Flare Sci-Fi Forums: ANOTHER Galactic Map...

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

This time, from the Dominion Wars game.

http://www.gamespy.com/asp/image.asp?/previews/june01/ds9dw/1.jpg

Have at it, folks!

Mark

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Probably more of a GD topic...

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Possibly. Whoops!

Mark

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Not much new in this map. The relative positions are as we are used to seeing them in Paramount-related sources (like the DS9 TM). The relative sizes seem odd, giving the sidekick Cardassians as much space as if not more so than our traditional big three. And the Borg seem really tiny in relation to the others.

Of course, in absolute terms, each empire is gigantic, and the use of Okudaic warp speeds is impossible. But if we assume each empire is "zoomed into" while leaving the galactic background unzoomed (but all the Alpha empires are zoomed into collectively, not empire by empire), then the relative positions seem quite okay to me.

Now why the heck did they have to create that new logo for the Dominion? And why is it "Klingon Star Empire" now, instead of just "Klingon Empire"? All the other empires get the short form: "Cardassia" instead of "Cardassian Union", for example.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Yuk! I think I'll settle with Christian R�hl's design again.

Posted by The_Evil_Lord (Member # 256) on :

I don't like it. There is way too much 'empty' space between our big three Alpha powers, and their representation on the map is exagerated hugely. Also, why the heck is Dominion space (judging from the relative positions of the wormhole and the blob that indicates their territory) almost 20.000 lightyears away from the Gamma endpoint?!

Borg space seems to be located at the extreme edge of the galaxy, whereas everything we've seen about them so far indicates a massive amount of Borg-controlled volumes near the galactic core.
In fact, Borg territory is not much bigger than that of any Alpha power, and a lot smaller than "Jem'Hadar"!

Other minor details: United Federation of Planets, Klingon Empire, Dominion Alliance, Romulan Star Empire... they got all the names wrong. It's small things like these that help a Trek title.

[ June 19, 2001: Message edited by: The_Evil_Lord ]

Posted by Mr. Christopher (Member # 71) on :

Call me crazy, but aren't Bajor, the wormhole, and the Badlands outside of Cardassian space? Seems to me the Badlands are on the edge of Cardassian space and the Bajor system is either on the edge of Federation space or in between the UFP and the CU.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I always got the impression that following the original treaty Bajor was now located in the DMZ, along with all the colony worlds which would give rise to the Maquis. If the game is set at the height of the Dominion War, though, after the JH readicated the Maquis, many of those formerly neutral systems might now be under overall Cardassian control?

Posted by Wes1701E (Member # 212) on :

The size of the federation and cardasian empire are off, the placement seems right, its just the size of the space is completely off... doesnt the federation have a neutral zone with the romulans? I dont think its that big...

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Basically, the whole map is totally fucked. That about sums it up. :-)

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yeah. Would have nicely ended this thread, too, but I just had to add one comment.

Namely, I don't think Bajor ever was in the DMZ. Every reference to the DMZ had the heroes *traveling* there *from* Bajor. And DMZ was supposed to be Cardassian space, not neutral - it was simply demilitarized. Bajor wasn't Cardassian space in the show, except briefly during the Dominion war.

The map glimpsed in "For the Cause" showed the DMZ as a narrow belt well clear of the DS9 symbol (two-three map grids' worth, and the grids might have been about one lightyear per side if the Cardassian logo on the other side was supposed to be Cardassia Prime, 5 ly from Bajor).

That map would also seem to prove that the DMZ was effected not only in those areas of Cardassian space that bordered on UFP holdings, but also on areas that bordered on neutral space, or space held by third parties. UFP space never seemed to extend all the way to DS9 during the course of the series.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

That's yet another map made without any consideration. No matter if we take speeds or gives distances as references, it just doesn't work out at all. If the map were correct, either Voyager should have been home within a few days or the journey to the Klingon Empire should take decades. And who made up the symbol for the Jem'Hadar (which should read "Dominion")?

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

And the original Earth-Romulan Wars would have required Transwarp drive.

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

A agree with a lot of the comments here. Even though this has appeared another thread, this was a chart I created a while ago based on my interpretation of local space. But no matter how many maps there are, in no cases will everyone agree - eg, there's plenty about my map I'm not entirely happy with -

http://www.trekmania.net/science/gal5.jpg

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Dominion space is labelled "Dominion". It's just the one planet that's labelled "Jem'Hadar".

Posted by crobato (Member # 542) on :

Stories are never made with any consideration with cartography. Trying to create a map based on the canon dialog/script evidence would lead to absolute nonsense. After all, in Star Trek V, the Enterprise A got to the Galactic core in one movie, while the much more advanced Voyager has to take seven years of TV to even get nowhere close.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

That's why most people recognize ST5 to be a piece of crap, at least as far as the technical side of things goes. After all, if be believe it, the E-A had its decks numbered from bottom to top, and there were over seventy of them.

Posted by crobato (Member # 542) on :

So the point is what, that ST5 is incorrect and Voyager is correct? Frankly I think that Voyager's assumption in the length of travel is quite ridiculous. By normal Trek standards, it should take them at 3 years at most to reach the Galactic center to the central point where the Alpha quadrant would begin.

Note that some people here already say that the Fed and various empire space is too small. (The Fed has something like 8,000 light years in area). Yet there are others who contradict themselves by saying that you need transwarp to surmount the distances viewed. If empires or the Federation were any bigger, you would need transwarp just to effectively govern the area. And yet if you wish to reconcile the views, everything has to be roughly lumped into a small slice of the galaxy---the Cardassian U, the Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Fed---and the end result will make them all look like small minor players fighting for a tiny pie of the galaxy instead of the fate of two whole galactic quadrants (to totally de-epic the scale of the setting).

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: crobato ]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I've never seen anyone claim the Federation is too small. (Too small for what?)

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

No one can go through the center. Well, they CAN, but they won't LIVE.

Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :

...But the Enterprise did spend ten days in the 'so believed' centre of the galaxy in The Nth Degree.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

NEAR the center of the galaxy. The problem is the fact that Shapley noted the HUGE amounts of radiation emanating from the galactic center, so much that any organism headed there would be long dead far before reaching the midpoint.

Something to steer clear of, indeed.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

OK, several things:

1. Yeah, that map is the biggest, piece of crap.

2. I mean a quick search on the net would find our endless hours of discussion on this subject.

3. That is criminal to replace the Dominion Logo

4. It's not "The Jem'Hadar" it's "The Dominion"

4. It's not the "Dominon Alliance" nor the "Federation Alliance"

5. Minor pick - that's the TOS version of the Klingon Empire Logo. MOVIES/TNG onwards it's red.

6. It's just the Klingon Empire

7. Yes, too much space, too spread out, relative sizes just wrong.

8. The whole problem with these maps is having 'boarders' and '2 dimensions' - my recent rough maps have been depiciting the areas as totally intermingled - to a point - mainly with the Klingons and Romulans with their many border wars... and lots of wholes - cause I don't reckon that interstellar space would be easy to claim if there are only one or two systems near by... I believe that if there was like a group of 9 systems, then it would much easier to say 'hey everything between these worlds is Federation space' So many more gaps and wholes are needed in maps as you get further out from 'core worlds'

9. The show the Starfleet symbol instead of The Federation logo.

10. Just for the record

The United Federation of Planets
The Klingon Empire
The Romulan Star Empire
The Cardassian Union
The Ferengi Alliance
The Tholian Assembly
The Sheliak Corporate
The Dominion
The Borg Collective or just (the Borg are here stay the fuck away)

The Gorn (Hegemony)*not official*

11. Idran is not that far away from Dominion Space

12. Re The centre of the galaxy and The Great Barrier... my theory is that the 'Great Barrier' may lay toward the centre of the Milky Way from the Fed's Klingon's and Romulans but its not the EXACT centre... its a veil or curtain or... BARRIER that is towards the centre... Only after TFF, did the anyone from the Fed area of space happen to get past it. This 'bubble' that is the Great Barrier might be halway between the Federation and the actual centre of the Galaxy... so making the TFF travel time viable.

OR my other theory, is that from the time that Sybok made it on Board the Enterprise - his 'undiciplined' Vulcan mind led everyone on a 'mind' journey - and not an actual physical journey.

Andrew

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Or then McCoy's "secret ingredient" sent Kirk and Spock on a "mind journey" during their camping trip, and the movie depicts the events of this journey. The opening scenes before the campfire scene might or might not have taken place in the real universe...

Seriously, forks, I'd like to suggest a thing about Idran that sort of agrees with this silly map. Remember how at first, the wormhole was supposed to go 90,000 ly (in "Emissary"), but this was later amended to 70,000 ("Captive Pursuit" onwards, IIRC)? Hey, perhaps both figures are right. Perhaps the wormhole at first went to Idran, but the Prophets then moved its far end some 20,000 ly to another destination (possibly so that it would allow access to the Dominion and thus let the Emissary meet his destiny - an arrangement the Prophets hadn't thought of before they were awakened to the concept of linear time and encountered the Emissary, whom they then decided to retroactively create).

A moving wormhole end would allow us to dispense with the Idran reference, which places "the closest star to the wormhole mouth" uncomfortably far away. "Whispers" establishes that one can reach other Gamma stars far more rapidly than one could reach Idran. "Destiny" shows us there are tail-trailing comets in the vicinity, meaning there's a star nearby as well. Heck, even "Battle Lines" already suggested one could reach a star system very rapidly.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Dr. Bashir pointed out Idran to Kai Opaka when they emerged in the Gamma Quadrant.

Did we see the 'sword of the prophets' before it entered the wormhole? Maybe its proximity to the denorious belt (one would assume that there would be one accompanying the Gamma Quadrant end) of high neutrino emissions might have something to do with the tail...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The comet had a tail as soon as we got our first glimpse of it - so there had to be a star nearby. Interestingly, the wormhole apparently manifested some kind of a gravitational pull every time it opened, hence it pulled in the comet as well. One wonders if the Alpha end did the same, and how this affected the orbital mechanics of the wormhole/Bajor'baha'el/DS9 system...

Idran was rementioned? Ah, too bad. There goes that explanation. Then again, we could simply say that the probe that originally mapped Idran got the star right but its location grossly wrong - perhaps the probe had hit a wormhole or other anomaly that had propelled it 20,000 ly backward and confused the inertial navigation system or something? Only the Bajoran wormhole allowed the Federation to measure the distance accurately, correcting it from 90,000 ly to the final value as soon as a properly equipped Oberth had gone through and done enough measuring.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

A not unreasonble explanation. It's also possible that the runabout sensors got screwed up by it's first wormhole experiece and measured it wrong. And no-one told Bashir.

"baha'el"

Huh? Wha tha?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

The name of Bajor's sun, from the DS9 tech. manual. Source, assuming it has a source outside of the book, is unknown. But it's not all that likely we'll get a different, canon name any time soon, so it seems like a safe one to use.