Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Losing faith (Fair haven $)

This is topic Losing faith (Fair haven $) in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/963.html

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

I can't seem to find a thread discussing "Spirit Folk", the continuation of the theme from "fair Haven" (I mis-titled the thread i'm afraid) here, but there damn well should be one. I haven't seen the ep, but I've read reviews and synopses and am horrified to conclude this may be the worst hour of Trek ever made. Yes, worse than "Shades of Grey".

Holodeck goes haywire?
Characters come to life and act in a tediously predicatable fashion?
Our heroes (TM) manage to act with incredible stupidity?

If anyone has seen this ep please tell me it's done tongue-in-cheek and not as a "serious drama".

Right now, for the first time ever, I am considering giving a Star Trek a miss.

------------------
"No way man!
I've served my time in hell, and I ain't going back...
Not without a fight!"

[This message has been edited by Montgomery (edited February 29, 2000).]

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I haven't seen it yet, but opinions seem to be runing about 50/50 at the BBS. Some liked for humor, others hated it. I'll let you know after I see it Saturday.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :

I have seen it and didn't mind it. It had some very funny spots in it. There is what some may consider drama, I would consider them moments of tension. These were ok not the best in the world but not the worst. All in all a good ep in my book, not original but good.

------------------
Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

I agree with Tec. It can hardly be labeled "The 'Shades of Grey' of Voyager." I mean... It had a plot. That's a plus!

Seriously, it was humourous in spots, and it raised some interesting questions, had good continuity, and was enjoyable IMO.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Of course it's not the "Shades of Grey" of Voy. Nothing could ever top (or bottom?) "Threshold".

Not the best ep ever, but not the worst, either. At least the holoprogram didn't just vanish, never to be mentioned again. We're finally getting a little continuity, people!

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Er, that implies that there never was any before.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I have the rough outlines of a theory which holds that Voyager is actually getting more maddening in terms of continuity while improving on a show by show basis. Stay tuned for more!

------------------
"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

Maddening in a good way or a bad way?

[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited March 01, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's hard to say, really. Voyager has, in my eyes, switched from having seasons full of one-off episodes to seasons full of shows that almost, but not quite, carry themselves forward from previous plots.

In other words, Voyager is throwing out lots of stories that could be mined for much more than a single episode. The problem is, they haven't been. This season has to hold some sort of record for most promising plot threads that are almost followed up on. We've seen the ship take on all sorts of fellow castaways this season, something that I have always wanted to see. But little or no followup. And so it is maddening. This is contrasted to earlier seasons, where the episodes were almost all stand alone in nature, making a lack of connectivity much less worrisome.

------------------
"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, personally, I didn't like it. But here are the basics; decide for yourself:

It's a holodeck episode. For some, this falls under "'nuff said".

The holodeck characters gain sentience. In the old days, this didn't happen unless you made the mistake of actually telling the computer to do it. Now we have it happening on it's own. Explanation? "Somebody left the holodeck running too long."

Like moral dilemmae? They got it covered, but, boy, did they ever **** it up! Members of the crew are taken hostage by the holocharacters and proclaimed witches. At one point, they're going to be burned at the stake. What's Janeway's solution? Shut down the holodeck and save her crewmembers' lives? Nope. Try to negotiate w/ photons and forcefields while the crewmembers could be killed at any moment. Apparently Janeway has now decided that it's more important to not destroy this holoprogram, than it is that her helmsman and chief operations officer stay alive.

------------------
Jackson: "Basically, he was the original Satan."
O'Neill: "Well, isn't that special?"
-Stargate SG-1: "Serpent's Song"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

On the other hand, if the holodeck characters really are sentient, deactivating the program constitutes a form of mass murder.

Not that the episode was about that, really. It was just some light holodeck comedy, mostly.

If I were a holodeck programmer, I'd be sure to write a little program along the lines of "Do not create self-aware computer programs unless specifically asked." It would cut down on a lot of trouble. Alternately, I would imagine that the capabilites of future holodecks might be massively downgraded, at least in regards to their ability to create such sentient entities. After all, true sentience isn't required for an enjoyable and realistic holodeck experience.

------------------
"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Ghastly mistake. Holodeck characters must not be allowed to become sentient at the drop of a hat. Moriarty was a one-off, created because the computer threw a wobbly when Data asked it to do a tricky thing.

The Doc is the only other example, and I rationalised this on the grounds that he is the most sophisticated, heavily-programmed and intelligent holocharacter ever devised. Even so, it required a prolonged eriod of activation for him to become sentient - you could say it's an "emergent property" of his program.

Run of the mill holocharacters are not this sophisticated. I don't give a toss how many times a character gets freaked out becaue a monir glitch in one line of their code allows them to scream when an arch is called up. I suspect Janeway seriously loses it in this ep, becoming more interested in retaining her hologrammatic "blow-up man" than in saving her people. REAL people. Sheesh, why doesn't Chakotay releive her on grounds that she's incapable due to sexual frustration!

------------------
"No way man!
I've served my time in hell, and I ain't going back...
Not without a fight!"

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Before Janeway would of shut down the program she had the Doctor go in and try to work things out. With his mobile emitter it made him separate from the program. However once it was remove they said he became intergrated with the program. I guess that was to suggest if they killed the program the Doctor would go with it. Of course I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have a backup EMH program.

------------------
"The Borg wouldn't know fun if they assimilated an amusement park" - Torres
Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

IIRC there was no backup Doc program. They had to us another program, also played by Picardo, to stableize the Doc.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

Then what the hell was that program that looked and acted like the doc in that one episode where that doc had to set the record straight about Voyager for that one species several centuries in the future? They thought that Voyager and her crew were aggressors and violent.

What was that episode called? It had a good looking Warship Voyager.

------------------
7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me."
Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?"
7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."

Posted by KXZ (Member # 119) on :

PopMaze: It was "Living Witness"

------------------
"You're right. They wouldn't be able to see anything but the top of your head. The glare could blind them."
-B'Ellana Torres, Virtuoso

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

I liked it better than the "Doc singing Opera" ep !! That one SUCKED ...

This one wasn't too bad, but let me tell ya, if they NEVER EVER do another Fair Haven Ep ... I wouldn't miss it .. Quite frankly, the first one was enough ...

Let's get back to space exploration, and cut the crap!

------------------
-There can be only Nine !! ..mmm.. maybe 10 !!

- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax:

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Monty:

I saw it this weekend. I LMAO!! The Doc was priceless. I don't know what the flap is all about, it was a good ep.

OK, so a lot of stuff happened that shouldn't be able to happen, but it was funny, and I enjoyed it.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited March 06, 2000).]

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

I liked it, but not as much as the first Fair Haven ep (Paris could've acted with a bit more sense). I didn't think the villagers became sentient; they just reacted when they see others turn into cows and disappear into thin air. I read The Crucible last year, and they weren't really exaggerating that witch-burning stuff. Plus I have a soft spot for Michael Sullivan.

------------------
"One more day before the storm
At the barricades of freedom!
When our ranks begin to form
Will you take your place with me?"
--Enjolras, "One Day More," Les Miserables

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Ziyal: That's the point. Holodeck characters are programmed to ignore anything that isn't normal to the program. If this programming is damaged and they start noticing things (arches and such), they're pretty much self-aware, i.e. sentient.

------------------
Homer: "I can see what's happening. They did it to Jesus, and now they're doing it to me."
Marge: "Are you comparing yourself to our lord?!"
Homer: "Well, in bowling ability..."
-The Simpsons

Posted by TerraZ on :

Someone should really program Holodecks so that caracters and events can't damage them. Remember the holographic explosives in "The killing game" and now holographic bullets destroying a computer panel

And let's not mention the ridiculous four-decks high holodeck in the former... >

------------------
-If you took that broomstick out of your tail-pipe once in a while, you might have some FUN for a change!
*Rattrap - Beast Wars*

-Let the Fates land where they may!
*Megatron - Beast Machines*

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Oh, yes... I'd forgotten the shotgun that can blast computer consoles. Even w/ the safeties off, the holograms should only be able to affect the people in the holodeck. Anyone who would design a holodeck that is capable of damaging itself is just stupid. Same goes for any writer who would write a story in which this happens. :-)

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Therein lies the problem with Trek today.(the show, not the zine

)The writer don't pay attention to what they are writing, or worse, they don't care.

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf