself. I do think it has plenty of uses outside the one preferred by the Dominion!

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Delta Vega (Member # 283) on :

I remember seeing one DS9 episode but I didn't catch the name. Weyoun (sp?) made a mention about "The Son'a are supposed to be holding that sector" like they were a memeber of the Dominion.