Flare Sci-Fi Forums: So, Species 8472 lives in the beta quad.

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Posted by MIB on :

Fairly minor "Unimatrix Zero, part 2" spoiler warning... -TSN

According to "Unimatrix Zero part 2" species 8472 lives in the Beta quadrant. They are also, undoubtably, a major power in the Beta quadrant as well. Also, Axim said that he was going to try asking for 8472's help in defeating the borg. Do you think we are going to see more of 8472?

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[This message has been edited by TSN (edited October 05, 2000).]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
According to "Unimatrix Zero part 2" species 8472 lives in the Beta quadrant. They are also, undoubtably, a major power in the Beta quadrant as well.

*runs crazy against wall* This has to be a joke. Oh, I hate Voyager. First it wrecked the Borg and now Species 8472. :-(

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited October 05, 2000).]

Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :

He just said he was patrolling the border of fluidic space. It looks like you can enter fluidic space wherever you create the singularity portal. Maybe there is just some natural conduit in the Beta Quadrant that the Borg have discovered and are keeping an eye on. With their transwarp conduits, the Borg can hang out anywhere in the galaxy. They managed to send some drones back home before the Wolf 359 cube was destroyed at Earth. Just my two cents.

G | D
|
|
| *<-(Voyager?)
_________|__________
|
|
| *<-(fluidic space border?)
A | B

So much for my little ascii graphic of the galaxy. The Alpha and Gamma Quadrants got scrunched.

[This message has been edited by Galen (edited October 05, 2000).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

AGH!

It goes like this!

G|D
---
B|A

There is NO reason to think that the Beta quadrant is in the southeast corner. It'd make no sense to put it there. Things aren't designated in random orders. They're designated clockwise or counter. If that were the case, then Voyager would be excited about getting to the BETA quadrant, not the Alpha quadrant.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
There is NO reason to think that the Beta quadrant is in the southeast corner

Wasn't there a computerdisplay, which makes
G|D
---
A|B
canon?

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :

No, it IS...

Gamma ] Delta
-------------
Alpha ] Beta

They just labled it oddly, is all...

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Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

Yes, there was a clearly labeled map onscreen in "Pathfinder," showing

G | D
_____

A | B

On the other hand, that same map showed Voyager in the Beta Quadrant, so maybe that's not the best example...

And I agree with Galen's interpretation of the Beta Quadrant statement. There may not be a naturally-occuring portal there, but they might be scanning the part of fluidic space congruent to the Beta Quadrant to make sure everything's quiet.

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"Have you ever tried factoring Optimus Prime?"

-TSN, TrekSunday, 9/17/00

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

Didn't Axun say that he was in a Borg ship patrolling the edge of fluidic space on the OTHER side of the galaxy? If Voyager is STILL in the Delta Quadrant, then wouldn't the opposite side of space be in the Alpha Quadrant?

Gamma - Delta <- Voyager

Galactic
Core

Fluidic Space -> Alpha - Beta

Or have the Beta and Alpha Quadrants been flipped? It makes logical sense to me fluidic space or a gateway into it is in the Alpha.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

No, he said it was in Beta quadrant. Whether he said it was on the other side of the galaxy, I'm not sure, but assuming he did, that wouldn't nesecarily mean exactly opposite Voyager on a line passing through the galactic core. But assuming it did, it would more support my model. So there.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by MIB on :

Yes, Axim later said that he was on a scout ship in the Beta quadrant. And it was established earlier in the episode that Axim's scout ship was patrolling fluidic space.
There are three ways to be "on the other side of the galaxy" if your in the delta quadrant, or any quadrant for that matter. The Delta and Beta quadrants, for example, Are on two different sides of the galaxy (The delta quad is on the north side and the Beta quad. is on the south side) even though they are both on the east side of the galaxy. Soontir, What I am trying to say in this seriously long-winded and over complicated speech is that Axim meant "on the other side of the galaxy" in terms of North to South, not North-east to South-west.

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If anyone has a Star wars action fleet E-wing starfighter or Tie defender toy they want to sell, please E-mail me at [email protected]

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited October 06, 2000).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

But why is there any reason to think that? The only evidence that Beta is in SE is a graphic that we know to be screwed up in the first place.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

I see...usually when someone says 'the other side' of something one would usually think of almost directly opposite of what they are talking about. I forgot that this is Voyager that is being discussed. Normal logic doesn't apply.

From what you've said MIB, I see your logic with the Delta/Beta locations. But still, wouldn't access to fluidic space need a gateway or portal? Wasn't Species 8472 mentioned as being from another universe/dimension/reality? I though that this species was really far out from normal Trekian races.
Being Beta Quadrant based makes them seen so much more normal than they were portrayed in Scorpian.

Then again maybe it's just me :P

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

The Vorlon lives!!

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Sailing the Slipstream

Posted by spyone on :

1) The quadrants are numbered counter-clockwise, using greek letters in order: Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma. This has been shown in the map in the DS9 Technical Manual and confirmed on screen.
Also, Rick Sternbach has confirmed that Voyager is very close to entering the Beta Quadrant.

Voyager is excited about returning to the Alpha Quadrant because earth lies on the Alpha/Beta border, so they need to reach the Alpha Quadrant to reach Earth.

2) "The other side of the Galaxy" is vague. If I am in Maine, I might call Seattle "The other side of the country", despite the fact that San Diego is more diametricly opposed. All we can say for certain about Axum's location is that it is in the Beta Quadrant, it is near/on a border of fluidic space, and it is distant from Voyager's current location.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[This message has been edited by spyone (edited October 06, 2000).]

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :

Actually, IIRC, Gamma comes before Delta in the Greek alphabet...

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"Have you ever tried factoring Optimus Prime?"

-TSN, TrekSunday, 9/17/00

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

It does.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Message In a Bottle also shows the Beta Quadrant in the "4 o'clock" position... The Prommie was on the edge of Romulan space there.

If you lived in Maine... Florida is ALSO on the otherside of the country...

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"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :

All I know is that I really don't want to see Seven getting all smootchy and human-like with her new little idealist Borg-toy. If they're gonna be plowing through the Beta Quadrant, you know they're gonna hook up. That might just be too painful for me to watch.

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Posted by Alpha Centauri (Member # 338) on :

It seems like that ST production staff members need some re-education about the Greek alphabet. Not only did they ordered the quadrants Alpha, Beta, Delta, Gamma counter-clockwise, but the TNG:TM also shows a graphic of a tricorder with a couple of buttons ordered
___________
|ALPHA|BETA |
|-----------|
|DELTA|GAMMA|
-----------

(AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH! Why do ASCII figures always get f**ked up??!!)

if I remember it correctly. Anyway, it was screwed up.

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2376.

[This message has been edited by Alpha Centauri (edited October 07, 2000).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The tricorder drawing in the TNG TM was indeed screwed up, but none of the actual tricorder props were - they always had a regular alpha-beta-gamma-delta sequence for those four mysterious buttons.

The only map to use the actual names "Alpha Quadrant" and "Beta Quadrant" yet may be the one we saw in "Message in a Bottle", but there are other maps of interest. TNG used a map with lots of little yellow boxes, in two different versions. One was an "edge-on" perspective view to our galaxy, with the core on the background, Klingon and Romulan homeworlds to the right and numerous TOS locations and real star names scattered to the left. This was apparently supposed to be some sort of a UFP map, and was shown in several TNG episodes. DS9 resurrected the map for the O'Brien schoolroom wall decoration, and supposedly added Cardassia and Bajor to the left side of the map.

Some other TNG episodes like "The Emissary" used a traditional view of the galaxy from "above", with the little boxes drawn on the lower half of the map, Earth on the vertical centerline.

If the TNG/DS9 box map is to be believed, then "lower right" is where Klingons and Romulans live, and "lower left" is where the Cardassians are. "Directly down" from galactic core is where Earth sits. This all agrees with the idea that Alpha is lower left and Beta is lower right, since Cardassia is definitely in Alpha while Klingons have at least some holdings in Beta (as per ST6). However, this map tells nothing about the relative arrangements of Delta and Gamma. In fact, it predates the invention of galactic quadrants by Paramount.

Also of interest is the fact that the "box map" shows a Federation thousands of lightyears across, with something like 10,000 ly between Earth and Cardassia alone. Unless this is some sort of a "zoom-in" map, of course...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by spyone on :

Gee. Mine has the other quadrants clearly labeled. It also shows the end of the Bajoran Wormhole and the location of the Caretaker's Array from Voyager.

However, your other point is easilly conceded:
I have scanned and blown up the map, and the Federation shown is about 1500ly across, while the Ferengi get 2000ly, and Cardassia 3500. The Romulan Border is 2000ly from Federation space, and every other power is more than 1000ly away. And more...

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

2000LY for the FERENGI!?

I seriously doubt that their space extends much beyond their homeworld, unless they've got some other races couquered. Ferengi females can't leave the homeworld, so how're they gonna start colonies?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

By purchasing them, I imagine.

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--
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Posted by spyone on :

To be claer (which I wasn't), the thing I called "mine" was not a thing of my own creation. I was refering to the map in the DS9 Tech Manula, which (at least I thought), someone had said wasn't labeled.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

For clarity's sake, it should be mentioned that there are two relevant maps in the DS9 TM. One shows the entire galaxy, with those huge thousand-ly empires labeled. Another shows Bajor, Cardassia and Ferenginar, all neatly within 50 ly of each other.

Also, the text basically confirms the scale of this latter map and contradicts the former. Even if we assume that the latter map omits 3D info and Ferenginar is actually thousands of lightyears "above" or "below" the map plane, the text clearly says that it's just 50 ly from Bajor to the "UFP inner defence perimeter" or somesuch. This doesn't agree with the wide gulfs between Earth, Cardassian territory and Ferengi territory seen in the former map.

So the galactic map must be "partially zoomed in" into the empires of interest, or something like that.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I gather that the Ferengi may have conquered the Hypurians... (Zek's butler Maihardu) and Hypurian Beetle Snuff... and in "Legends of the Ferengi" (Yeah not canon but written by them so...) That the only real war fought by the Ferengi was against the Hypurians...

Of course Ferengi Women probably can leave Ferenginar - they just have to probably be 'shipped' like cargo.

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"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Which brings to mind... What was the race that threatened the ten brave Ferengi who later became legends for standing their ground (and being slaughtered to the last goblin)? You know, the legend Nog quoted in "The Magnificient Ferengi"?

I would assume that the Ferengi had traveled quite far from their homeworld before they made contact with the Federation. After all, they lament in "The Nagus" that the entire Alpha quadrant already knows them by their bad reputation. How much of that "entire" is hyperbole is left for the reader to decide, but it sounds as if the Ferengi indeed had a trade empire at least a couple of thousand lightyears across.

A trade empire, mind you - not one where the planets have been conquered and occupied. The Ferengi have probably roamed space skipping the unpromising sales prospects and concentrating on the profitable ones. The Federation first met them at Gamma Tauri, and anything with "Taurus" in the name should be towards the rim from Earth - but all maps show Ferenginar corewards and rotationwards from Earth. So this would suggest that there was lots of Ferengi-visited space between Ferenginar and Gamma Tauri, but this space was not really occupied or even truly frequented by the Ferengi and the Feds thus never met them there.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Of course the Ferengi might have DELIBERATELY avoided the Federation... instead dealing with 'easier targets' like say hmm... the Denebians... you know from Encounter...

Andrew

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"I threw bitter tears at the ocean
But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan