Obviously, the officer ranks are simple.. they were all established in Encounter at Farpoint.
But on the flag ranks, there were a few wierdnesses shown in season 1-2 of TNG before a system was decided on.. does anyone have any good caps or info on the insignia on: Admiral McCoy Q's admiral uniform (wierd) Admiral Jameson Admiral Quinn & the "Conspiracy" flag officers the Admiral from "Emissary" and Admiral Nakamura in 'Measure of a Man' and also im compiling a tally of admiral ranks from season 3-on to try and see which admirals were which rank (i.e. the Nechayev wierdness)
and I'm also contemplating the compilation of an O'Brien tally -- for how many times he was an ensign or lieutenant before they settled on the warrant/petty officer wierdness of his hollow pip or three chevron insigniae.
does anyone know what insignia the Chief on the Valiant in the episode of the same name had -- i believe she is the only other non-com to ever have insignia besides O'Brien, but i need to look to make sure (Muniz or anyone on Voyager have chevrons?)
and the final question: Kosinski, warrant officer with a single silver rectangle?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
BTW, I've found the relevant passages on the 'Commodore' rank in the 24th century fron the J & G Reeves-Stevens novel Preserver. While some are loathe to consider the Shatnerverse as fitting anywhere near canon, this definition does seem to be plausible and it works.
quote:But the mystery of Commodore Twining extended beneath surface appearances. Even after four weeks at this base, overseeing the repair work on Enterprise, Riker didn't yet know what division of Starfleet the commodore reported.
What he did know was that the man wasn't the commander of the starbase. That was the job of Captain Kev Randle, whom Riker had seen only twice. Neither was Twining's rank even officially part of Starfleet's chain of command. "Commodore" had been a flag officer rank a century ago, but in Riker's experience, today it was simply an informal title given to the senior captain within a group of ship's captains.
However, after the first meeting between Commodore Twining and the command staff of the Enterprise, Data had confirmed for Riker that though the rank was no longer in common use, it did still remain in Starfleet's files, and several personnel currently held it. Unfortunately, the files Data was able to access had not revealed who those personnel were, or which divisions they worked for.
so commodore is still around, but rarely used, nd probably is the as yet unseen one-pip flag rank. and this explains why Janeway raised from captain to the two-pip flag rank, the one pip rank is a rarity and not a 'necessary' stopping point (possibly a long standing system of that too, recall that Jim Kirk didnt seem to have been a Commodore either). Its probably reserved for specially filled positions of senior captains that arent ready to recieve an admiralcy
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
McCoy was not seen in uniform, but was only referred to as an admiral... retired perhaps? Q's admiral uniform was a wraparound kind with large gold braiding (dress uniform-like), but no pips. The rest of the admirals in the 1st season had the "regular" wraparound with pips decreasing in size. Nakamura (the only admiral from the 2nd season) had a uniform a little like "Admiral" Picard from "Future Imperfect", the pip design was finalized at that point, but they were worn vertically on the collar.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: McCoy was not seen in uniform, but was only referred to as an admiral... retired perhaps?
Almost certainly. I mean, look at him! He's three hundred and eleven!
Also, Kosinski: My vote is for civilian consultant, employed by Starfleet but not in it.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Interesting. One typo: your description of the Lt. rank is the same as that of the Lt. Cdr. rank. Another: Cadet section has reverted to Times New Roman font.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
You should also include the Acting Ensign uniform worn by Wesley Crusher before Picard granted him full Ensign status.
If you remember, it was the blue-gray shirt that had the 3 departmental color stripes along the shoulders (Command, Operations, Science) presumably to indicate he was being educated in all 3 departments.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
No, that was his "I'm a happy little Starfleet brat" sweater. His acting ensign uni was the all-grey one with the ducktail at the waist.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
thanks for all the info.. i feel my sleeping pills kicking in so i may not have time to update the page tonight, but the info is being sorted.
Notes: I hates Times New Roman in webpages. It should die. Fixing.
The second season admirals wore a tunic uniform, but with a high white collar, with some sort of odd insignia I believe.. i really need to find a cap or a vid so i can look at it. BTW, there was another s2 admiral, I only recall that it was a female admiral seen on the viewscreen only. It could have been in "Emissary" but I lack precise recollection. Good to know they used the standard admiral bars rather than the odd s1 versions, thanks.
Admiral McCoy was wearing a militaristic jacket, though, with epaulets, the FASA RPG sourcebook used the markings on them to represent an admiral rank (since it was printed before the later admiral uniforms).. are we sure it wasnt intended to be a uniform?
perhaps Q's uniform was an s1 Admiral dress uniform.
anyone with more naval/military knowledge know of a situation that would fit Kosinski's status? would a civilian be given a uniform with an insignia? or would this fit some permutation of a WO or NCO ?
and Wesley's uniform didnt feature any rank insignia, although it does deserve a mention. I'm planning to keep the more intense uniform theorizing separate, in a subsequent article
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: would a civilian be given a uniform with an insignia?
Not that I am aware of, but there's no reason Starfleet couldn't, even for just a short time as some kind of failed morale boosting program.
Well, wait, I take that back. Sort of. You know the Surgeon General? He or she is the head of a quasi-military agency called the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. As they (somewhat defensively) point out, they're a real "uniformed service," but they aren't exactly soldiers. So, perhaps Kosinski worked for some Federation analogue. This would explain his apparent unfamiliarity with such notions as the chain of command.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
McCoy was wearing his old TOS movie-era pants and boots, strip and all. One wonders how old those were.
Mark
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Perhaps Kosinski was in the Salvation Army, or something. 8)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Q's admiral uniform (wierd)
Seemed to be an Admiral's dress uniform.
quote:Admiral Jameson
1 gold braid, no pips.
quote:Admiral Quinn & the "Conspiracy" flag officers
quote:and also im compiling a tally of admiral ranks from season 3-on to try and see which admirals were which rank (i.e. the Nechayev wierdness)
Nechayev always had 3 pips during TNG. What else do you need?
quote:and I'm also contemplating the compilation of an O'Brien tally -- for how many times he was an ensign or lieutenant before they settled on the warrant/petty officer wierdness of his hollow pip or three chevron insigniae.
O'Brien first appeared with one black pip in TNG Realm of Fear (Season 6).
quote:and the final question: Kosinski, warrant officer with a single silver rectangle?
Actually he had one solid rectangle and one black rectangle. He was really rude to Argyle and Riker. I'd say he was a civilian and Starfleet gave him a provisional rank for the duration of his assignment.
quote:and this explains why Janeway raised from captain to the two-pip flag rank
But she was a 3-pip admiral.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Wasn't Wesley's Acting Ensign communicator also silver instead of gold? I'm almost positive it was.
The problem with Kosinski not being in Starfleet is that we've seen Federation science uniforms and such... like the anthropologists in "Who Watches the Watchers".
However, if he had been given a provisional rank and a provisional staus in Starfleet, I guess that would explain his uniform. His general pissiness to superior officers tells me that he had absolutely no fear of getting in trouble nor any training as a junior officer. He was probably given a provisional rank so as to have authority over the underlings in the various engineering departments he would be working in.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Wasn't Wesley's Acting Ensign communicator also silver instead of gold? I'm almost positive it was.
Yes it was. There was no gold on it whatsoever. It still had the black edge around the arrowhead emblem, but the arrowhead and disk were both silver.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
O'Brien also had the single black pip when he appeared in AGT, which I take to mean that he was meant to have it all through TNG, and would have if Blackman found himself in 1988 about to give Colm Meany his first uniform.
The AGTs appearence also confirms that Meaney's character in Farpoint was O'Brien. His appearence in "Lonely Amoung Us" could be counted as O'Brien or not. There's no evidence either way. I suppose it depends if you think that DS9's first season Starfleet security dude also worked on the Enterprise in engineering during "Brothers".
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
O'Brien definately had one solid pip in AGT.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I suppose it depends if you think that DS9's first season Starfleet security dude also worked on the Enterprise in engineering during "Brothers".
Or if you believe that Lt. Carrey from Voyager served at the Enterprise D's tactical station in the first season TNG Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Or that Tuvok has been living a quadruple life as 23rd-century Starfleet officer, 24th-century terorist, and Klingon.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Or if you believe that Lt. Carrey from Voyager served at the Enterprise D's tactical station in the first season TNG
actually i really dont think that was him (same actor i mean)
BTW, any good caps of Kosinski's pin-skis!?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: [QUOTE] BTW, any good caps of Kosinski's pin-skis!?
Hey, Im new, but I do have a intelligible scan of his pips. However I cant seem to find where to go to upload the pic on this forum (I recall seeing it somewhere but I cant seem to retrace my steps)
As far as his "Rank" he was said to be a "specialist" and did you notice he didnt wear a communicator pin as well? Perhaps he is some sort of enlisted officer, seeing the pip system was still new at that time and that was just their way at the time to signify that?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: O'Brien also had the single black pip when he appeared in AGT, which I take to mean that he was meant to have it all through TNG, and would have if Blackman found himself in 1988 about to give Colm Meany his first uniform.
The AGTs appearence also confirms that Meaney's character in Farpoint was O'Brien. His appearence in "Lonely Amoung Us" could be counted as O'Brien or not. There's no evidence either way. I suppose it depends if you think that DS9's first season Starfleet security dude also worked on the Enterprise in engineering during "Brothers".
E@F - 1987.
O'Brien would have always been O'Brien.
And was Lt. George Primmon on TNG!?! - Maybe it could have been the same guy?
And Carey was on TNG!?!
What about that Janeway chick that Troi was counselling one time - maybe it was Kathryn's sister!?!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
OK, Colm Meaney appeared twice in the first season of TNG, once in Farpoint, i believe he was creditied as 'ensign' or 'conn ensign' or somesuch.. but when they revisited that scene in AGT they called him a chief, not an ensign.
he also appeared in a yellow uniform in 'lonely among us' as an officer who was supposedly in security, but was simply trying to stop a bloodbath between delegates in the corridor.
all of his second season appearances began creditied as 'transporter chief' and then he was named o'brien that year. since the first two were in different jobs, its been questioned whether they were meant to represent the o'brien character he became.
since he was established to have a pre-TNG background as a tactical crew before he became a transporter specialist, security and conn arent too far fetched for him (in fact a position as a specialist -- a grade that sometimes runs counter, as an exception to enlisted ranks -- might explain some, but not all, of the confusion with his rank, beyond the simple mistakes of the fact that he wasn't envisioned as a non-com until the fourth season).
the actor who played Primmin did appear as an enhineer in 'Brothers'. but was called a different name, (Ensign Kopf i believe). so thats a non-issue. it certainly wasnt the same person.
as to the actor who played Joe Carey appearing on TNG, i have no recollection. i dont think this happened.
and Ensign Janeway? fap fap fap, fanboys should just get over the fact that people can have the same names. was Admiral Chekot� related to Chakotay?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Seems I am not a "Senior Member" so I can't be of any assistance with regards to being able to upload any helpful or useful stuff
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: since he was established to have a pre-TNG background as a tactical crew before he became a transporter specialist, security and conn arent too far fetched for him
Didnt O'Brien say he was the tactical officer of the Rutledge under Captain Maxwell? Doesnt that imply the same position Yar, Worf, Tuvok, etc. had on their ships? Why would a enlisted person be at an officers post? just a thought. Also, is it customary for an enlisted officer to go on away missions such as rescue/security detail such as at Setlik? Maybe O'Brien was originally an officer in Starfleet, and then decided to "retire" and then became an enlisted man. I dunno, I guess I am just repeating the above quote but I thought I would add that extra detail.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
On a smaller ship like the New Orleans class Rutledge, I don't see any problem with an enlisted man serving as the tactical officer. A) the crew is going to be pretty small and likely made up mostly of enlisted men, and B) the tactical position probably wouldn't be as tasking a position on that kind of ship as it is on, say, a galaxy class.
As for the actor who played Carrey showing up on TNG... it was one episode in either the first or second season and he was at Tactical in a gold uniform. There were no close ups of him... the only shots were from in front of the conn and ops consoles showing him at the back of the room. BUt between his voice, and his appearance, I'm darn sure it was the same guy. It may have been "Where Silence has Lease"... I just can't remember. Something where Worf was off the ship.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: On a smaller ship like the New Orleans class Rutledge, I don't see any problem with an enlisted man serving as the tactical officer. A) the crew is going to be pretty small and likely made up mostly of enlisted men, and B) the tactical position probably wouldn't be as tasking a position on that kind of ship as it is on, say, a galaxy class.
Granted it was 'implied' that the same supposed class as the Rutledge (the Renegade) was a "frigate" which is defined as "smaller than a destroyer" suggests it is a smaller ship, there is no way to establish its true size and nature based on those correlations, therefore the Rutledge could easily be any size from Intrepid Class to Ambassador Class, and as we recall, the tactical position of the Voyager seem pretty 'tasking' despite the ships damn peculiar imperviousness.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
IMDB lists Josh Clark as "Conn Officer" in the first season episode "Justice". I don't see why it can't be him...
Mark
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Everyone here knows the Rutledge to be New Orleans class for which we have a canon appearance of (as the Kyushu), therefore we roughly know how big (or small) she is.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote: Doesnt that imply the same position Yar, Worf, Tuvok, etc. had on their ships? Why would a enlisted person be at an officers post?
Well, O'Brien was DS9's chief engineer, so I guess he could be a tactical officer too.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well maybe he was a tactical specialist.. you know, the person on the bridge isnt always the only tactical person on the ship.
in "Arena" Kirk beamed down with his top tactical officers, at the Commodore's request.. there was a redshirt, blueshirt and goldshirt if im not mistaken and none of them had regular bridge posts.. remember also that the department got shifted around sometime before the TNG days where it was united under one command, there were previously armory officers, security chiefs, tactical officers, weapons officers and even weapons crews. was the episode specific about what post he worked?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: Everyone here knows the Rutledge to be New Orleans class for which we have a canon appearance of (as the Kyushu), therefore we roughly know how big (or small) she is.
I think that that is completely a matter of perspective. "WE" really havent seen it as anymore than a blink on the screen to which you can establish a size to it whatsoever.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
We do have pics of the study model used and know what scale parts of the E-D plastic models were used. From that we can estimate the general dimensions of the New Orleans class.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
And this may be true to the "MODEL" but not the supposed real ship in the fantasy fleet o' trek. Granted I, like you all have my own ship list, and have gained much info for it off of here, but there are seriously some of you who go way overboard on this stuff...there is much too much speculation indicating much too much free time on some of ya'lls hands.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And yet, you have enough time to come here and tell people that they have too much time on their hands.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Granted. However, if we want to create a fictionally consistent history for O'Brien, we are already doing lots of fanwanking and using of external sources. Establishing the dimensions of the New Orleans class from a backstage photo is peanuts compared to the rest.
What I mean is, if we're not allowed to estimate the Miarecki-intended size for USS Kyushu, then we shouldn't be allowed to determine that O'Brien's old USS Rutledge was a New Orleans class vessel, either. That, too, is merely backstage info.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Perhaps I missed this post, but since we are on the subject of ranks, did anyone else catch the part Data was explaining the system to Lore in "Datalore"? I believe he said: 3 years as an ensign 10-12 at lieutenant grades
Granted this hasnt been consistant over the series/years, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Wasn't he specifically referring to himself?
Data is hardly the best case study you can use when looking at ranks, since he was stuck at Lt Commander longer than anyone else in the history of all mankind ever.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I believe Data was generalizing from his own experiences in that scene, yes.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Data is hardly the best case study you can use when looking at ranks, since he was stuck at Lt Commander longer than anyone else in the history of all mankind ever.
Yes, but we must remember that there are those in the service, be it US Navy, Starfleet or any other military branch, that never make it to the upper ranks for whatever reasons. A lot of officers retire at LCDR or CDR and never make Captain or higher.
I agree that Data did seem at LCDR longer than anyone in the fleet, but than Riker remaind CDR (or First Officer, especially for a man who wanted nothing but a ship of his own) for the longest time as well.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I always figured that Data stayed a Lt. Com. because he wasn't in the command division and really had no desire to be. His rank was completely adequate for his duties and there likely would be no reason to promote him.
Other officers have lamented the limits of wearing a gold uniform, specifically Edington.
Now, there have been certain case where we've seen Data promoted to a higher rank or position. Riker thought about making him first officer in Best of Both Worlds. Jellico put him in a red uniform in Chain of Command. He assumed command of the ship in The Gambit. He was given command of a ship in Unification. Etc. So it's not like he is unqualified to perform command duties, he simply never wanted to pursue that field, I think.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The limits of the gold uniform have been debated before. We have seen a Vice Admiral in those colors ("The Die is Cast") and there were many Commodores in the comparable red shirt in TOS. Eddington's comments might have been directed at the position of a starship captain rather than the rank of Captain...
There is probably more complexity in there than we really want to know about. For example, the progression up the rank ladder might be variable depending on the lifespan of your species - an immortal android isn't in much of a hurry, nor is a Vulcan, so they might not follow the human norm even in a human-dominated organization. OTOH, an Ocampa might receive promotions every second week.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :
I get a headache just thinking about O'Brien's rank status.
However, in the case of Data (and probably the Vulcans), you also have to think of personality as a possible reason that he has spent so much time in the lieutenant grades (though he probably includes all 3 "lieutenant" grades (JG, Lieutenant, LC)). Remember that ambition is a human emotion. Riker shows this early in the series when he talks about being the youngest captain. This would lead you to believe that he is still young, perhaps 28-31, and is looking to be a captain by 33. His ambition probably led him to put himself in a position to be promoted as early as possible. However, Data, having little ambition (he doesn't have NONE, or else he'd just be another robot), probably led him to keep the status quo. This will pass him over come promotion time almost any time. Data's promotions probably were timed at near the greatest intervals because of his lack of ambition. This is probably the same deal with Vulcans.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't think that Lieutenant Commander is a "lietenant" rank, any more than sergeant major is a "sergeant" rank.
Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :
True, true. My point was more on the ambition part. His ambition lies in the human being, and little more. When you haven't much ambition, you'll take less risks. Less risks mean less payoff, and a longer term in the lower grades. The "By the book" captains tend to get there at later ages.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Or spend their lives as lieutenants of astrophysics.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
wow, true, the 'tapestry' timeline had Lt J.G. Picard spending 42 years in the fleet without even a full lieutenancy
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Saiyanman Benjita: However, Data, having little ambition (he doesn't have NONE, or else he'd just be another robot), probably led him to keep the status quo. This will pass him over come promotion time almost any time. Data's promotions probably were timed at near the greatest intervals because of his lack of ambition. This is probably the same deal with Vulcans.
Kinda brings up an interesting point.....and and obscure quote from ST6.
quote: "Human rights". Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "Homo Sapiens" only club.....
For all the complaints about ST not showing a good coverage of human races (Asians in particular), a more noticeable problem with ST as a fictional universe would be the rather small number of Starfleet alien captains, flag officers, etc. Off hand, I can think of a few Federation presidents, a handful of alien captains (mostly in the movies), an android, two Vulcans, a trill, and a changeling. Pretty dismal stuff conisdering that we've already been through four casts, not including Enterprise.
If it is true that ambition has much to do with advancement in Starfleet, and ambition is primarily a human trait, that brings up a rather fundamental flaw in Starfleet....discrimination against Vulcans, androids, and other species...many of which I'd place much more faith in as captains than some of the incompetent human mavericks we've seen.
(And yes I know that the lack of alien captains and high ranking officers has more to do with money and the realities of television....I'm just playing devil's advocate.....or something)
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well, two out of three presidents, thats 66.6%.. that's more than affirmative action would guarantee..
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Umm...you mean two out of the three presidents we've SEEN, I think. There were no doubt a great number of others throughout the years.
Besides, the Presidency and Council (which is obviously made up almost entirely of aliens) are separate from the military---Starfleet (isn't that actually what Azetbur said, rather than "Federation"?)---and as we know from today's world, the military is always a bit more discriminatory than diplomatic bodies.
-MMoM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i'm just saying, for all the US is about diversity, and even going so far as to force affirmative action and we've never even had one president who strayed very far from the caucasian male norm.. UFP must have something on us to have two in a hundred years or two.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think the case regarding what data said may be the standard norm for the average officer. He was to be promoted to first officer of the Ent-E in Nemesis so he evidently had that coming. As far as what he said in "Datalore" regarding the rank schedule, I am assuming it is a sort of "perfect officers" timeline or something. Anyway here is the basic jist of the conversation:
LORE: when can i have a uniform like yours brother? DATA: if you get one the way I did, that would mean 4 years at the academy, 3 years as ensign, and 10 to 12 years of varied space duty at the lieutenant grades.
This of course probably really means nothing as at that point (I dont think the YEAR of TNG was even established), but it would seem reasonable for that to work for him. ASSUMING 2345 was his graduation date (despite his "Encounter at Farpoint" 'class of '79'' reference or whatever) that means 2348 he became some sort of j.g. Lt. (i think startrek.com even confirms this), 10-12 years after that is like 2360....meaning it is quite likely he became a Lt. Cmdr. 4-6 years before TNG, no? Of course then again, Cmdr. Riker apparently made full commander in 7 years, considering LaForge graduated the same year as riker and yet was still only a J.G. the same year Riker made Commander, but then jumped a rank the next two years to follow. Obviously consistancy in rank goes in the same category of the population of Voyager, both of which make your head spin. Anyway, I am not trying to incite an arguement, just seemed since we were talking about rank and I recall that from recently watching that ep. that it would be relavent to place in this string. In anycase, it is fair to say that it is hard to stay consistant with a series from the beginning when you dont have the benefit of retrospect, such as we have reviewing this.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: and as we know from today's world, the military is always a bit more discriminatory than diplomatic bodies.
-MMoM
Not sure what you mean about "diplomatic bodies" but the military (in the US) has actually on the whole been a bit ahead of the general public on promoting based on merit vice race or gender in my experience....
If you mean the UN - then I concur with your statement....
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I think the case regarding what data said may be the standard norm for the average officer. He was to be promoted to first officer of the Ent-E in Nemesis so he evidently had that coming.
Nemesis $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Ummm... no. Data was not going to be made the first officer of the Enterprise. Picard said he would be busy breaking in his new first officer while Riker was settling in on the Titan, but he wasn't talking about Data. There was a cut scene where we actually saw the new first officer, one Commander Madden, I believe.
The confusing part is where Picard says of his new XO, something along the lines "You've all met him... he's a tyrant..." He seems to be referring to someone present at the gathering... but I don't think he is. He's talking about the unseen Commander Madden.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Nemesis $$$$
quote: The confusing part is where Picard says of his new XO, something along the lines "You've all met him... he's a tyrant..."
He was talking about Data. Madden got the job because Data was dead.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... Ok. I guess I never picked up on that. I humbly concede the point.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I'm pretty sure that according to one of the canon Voyager books (can't remember the name), Janeway commanded the Oberth-class USS Bonestell, which was destroyed at Wolf 359. (Obviously Janeway wasnt on it at the time...) This would mean that she was a Captain at least 5 years before Voyager started. As she graduated from the academy c. 2356, she must have been promoted from Ensign all the way to Captain in 10 years. That's pretty impressive really, especially as she was originally a science officer, and so wouldn't have been trained very much in command at the academy.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One of the Voyager episodes contradicts that. It specifically names Voyager as her first command.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think it was 'Pathways' or something that states that, which isnt canon.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
after the whole 'this is canon, this isn't' discussions about Pathways was completed, i though a consensus was reached that she hadn't made the rank of captain until Voyager, but had been commanding officer of the Bonestell at the rank of commander, since it was such a small ship. and that there was a strong possibility that she had perhaps commanded a second Bonestell named in honor ow Wolf 359.. i don't believe Jeri specifically said the Wolf 359 ship, or the fact that it was Oberth class.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Sorry, must have missed that.
Even so, Ensign to Vice Admiral in 22 years has to be some kind of record...
I think what the quick promotions of people like Janeway and Riker and the slow promotions of most other people show is that Starfleet's promotion system is far more whimsical than modern military systems. For instance, I believe that the modern military requires a certain number of years in each post, and its possible for most people to get reasonably high without an awful lot of effort if they stay long enough, but Starfleet seems to promote on some other grounds than experience (like how many Admirals you know), and high-flyers can get promoted unbelievably fast, while not-so-high-flyers (like alt-Picard when he is still a Lt) can stay at low ranks for much longer.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think the US military also has a policy whereby, if you're passed over for a promotion so many times, you are honorably discharged. Starfleet presumably would allow anyone who is qualified to continue serving to do so as long as they like whether they are promotable or not.
Alt. Picard's perpetual rank of Lt. JG seems perfectly fitting for such a system. He's duties would never require him to have a higher rank.
I don't think that Starfleet's promotion policies are so much whimsical as they are more ambition based. Officer hotshots like Riker naturally get noticed and promoted because they want to... and because they're working for a command position. People who are more laid back and don't seek additional opportunities or responsibilities don't get them, like Alt. Picard. And that's fine... they just continue doing grunt work until they die of old age or have the misfotune of accompanying senior staff on an away mission.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Speaking of fast promotions didnt Picard make commander in like 6 years from ensign? I suppose that is the same as Riker, and I can see where Riker was ambitious and offered many commands, but despite how brash Picard may have been prior to the Enterprise-D, he sure was a weenie once he got command of the flagship. Look at how ambitious Worf is, and granted his incidents with the Klingon empire may have set him back slightly (in the eyes of Picard/Starfleet) it still took him 10 years just to get to Lt. Cmdr. Even Geordi beat him to that rank by like 5 years and I dont think we really ever saw Geordi as being an overly brash or ambitious officer. As for Janeways Admiral in 22 years, I think Captain Kirk made it in less than 20 years.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
We actually don't know that Picard was ever a commander in rank.... We know he was a first officer, since Riker said, "Having been a first officer yourself, you know that..." something in reference to protecting the captain. And we know that he was given command of the Stargazer. But I think we also know that he was only a Lt. when he took command of the Stargazer after her captain was killed. So it's very possible he was given command of the Stargazer as a Lt. Commander.
We also know that Picard commanded a ship between his command of the stargazer and his command of the Enterprise D, per his conversation with Ishara Yar, though we've never gotten any other info about this command. I'm assuming that this was his first command at the rank of captain.
Feel free to start tearing my assumptions apart at your leisure Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Actually, that line about Picard having been a an XO makes no sense given what else we know: As best as I have ever been able to make out, he was a Lt. on the Stargazer when everyone else senior to him was killed, and he took command, for which he was given the captaincy (in position if not in rank). Now, this seems to have been somewhat unusual, given his rank and age; yet if he had been the actual XO then it wouldn't have been anywhere near so unusual and therefore not worth commenting on.
Unless you really want to bring up Lt. Piersall of the Prometheus. 8)
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Didnt Q say that Picard was a Lieutenant Commander when the Stargazer's captain died?
By the way, who is to say that immediately before serving on the Stargazer, Lieutenant Picard wasn't first officer to Lieutenant Commander Somethingorother of the U.S.S. Whatever, a ship with a crew of 40 normally captained by a LCDR with a LT for his XO. OK?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Certainly could have been.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Sorry, must have missed that.
Even so, Ensign to Vice Admiral in 22 years has to be some kind of record...
Sure is; usually takes that long to reach Commander or equivilent. Although it may take slightly less in the Army, due to physical requirements.
Of course, that's for people who aren't in the main cast... Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Sure is; usually takes that long to reach Commander or equivilent. Although it may take slightly less in the Army, due to physical requirements.
Of course, that's for people who aren't in the main cast...
Unless you happen to be on the senior staff of the Enterprise D/E, in which case you sacrifice your entire career in order to stay on that ship for as long as possible (or until they stop making TNG films anyway) Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
holds true for most enterprises...
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
At least the Enterprise (A) crew got promoted - Spock, Sulu and Scott were captains at the end, and Kirk would have been an admiral if he hadn't gotten himself demoted. As of Nemesis, Data has been a Lt Cmdr for 15 years, and Geordi for almost the same amount of time. Not to mention Worf, who seems to appear magically whenever the cameras start rolling...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Worf's promotions at least made a bit of sense. JG until Yar died. Promoted to full Lt. when he was made security chief. Stayed Lt. all through TNG. Then promoted to Lt. Commander after a reasonable stint and top notch service as Lt.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Word wasn't promoted to full lieutenant when he was made security chief. He was made acting Security chief in "Skin of Evil", but remained in red, and at lt j.g. He got a gold uniform in season 2, but stayed at the junior grade level. He only got promoted to full lieutenant just before the start of season 3.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Word up, man. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
No, no, no... Its "Worf" and "Werd up, man". Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
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