------------------
Lister: "Cat, what are you doing?"
Cat: "I'm courting."
Lister: "Courting who?"
Cat: "Whoever shows up!"
-Red Dwarf, "Me�"
 

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

 

Here are some shots of Ms. Blalock: http://www.randallslavin.com/portfolio/joleneblalock2.htm http://www.randallslavin.com/portfolio/joleneblalock1.htm

T'Pau?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

 

------------------
Lister: "Cat, what are you doing?"
Cat: "I'm courting."
Lister: "Courting who?"
Cat: "Whoever shows up!"
-Red Dwarf, "Me�"
 

------------------
"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade

 

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

 

------------------
Phasers

 

------------------
Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html

------------------
Kryten: Pub? - Ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve
advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of
fermented vegetable drinks. - Red Dwarf "Timeslides"

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

 

But there is one little hope out there: it still can be an other series premies instead the prequel.

Ok its silly....

@Bernd: I couldn't agree more ... to your opinion and to your comment on your page...
Especially the topic about the american-centred characters.

StarTrek R.I.P.

------------------
Visit Seventhworld, with its new Sci-Fi project FALLENWALLS
www.seventhworld.de

And of course my own StarTrek Series Project
www.stnemesis.de

Just a preview...

The continuity, and this is safe to predict, will be impaired to a degree that all the 600 episodes that will play after "Enterprise" will be rendered questionable. Maybe they try to maintain consistency at the beginning (the Klingon problem can't be solved anyway), but soon they will have a new race, anomaly, or technology every week, all nifty people and things that won't even exist in the 23rd and 24th century.

They will run out of typical 22nd century topics very soon. What should be so interesting about the Klingons once first contact is made? We know what direction interstellar relations must take - unless they let Braga run wild and completely alter history. What else could be so exciting about the 22nd century but not exciting enough to be remembered in the 23rd and 24th century? They didn't even have the new old Enterprise on the E-D ship wall (maybe it was just too ugly?).

The new series will in every case make every mistake that can be made. If they want "Voyager in the 22nd century", why don't they simply continue chronologically in the 24th century where they can show all these nifty new things? If they want something different than Star Trek, they should drop all references to it instead of ruining Star Trek. If they want to show the past history, they *have to adhere to established facts* and this is basically possible only in a single episode or feature film. Even "First Contact", as good as it was as a movie, messed up a lot of things, not to mention "Friendship One". This is only a little taste of what the new series can and will screw up in seven seasons.

I'm so disenchanted about all this. I said I would give the new series a chance, but all its prerequisites are just too bad. Wrong time, bland characters, short-sighted premise, plus Berman & Braga at the helm - it couldn't be worse. The really only thing I'm looking forward to is seeing all the old new tech - I'm confident that at least the regular technology will look reasonable even though I will never accept the early transporter.

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

------------------
Phasers

 

Well, I hope all of you who said "I don't care what the show is about or how bad it is, so long as it's Trek" are feeling suitably embarrassed now. . . 8)

------------------
Phasers

 

------------------
"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

------------------
"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima

---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

I can't wait to see the type of personal weapons folks have (c.f. the FC Calico-like machine gun).

------------------
At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

In the fifth installment of the landmark ``Star Trek'' franchise, Bakula will portray Captain Jonathan Archer, a physical and intensely curious captain with a bold personality. Although he has a strong sense of duty, he is a bit of a renegade and is not afraid to question orders or even disobey them if he feels in his gut that he is right.

Bakula comments, ``Obviously, I love the genre and am a long-time fan of Star Trek. I am also thrilled to be working on a TV series again with Kerry McCluggage and Garry Hart, a relationship that dates back to 1988 with 'Quantum Leap.'''

Under his newly extended deal with Paramount Network Television, Bakula, along with partner Tom Spiroff, will continue to develop projects that will encompass series, telefilms, features and specials.

``We couldn't be happier,'' says co-creator and executive producer Rick Berman, ``Scott personifies the charm and intelligence that the role calls for.''

The accomplished actor, who appeared in the 1999 Oscar-winning Best Picture ``American Beauty,'' recently concluded filming the New Line Cinema feature film ``Life As A House,'' directed and co-produced by Academy Award-winner Irwin Winkler.

Bakula is best known for his five-year stint on the innovative drama series ``Quantum Leap'' for which he earned a Golden Globe Award in addition to four consecutive Emmy Award nominations and three more Golden Globe Award nominations.

The Paramount Television Group is a part of the entertainment operations of Viacom Inc.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Well, I think 'Trek' for me will be Star Trek, Star Trek: TAS, Movies, TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

Couldn't be BOTHERED with this new series. I'm looking forward more to the new Babylon 5 stories...

------------------
Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
 

Who's the first officer? "Al"?

------------------
What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.

------------------
You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

------------------
Phasers

 

This is very, very, sad. I don't watch Voyager anymore, I don't think I'll even watch the finale.

Now this crap. Let's hope that Law and Order runs for another 7 years.

------------------
"Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care"
- The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight

 

They keep renewing Law & Order, but CANCELLED Homicide: Life on the Street. How retarded do you GET?

Not that there's anything wrong with L&O ... nevermind that it's essentially variations on the same plot every week ... but Homicide was (and still is...) 100% better than the vast majority of network TV shows out there today ...

I will give Enterprise a chance. However, if it doesn't grab my imagination, I will quickly stop watching it ...

I realized I didn't like Voyager when I came to the realization that I hadn't watched an episode in over a year. I mean ... well, that's just bad when it comes to a Star Trek series ...

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

I really need to take over the world here pretty quick...

------------------
"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

------------------
"I said 'You are, you are,
The only one who sees.'
I said, 'You are, you are'
The only strength I need.'"
---Kim Leaman, "Mary"

 

I also find it funny that Ron Moore had stated from the get-go that TPTB were only running Star Trek into the ground to see how much money they can make off of it before it dies a horrible death, instead of waiting a few years and coming up with a better idea.

Although no official statement has been made that the show will be a prequel, hands up all of you who know it will be thanks to the "lying" internet...

------------------
Lisa: "OK, now we're gonna pick jobs out of the chore hat. Dad, you go first."
Homer: "Come on, bikini inspector...scrub toilet! Ohhhwww...OK, that was a practice..."

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited May 11, 2001).]
 

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.
 

You may ask, What do you consider to be a credible show?
These are credible shows:
MASH
Frasier
Farscape
Babylon Five

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

I can't imagine someone who has worn a dress to be a captain of a starship. While I like Bakula, and his light humorous style, I don't see him as the commanding type. He does not seem to have that character, or that voice. I just feel that Bakula is being put into this series for his name recognition. The guy is going to get stiff, and then play the role like a Sinclair clone (first Babylon 5 captain.)

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Please state what the hell a credible show is. Thank you!

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

I suppose I would define a show as credible where there is strong consistency in the history, the characters, the technology, and the like. Though there are a few flaws, as in Frasier, where in the early years Martin said that he didn't have a brother and, later, we-the audience-learned that he has a brother, these flaws can be explained. In this instance, Martin could have been expressing an opinion about his brother and his two sons weren't disputing his opinion.

The problem with Star Trek is that the world of these characters is not consistent. There are many examples which have been the subject of disputes found on this board and others. You know the disputes as well as I do. And I can say, after having seen the majority of the franchise, that I don't believe in this world.

Or another way of saying this-the fictional world has to be as real as the real world for the audience to believe. In our real world, there are consistences. The Supreme Court in 2000 ruled in favor of Gov. Bush. President Bush '43 is a friend of the oil companies. Our space program consists of 4 shuttles, dozens of satellites and space probes, and a space station. In the fictional world, there has to be consistencies. Let's use MASH. The characters are surgeons in a war. The main character is Hawkeye, a very good surgeon from Cabot Cove, Maine. Their technology was the medical equipment found at the base, the transport vehicles used to transport the wounded and the surgeons, etc. The writers in 11 years created very little mistakes-the wrong state for Corporal Potter, wrong issues for magazines, etc. This is remarkable and accounts for why the show is credible.

And I think this last point is very important. The writers and producers of the four shows I mentioned attempted to create a world that, as it evolved, stayed true to the facts and situations of the characters. They genuinely cared about their characters and the audience came to care for those characters.

There is a difference of perception between the fans and the studio. What is the difference?
Fans see the whole franchise as a realized world with characters that have adventures in space. These characters have a psychological and personal background in a society with a history and technology that arose as an effect of that history.

The studio, however, perceives the franchise as 600 plus episodes that are a source of revenue. The studio doesn't see the whole franchise as a realized world. Instead, the studio perceives the franchise as being in the episodic tradition established by tv in the 50s. Elements-such as characters, locations, time period-carry over from episode to episode. And for purposes of script, the writers may change details that were established in earlier episodes. And the infamous Reset Button is always present at the end of an episode.

From the available data, the studio perception will be guiding the fifth Star Trek series.

The question then is,
Do you agree with the fan perception, or the studio perception? If you agree with the fan's perception, you will be opposed to the show. If you support the studio's perception, then you may give the show a chance. The show has thus divided the Star Trek base.

I will watch the show with the expection that I am watching an episodic show with the earlier stated details-changing details, reset buttons, etc.-and not anything else.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

I'll take the unconventional step of falling back on free-market economics. UPN is in fairly serious shit. ST9 did pretty poorly. Enterprise must do well or else heads will roll. How else can a show be profitable if it doesn't attract an audience? Therefore, methinks B 'n B will be quite careful to put together something that's high-quality. TPTB have the numbers in front of them all day long. They know better than anyone why the show must be a success.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Yes, and that establishes my case, thank you.

 

When I see Picard preparing to fire phasers, I don't have images of a gay interior decorator jumping all around. Maybe it's because you don't know well enough to seperate one actors' roles from another, but, uh, you're the only person who seems to have this problem ...

Paramount is taking a long look at this series. They've already been over Berman's shoulder -- they nixed quite a few show concepts before he came up with Enterprise. Looks like TPTB's PTB will be making themselves known ... (although, who knows if that's a good thing ... or a bad thing?)

I'm willing to give it a shot. Berman is pretty much responsible for the last four seasons of TNG and DS9, and Braga did write some good eps for TNG -- Parallels among 'em -- so I'm hoping they can get of Voyager gear and into Enterprise gear, and if they can, I think we'll all be very happy.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Uh ... do you do a lot of 'net surfing? Because I happen to know a large fanbase who is in FAVOR of a prequel series.

Frankly, I don't see why everyone's so upset about it. Sounds like the people against the premise of Enterprise need to yank the stick out of their ass. What does it contradict ... ?

The series takes place before Starfleet is created, so, hey, Kirk's E is still the first in Starfleet ...

Since it's not Starfleet, what's the problem with T'Pau serving on the ship? Especially since she's got a Vulcan rank?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Bakula on the other hand, is coming into the series, not out of it. He may have a boyish charm but does he have "command presence"?

Also you give too much credit to Berman and Braga. DS9 debuted with over 18.8 in ratings and ended with just over 5, with the low fours on the final episodes. Voyager likewise debuted with ratings nearly 20, but now its final episodes could only get just over 3 at the average. That's a massive bleeding of the fan base. Out of five people who watched TNG at the start of the decade, four no longer watches Star Trek at the end of the decade.

I am not saying not to watch this---every SF show should be encouraged, but people are allowed to voice their skepticism. Most particularly, that its the producers, and the formula or format that may be the problem, not the timeline.

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 12, 2001).]
 

And, Crobato, I don't judge a TV show's merits by it's ratings. DS9 was one of the best TV shows produced -- in my opinion, the best Trek ever produced. But not many people watched it. Does that make it less of a success? Does that lesson Berman's contribution to it? You know, Wonder Boys didn't do that well in theatres ... by your way of thinking, Michael Douglas must be a lousy actor.

Targetemployee: believe it or not, the vast majority of fans don't give a rats ass about the minor discrepancies between Enterprise and TOS, and they don't care if the Eugenics Wars took place in 1996, or 2045.

The vast majority of fans will be very happy with a well-written TV show, and maybe, just maybe, some of you people out there should stop hating episodes or movies because the bridge set is too big to fit the exterior model! I mean, THAT'S nitpicking!!!

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited May 13, 2001).]
 

Tonight I was watching "Olympia" by a noted German artist from 1936. As I watched the film, I came to understand the German people of that year. There were many who passionate about Nazism. And there were many who were complacent about Nazism. And there were very few who complained about Nazism. My point, is this.

We fans are divided into groups-those who are passionate about ST, those who are complacent about ST, and those who are 'complainers' and want to see a change. The producers want and will get the passionate and complacent fans. They will have a difficulty with getting the 'complainers'.

I was a passionate fan many years ago. I bought the required reading, made lists of ST items, and even considered joining a club. Then as I got older I became a complacent fan. I accepted what I got and watch the show regularly. About two years ago, I was a 'complainer'. I didn't like Voyager for I felt the show wasn't credible and this caused me to question the rest of Star Trek. I began to analyse ST and I saw that the world that I liked many years before was not credible. And I voiced this on this board and others. And I ran into a volley demanding to know who I was to think this way and questioning my connection to the fan base. Reading these responses tonight to three simple responses written by me and analysing the responses to other threads, I came to believe that there was a prejudice against certain beliefs in the fan base. This has pushed me further away.

If you don't want to hear from me, either say so or don't read a response I write.

And further more, I am not you. I don't spend hours doing ST. I spend my time in the reading of the Talmud, I spend my time with family and friends, and working. And I am glad not to be you.

Will I be watching the fifth series?
No.

------------------

takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

Paramount liked TNG a lot. It essentially built Paramount's TV arm. It made a hell of a lot of money for them. But TNG wasn't loved because it was science fiction that pulled in the fanboys. It was a high-quality and insightful drama that was popular with a largish segment of the population, that being men and women of most age groups, generally well-educated, and in the hunt for thoughtful and captivating television.

Then as Voyager kicked off on UPN, the cheap-black-comedies-and-cheezy-actionfest network, Voyager couldn't take the above demographics and hang onto them. 21 million viewers for the premiere, and 12 months later we were down to a quarter of that. The aforementioned segment of the population felt that Voyager couldn't live up to TNG's ability to be thought -provoking. In the early 90s, there really were no other really good dramas on TV, but by the late 90s we had shows like Law & Order and Homicide and the whole kit and caboodle to compete with Trek for this same group of smart TV watchers who want smart TV. And Voyager's producers were content to keep Voyager as the "lighter" Trek, and so the hordes left it, not for shows like Xena and Babylon 5, which is a common excuse for declining ratings ("There's more scifi on TV than 1987") but to shows like L&O, ER (before it got too derivative and soapish), and today to shows like The West Wing and The Sopranos. Even Buffy taps into this demographic today as much as Voyager does.

Simple business sense shows that Trek must be positioned back in such a way as attract these good Trek-watching folks who don't spend their lives on the web bitching and whining about turbolift placement but instead care mainly about creative writing and good acting. And all the comments from Rick Berman so far seem to indicate that both Trek X and Enterprise are doing exactly this. They've conceded that Voyager wasn't the sort of show that was meant to bring in those viewers, but rather than overhaul Voyager they've stuck it out and waited until there's a fresh start to fix things.

If the fans who post on TrekWeb's forums made the show, it might keep track of continuity religiously and have entire episodes dedicated to the Klingon forehead, but it would suck absolute nads and get a 2.0 rating. Take your pick.

Paramount are willing to pour millions into Berman and Braga's attempts to revitalize Trek. Apparently they think that the two of them can do it. And who are we to second-guess them? It's Paramount's money on the line here, not to mention the reputation of the Trek franchise. If Enterprise tanks, then anything that Paramount slaps the label "Star Trek" on will pretty much be a joke to the general public for years to come. They seem convinced that B & B will produce a show that will give them a far better return on their investment than Voyager did, or else this show wouldn't be made. And I can't see a show of lesser or equal quality to Voyager giving them that return. So, by process of elimination, Paramount is therefore expecting a show of better quality than Voyager.

Will it be? I'll wait and see.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

Frankly I don't like Michael Douglas as an actor.

Yes, DS9 may also be the best Trek ever, but that is your opinion. There are many who considers it a major deviation from Trek. Being good is not good enough in show business. There are many, many good SF shows that were on TV and they didn't last. I remember one show that was certainly running circles around DS9 in quality and that was Space Above and Beyond. Furthermore, DS9 suffered creatively when it was compared to Babylon 5, which I certainly think is far more memorable of the two. (If TOS was the SF-TV cult of the seventies, B5 is now the new SFTV cult of the new 21st century---after the X-Files, which is THE SF show of the nineties).

Trek is a very expensive show to make and it needs ratings, ratings, ratings. What has been embarrassing is that shows like B5 and Farscape could produce something better for a lesser budget. Maybe you don't give a rat's ass about ratings, but VIACOM does. Sorry to wake you up, but they're not an institution of charity.

And here's one thing, putting examples does not make it right--->

You said:

do you also forget his role as leader of some Pentagon branch in a Tom Clancy TV movie? Me think so

And I say:

Yes, I forgot. That's because his performance there just happens to be forgettable.

------------------
Phasers

 

I don't think a few continuity errors will cause the fan base to run screaming. Unless the above points already suck, in which case, no one will be watching it.

But, hey, you guys wanna miss out on what might be the best thing to happen to Trek since DS9? Be my guest.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

You're in a mighty big illusion that you think this is going to be like DS9.

Where is Michael Piller? Where is Ronald Moore? Where is Ira Behr? These are the important creative pillars of DS9. They wrote, produced and directed. None of them are working on Trek now. You will never get another DS9 especially when their creative founders are no longer there.

I think Moore is with Frakes doing Roswell, and Piller, yes, he has the new Dead Zone project which I am looking more forward to see than Series V. One reason I may tune to Series V is only probably because I will be watching Dead Zone. I doubt they will ever go back to Trek.

Look how Series V has not included Rick Sternbach. Very unfortunate.

When I see the Series V staff list I see the same Voyager vets.

Given how the staff looks, what are you going to expect from Series V? Another DS9? Or Voyager Lite?

As for all the rest of you as well: why so quickly declare you won't watch Enterprise? What will it hurt to tune-in for an episode or two? Who knows -- you might even like it ...

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

All I see is Voyager on a different time line. That is a far more truthful assumption since you do have the Voyager creative (excuse me for the oxymoron) team doing this.

What's really disturbing is that the recent improvement of Voyager's Season 7 episodes may be due to Executive Producer Ken Biller. Unfortunately, this saving grace, Mr. Biller, does not appear that he's going to stay for Series V.

Let me see, who else from DS9's creative team who isn't there anymore. Oh yeah, Hans Beimler, who also wrote and produced many of the DS9 episodes. Another DS9 supervising producer and writer, Rene Echevarria, has gone on to Dark Angel.

Trek isn't just losing fans---it's bleeding creative talent fast.

Oh but never mind Miller, Taylor, Echevarria, Behr, Beimler, all the DS9 executive and supervising producers who has all gone on to better things. Or that Biller and Sternbach may not be renewed for next season.

But be assured that all those creative latex forehead makeup artists from Voyager are going to stay for Series V.

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 13, 2001).]
 

------------------
OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

No, I'm willing to give Enterprise the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to not watch it because there was no Enterprise in the background of a TMP scene.

I'll give Enterprise a fair shot. A lot of you here seem intent on shooting it down because (as far as I can tell):

a) You don't think much of Bakula's acting skills

b) There's no DAMN Enterprise in that TMP scene ... !

c) NO VULCANS IN STARFLEET! (N/M the crew of the Intrepid or that T'Pau's a Vulcan officer -- akin to Kira, an officer of the Bajoran military -- and, er, Enterprise is set before Starfleet...)

d) I HATE VOYAGER! SO I'LL HATE ENTERPRISE! BUT I WATCHED VOYAGER RELIGIOUSLY, BUT I HATE ENTERPRISE AND I HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN A SINGLE EPISODE SO I HATE IT ANYWAY AND I STILL WON'T WATCH IT! NYAH!

::sigh::

Give the show a chance, fellas. Don't think for a hot second that the vast majority of people out there give a rat's ass about these big nits. They care more about ... dare I say it? Storytelling.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Producers
Berman: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager
Braga: [ ]DS9 | [x]Voyager
Howard: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager

Production Designer
Zimmerman: [x]DS9 | [ ]Voyager

Illustrators
Eaves: [x]DS9 | [ ]Voyager
Drexler: [x]DS9 | [ ]Voyager
Martin: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager (Caretaker only)

Scenic Artists
M. Okuda: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager
D. Okuda: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager
Fredrickson: [x]DS9 | [ ]Voyager

Props
Craig Binkley: [ ]DS9 | [ ]Voyager

Set Decoration
Mees: [ ]DS9 | [x]Voyager

Makeup/Hair/Costumes
Westmore: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager
Blackman: [x]DS9 | [x]Voyager
Moore: [x]DS9 | [ ]Voyager

Totals: DS9 12; Voyager 8.

That said, the most important differentiator will be the writing staff, and from what we know already the chances of a whole clatter of Voyager writers jumping ship is slim.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

Mr. Tom, Howard did not work for DS9. You can check her BIO in the Star Trek website.

All you have pointed out are a variety of set designers and artists. It only means they can make Series V *look* good, but none of these are writers/producers that made the creative core of DS9. You're talking about icing. I am talking about the cake.

Let's make it very simple. You can't make DS9 anymore. The creative team has gone on---the core five people who is behind the writing, the vision and the producing.

It troubles me more than Sternbach and Biller may be leaving Trek. Biller is the one factor that strengthened Voyager in the last season. In fact the worst seasons of Voyager tend to be the ones with Braga managing it.

Now as for Bakula. I am not belittling his acting. I just don't think he has the "command presence" to be a captain. He is not an infallible guy. He has not really done well outside of Quantum Leap or playing another character beyond a Sam Becket persona.

Let's look at the competition. Andromeda may be the highest rated syndicated show now. It's last few shows demonstrated great improvement in writing and look. Everyone is looking forward for the second season when it's going to get better budget, better writers and higher profile guest stars. Kevin Sorbo's move from Hercules to Dylan Hunt was pretty good. Sorbo has a strong presence, a deep strong voice, and has consistently played a character that is steadfast to principles and ideals. That helped major going from Hercules to Hunt. But Becket/Bakula has a high voice, heheh "sensitive", "boyish" and constantly whines to Dean Stockwell.

I'm not saying people should not give this show a chance. They should. But don't get their hopes up, and don't project your fantasies and ideals into this show. Don't expect highly. The cast list and the leaked pilot have already shown to me a lot of derivation and unoriginality. The fact already that the show is already trying to sell a bit of sex (sexy actress for T'pau) and star brand name, as well as special effects and looks, instead of building a strong creative writing team, is already suggesting to me that this is one glossy show with high production values, but it's not going to have soul, meat, and passion.

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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

quote:

---

All I see is Voyager on a different time line. That is a far more truthful assumption since you do have the Voyager creative (excuse me for the oxymoron) team doing this.

---

And above I have shown everyone that with all we know about Enterprise's production staff right now, it isn't piled high with Voyager staff. Admittedly, the most important aspect of a series' creative direction is its writers, but WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE YET. So you're drawing baseless assumptions.

As Sol mentioned above, the DS9 writers, despite their success together, have hardly produced wonders when working solo. (Michael Taylor is writing for Voyager these days, AFAIK.) Writers have on days and off days. Braga, IMHO, is a pretty inconsistent guy, alternately giving us masterpieces and utter shite. But so was Ira Stephen Behr (Profit and Lace, anyone?) and Ronald D Moore (Let He Who Is Without Sin?). Does this mean they can't be entrusted with a new series? You seem to be under the impression that if we brought the DS9 writing staff back together we'd have an instant classic.

All I can draw from your posts, Crobato, is that you consider Brannon Braga to singlehandedly be "The Voyager Creative Team," and his work on Enterprise will condemn the show to be identical to Voyager. And he's not.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

A show's creative direction are from the Producers who do set the guidelines for the writers to work on. In fact the people I mentioned are both producers-writers. They have gone on to better things like Dark Angel and the upcoming Dead Zone, whose previews are now getting quite an aclaim.

I am not saying that we can produce another DS9, but I have grave doubts that Braga-Berman is capable of producing a series equal to the quality of DS9.

And yeah, Braga and Berman seems to be producing a lot of crap these days. I got no confidence that their spots can change. The whole Series V thing has shown me they got no vision at all.
 

To Sol,

As for Andromeda, it depends on what you watch. I watched only two eps of Andromeda lately. The first one was utter crap, and Dylan fighting a bunch of prisoners in a prison camp make me think "Hercules" once again.

But the second one was an episode where the ship the Andromeda Ascendant met its sister ship, the Pax Magellanic. That one blew me right off the chair. It's been a while even in Trek I have seen an episode like that.

Andromeda is undergoing a learning process, and given a show as new as this with a low budget, it's blazing a trail of surprises.

Lately I have even seen a writer from Andromeda posting in response to a thread about Andromeda in the general SF section of Trekbbs. This shows people who are in close touch and greatly respects the fans, not remoted and isolated in a pearly tower. They look to fandom to see what's wrong and where they can improve.
 

I've a pictue at home in an old ST Monthly magazine, but I'm never going back there, so you're just gonna have to trust me on this.

------------------
At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

------------------
Lisa: "OK, now we're gonna pick jobs out of the chore hat. Dad, you go first."
Homer: "Come on, bikini inspector...scrub toilet! Ohhhwww...OK, that was a practice..."

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

 

crobato: Sometimes, part of the reason that TV writers avoid fans is that, if they hear a story idea from a fan, they can never use it, because, if they do, that fan might sue them for stealing the idea. That's what I understand, anyway...

------------------
Lister: "Drop dead, Rimmer."
Rimmer: "Already have done."
Lister: "Encore."
-Red Dwarf, "Kryten"
 

As for the ranks, it is merely assumed for the readers or the watchers that the use of terms like commander and general is to give an equivalent perspective. These can be regarded as English translations of such. Terms like General and Emperor never truly existed with ancient cultures either, such as Persian, Babylonian, Aztec and Chinese.

Diane Duane has invented Romulan rankings in her Rihannsu novels. It's non canonical, but it is very respected, such as that many TOS fanficcers follow her Rihannsu model as guidelines in depicting the Romulan empire. For example, the rank of commander is called Riov, and fleet commander is Gael Riov.

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 14, 2001).]
 

------------------
OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!

In Voyager they had all the possibilities to make almost any story they could think of. The show had many great moments, but very often they came up with similar ideas. If they brought in anything new (anything that could expand our knowledge of the Trek Universe) it was often bad technobabble and continuity errors. Well, it wasn't all that bad because it was in the Delta Quadrant in the 24th century, and we could reason that everything exciting and new was exciting and new indeed.

If we let the same people do "Enterprise", they will run out of original ideas even faster. It will either get darn boring to see how the Enterprise spends months to travel from planet to planet - or they will begin to present some exciting "anomaly-of-the-week" or other plots that should be set at a later time. Wrong place, wrong time for such stories.

My new motto:
Enterprise: "To boldly go where no man will go again."

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

quote:

---

I probably won't have a big problem with Vulcan ranks, ships that were not on the recreation deck, or Klingon foreheads. It's the writer's "creativity" that's giving me a headache.

---

Agreed. If there is to be criticism about Enterprise, it should first and foremost be concerned with this stuff, and not ridiculous little details that have a minimal impact on the overall quality of the series.

quote:

---

If we let the same people do "Enterprise", they will run out of original ideas even faster. It will either get darn boring to see how the Enterprise spends months to travel from planet to planet - or they will begin to present some exciting "anomaly-of-the-week" or other plots that should be set at a later time. Wrong
place, wrong time for such stories.

---

The thing is, the only "same people" we know of on the production/writing/creating arm are Berman and Braga. And while I'll be the first to say they've made mistakes in the past and couldn't stabilize Voyager and make it popular and consistently good, that shouldn't nullify some of the excellent work they've done in the past. Every single episode of Deep Space Nine, which tends to be held (rightfully, IMHO) in higher regard than Voyager around here had Rick Berman executive producing it, as did the vast majority of TNG. Braga's had hits and misses, no question, but the vast majority of the criticism levelled at him is quite unfounded.

As for the rest of the creative staff, who knows who they'll bring in. Might one or two Voyager writers be back? Possibly. Needless to say, writers are incredibly inconsistent things. Ira Stephen Behr did little by way of producing blockbusters when he did TNG, did a lot of good work on DS9, but also gave us a clatter of Ferengi comedies that ranged from good to "Profit and Lace". Michael Piller ranged from "The Best of Both Worlds" to "Insurrection" to "Tattoo." So if a grand total of two old faces are on the Enterpise writing staff, let's not condemn the series and believe it only will repeat old plotlines.

All signs seem to point to there being a concerted effort to rid the series of "anomoly of the week." Bakula apparently hates that sort of stuff, and I think that B & B are using the fresh canvas of a prequel to push the focus away from weird tech and back towards the TOS/TNG style of thoughful television. Will the trend hold? I can't make any promises, and yeah, I honestly wouldn't be at all surprised if we do meet quantum fissures and temporal rifts once in a while. But I'm not going blast the show for sins it has yet to commit.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 

------------------
At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

 

I mean, Roddenberry decided he wanted "alien-looking" Klingons for TMP and therein caused the biggest continuity error ever, but that hasn't stopped fans from worshipping the ground he walked on. Braga's continuity record isn't nearly as abysmal as the majority of the net claims it is. Aside from some fiddly history on the early origins of Borg/Federation contact (which drew "legally" on seeds sown in Generations, which had net-appointed demi-God R.D.M. involved) he hasn't made any major violations of the Chronology.

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30