Rear Admiral Bennett with 4 pips in DS9 Dr. Bashir, I Presume?
Data's Lt. JG pips in TNG All Good Things...
Lt. Cmdr. Finney's commander braid in TOS Court Martial
Lt. Cmdr. Giotto's commander braid in TOS Devil in the Dark.
Edward Janeway's uniform in VOY Coda
Kathryn Janeway's three pips in ST Nemesis
Geordi La Forge wearing the uniform from the alternate timeline in TNG Yesterday's Enterprise
Jean-Luc Picard's "cadet uniform" in ST Nemesis.
Commodore Mendez' uniform in TOS The Menagerie
Ann Mulhall's red uniform
O'Brien
Janice Rand's uniform in ST3 and rank pin in VOY Flashback.
Saavik's uniform in ST3
Lt. Cmdr. Spock's commander braid in TOS Court Martial
Valeris's uniform in ST6
Colonel West's Vice Admiral rank insignia in ST6
Fleet Admirals Shanthi, Brackett, and Nechayev with Vice Admiral rank insignia
Various officers with the Enterprise insignia in TOS Court Martial
Do you remember any other uniform errors?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I don't see a problem with Janeway's 3-pipped bar in Nemesis. We only know she's an admiral. Starfleet actually could have made her a vice admiral in only two years or so. We have no idea what happened during that time until another movie comes along. I will only accept the Nemesis appearance as wrong when I hear what Janeway's actual rank is and it corresponds to what she's wearing.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I agree with Dat about Janeway, and I'd also like to point out that Picard's Academy uniform wasn't necessarily an error, per se, either. I think it's been established that the jumpsuit (which Robert Fletcher designed as an enlisted uniform for TWOK) is also on occaision worn by cadets.
I still don't agree with your interpretation of Rand's rank, since she was credited as "Commander Rand" in TVH, but I suppose however one looks at there's been a foul-up. This of course could be explained by her having been demoted at some point, though. I had a pet theory that explained the whole thing but I can't remember all the details at the moment. I'll look it up and see what you think.
What was wrong w/Saavik's uniform in TSFS?
To add to the list, there's the last scene from TMP where Spock and McCoy's switch field jackets between shots. That can definitely be labeled an error!
-MMoM Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Saavik in ST3 was wearing command white while in ST2, she wore "command trainee" red and that in only a few days was allowed the switch in color.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
What's this "only a few days" bit? They never said exactly how long the gap between the end of TWOK and the beginning of TSFS was. Obviously, it's probably no more than a month, but I wouldn't narrow it down anymore than that. Remember, they had time to pick up the Reliant's crew from Ceti Alpha V, reassign most of the trainee crew, (and in order to have accomplished this, they must have either stopped at a colony or rendezvoused with several ships or some-such, because they sure didn't ALL transfer to the Grissom) and do all of this while repairing heavy battle damage.
Since Saavik had already attained Lt. JG rank, she had obviously graduated the Academy and must have been completing a Command College course or something to that effect. The Kobayashi Maru test was probably the culmination of that training, and when she was given active duty aboard another vessel she was no longer considered a trainee.
-MMoM
P.S. Thought of another TMP snafu: The officer that Uhura calls "Ensign" on the bridge after Kirk goes to find Decker is wearing a Lt JG's stripe.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Wasn't Tuvok's rank insignia all goofy during the early part of VOY?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Yup. He was "Lieutenant" in the credits, but wore Lt. Cmdr. pips for much (all?) of the first season before switching back to Lieutenant's pips for the next few years. I can't recall if he was referred to as having any particular rank in dialogue during that period.
Paris also had full lieutenant's pips in the last 5 minutes of Caretaker which were replaced by Lt. (j.g.) pips soon afterwards (Parallax, maybe?).
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Tuvok was originally a Lt Cmdr, and but he got demoted by Janeway for insubordination in "Prime Factors (ep#10), and then later re-promoted to Lt Cmdr again later on in the series (prior to the mid-5th season).
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I don't recall Tuvok ever getting a demotion at all. I do vaguely remember Tuvok being referred to as Lieutenant while wearing the Lt. Cmdr. pips early in the series.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I don't see a problem with Janeway's 3-pipped bar in Nemesis.
Three promotions within 22 months? I don't buy that. And yes, I believe that a one-pip rank is in use.
quote:I still don't agree with your interpretation of Rand's rank, since she was credited as "Commander Rand" in TVH
I think it makes more sense that way. CPO in TMP, maybe a SCPO or MCPO during TVH (ignoring the credits, which are sometimes wrong, e.g. Uhuru), and then she attended SF Academy and made Lt. JG by the time of TUC.
quote:I think it's been established that the jumpsuit (which Robert Fletcher designed as an enlisted uniform for TWOK) is also on occaision worn by cadets.
The jumpsuit with a red collar is worn by enlisted trainees.
quote:What was wrong w/Saavik's uniform in TSFS?
They forgot to add a grey slash on the shoulder strap. She had one on her sleeve band.
quote:Thought of another TMP snafu: The officer that Uhura calls "Ensign" on the bridge after Kirk goes to find Decker is wearing a Lt JG's stripe.
There's a memo in The Making of TMP which nailed down the sleeve stripes. One broken stripe is for Ensigns. They totally forgot about Lt. JG. That explains why Chekov was promoted from Ensign two full Lt., while Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, and Sulu only got a one-step promotion.
Maybe I should mention Chakotay too? He had Lt. Cmdr. pips but everyone referred to him as Commander.
[ February 06, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Janeway's three pip rank is unlikely, but nothing really contradicts it. Perhaps Paris appointed her to a specific position within Starfleet as a reward, and that position requires a Vice Admiral, so they made her one. Perhaps she was promoted on a "catch-up" system to account for the 7 years she was prevented from being promoted while she was in the Delta Quadrant. These are unlikely, yes, but without any evidence to suggest she isn't a Vice Admiral, you can't say it isn't just because it doesn't feel right.
Lieutenant Commanders are usually called "Commander", because its shorter. Just like Paris and Torres aren't referred to as "Lieutenant Junior Grade".
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Lieutenant Commanders are usually called "Commander", because its shorter.
I know but other Lt. Cmdrs. like Data or Geordi were at least sometimes referred to as "Lt. Cmdr.". Chakotay was always referred to as "Commander".
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It was never mentioned that Tuvok was given a demotion, though I suppose it's possible. The fact is, he was always referred to as Lt. even though he wore Lt. Commanders pips. This has been acknowledged in at least two sources I can think of as a mistake.
Chakotay's rank has always confused me. He wears Lt. Commanders provisional rank insignia. He replaced a Lt. Commander (Cabot). But he was never referred to as Lt. Commander. I still think he is... but I guess we'll never know.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I suspect that at the beginning, the producers knew he was a Lieutenant Commander, and so gave him that rank insignia. After all, Voyager's original XO was a Lt Cmdr, so it would make sense for his replacement to be one too. However, after a while, when the nice alliteration of "Commander Chakotay" had been said many times, they decided it would confuse people watching to call him "Lieutenant Commander Chakotay".
Another possibility, perhaps, is that XOs are always called "Commander", regardless of whether they are Lt Cmdrs or Cmdrs, a bit like the CO is always called "Captain". However, there is probably somewhere where an XO is called something else to disprove this. I can't remember how Lt Cmdr Cavit was addressed or introduced in Caretaker.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
What was wrong with Janeway Sr.'s uniform, apart from having a late-model commbadge?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: What was wrong with Janeway Sr.'s uniform, apart from having a late-model commbadge?
IIRC the episode established that he died in the 2350s, but his rank insignia was introduced in 2365, his sleeve bands in 2369, and his communicator in 2371.
BTW: Does anyone have screenshots from Giotto, Finney, and Mendez' dress uniform?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
The CO of my ship is a CDR but called captain. DS9 stated it perfectly, despite rank, the CO of a ship is always called captain.
I never really paid attention to admiral ranks since I don't think they were ever really set in stone.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: then she attended SF Academy
I don't think this is a necessary step. Rand could have recieved a field commission, for instance.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vogon Poet: [qb]Does anyone have screenshots from Giotto, Finney, and Mendez' dress uniform?
Finney never wore a dress uniform, being presumed dead until the end of "Court Martial."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Tuvok's rank change/correction occured about 2/3rds of the way though season 1, IIRC.
Actually, there's something else about that that's bene bugging me. I think we can assume that the Lt Commander pips were a mistake. But, in addition to that, weren't they also backwards (ie, the black pip was closest to the front, not the back)?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: There's a memo in The Making of TMP which nailed down the sleeve stripes. One broken stripe is for Ensigns. They totally forgot about Lt. JG. That explains why Chekov was promoted from Ensign two full Lt., while Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, and Sulu only got a one-step promotion.
Nevertheless, this is one instance in which (at least IMO) the behind-the-scenes information cannot be reconciled with what was seen onscreen. We know Lt. JG was a rank in the TOS period a few years before TMP (witness Tollerman in "The Naked Time") and we know it was also one a few years after the film in TWOK. So, the suggestion that for a brief period during the 2270s the rank didn't exist is simply not credible to me. The omission was clearly a mere oversight by the costume department. Therefore, to my thinking, it is an "error."
-MMoM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Tuvok's rank change/correction occured about 2/3rds of the way though season 1, IIRC.
Actually, there's something else about that that's bene bugging me. I think we can assume that the Lt Commander pips were a mistake. But, in addition to that, weren't they also backwards (ie, the black pip was closest to the front, not the back)?
Lieutenant Commander, Junior Grade? Master Chief Petty Lieutenant Second Class?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
As for Chakotay being a Lt. Cmdr. or full Commander, he was addressed as a "Commander", much the same as Data and Worf and LaForge were addressed as "Commander" quite often, so it can go either way. However, Janeway referred to him as Commander Chakotay while he was little more than a Maqui fugitive, so possibly that was his rank when he resigned as the case may be.
Well, in the above mentioned episode where I stated Tuvok got demoted "Prime Factors" he was dressed down by the Captain and given a reprimand and whatnot, and it would seem reasonable that with the given information and no more without rewatching it that he may have been demoted either on or off screen, since we did see him as a Lt Cmdr in the pilot, and then again saw him be promoted to that position in "Revulsion", then again, I recently rewatched "The 37's" where he was again Lt Cmdr (by pips) but he called himself "Lt. Tuvok" in dialog, so maybe there is no damn explaination whatsoever to resolve this, or....maybe I am just a wanton junior member desperate to be heard!
[ February 07, 2003, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Finney never wore a dress uniform, being presumed dead until the end of "Court Martial."
Sorry, I meant Finney's and Giotto's duty uniform and Mendez' dress uniform.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I noticed in "Loud As A Whisper" TNG that there was a female helm/conn (whatever) that didnt have any pips at all on her uinform. I realize it might be due to the budget or something, but would this be significant?
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
I'm quite sure that, while he was wearing Lt. Cmdr. pips, Tuvok was referred to as "Lieutenant" more than once - if not always.
Anyone know the exact episode in which the pips were changed? IIRC it was a few weeks after "Prime Factors". Maybe Janeway waited for the result of an official investigation before demoting Tuvok and Tom?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Maybe Janeway waited for the result of an official investigation before demoting Tuvok and Tom?
IIRC Tom had nothing to do with that incident. I heard the rumour that TPTB demoted Tom after they fixed Tuvok's rank pips, so that Tuvok was still higher ranking than Paris.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
OK... Tuvok was NOT demoted on screen. Whether he was off screen or not is debatable, but he was not demoted on screen. He was dressed down, yes, but when he told Janeway that he expected to lose his commission, Janeway said no. All we saw on screen is Janeway getting on his case and giving her standard disappointment speech.
And he was never referred to as Commander until his official promotion to Lt. Commander later in the series.
The story about Tom's rank being fixed the same time as Tuvok's makes sense, though I've never heard that one before. So, one more question: What rank was B'lanna (SP?)? She told Tom that they were the same rank, so if Tom was always *supposed* to be a Lt. JG, would that make BLT a JG, as well? Anyone have a clear shot of her provisional rank insignia?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'm sure I Looked closely once, it was a JG insignia.
Meanwhile, I always have this bizarre memory of Tuvok wearing Lt. Cdr. insignia - but with the pips the wrong way round, so the black pip was on the left. . . But I've re-watched many of the early eps and never saw that in any of them.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think they did that to Data once. He had the black pip first. I think I read that in the Nitpickers Guide to Star Trek the Next Generation.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Isn't the black pip always to the left on TNG and beyond Lieutenant Commanders?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
bingo
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
If you're looking at it, then yeah. If you're wearing it, then the black pip is on the right.
There are a couple of other uniform errors mentioned in the Nitpicker Guides. There's one episode where during a briefing room scene Beverly Crusher appears pipless, and another where for an entire turbolift ride Picard has three pips instead of four.
This one might not be strictly an error, but it always bugged me. Remember the episode "Ensign Ro"? You know when Picard goes down to the planet to confront the Bajoran terrorist leader, he sees Ro there, finds out that she had a secret mission, they all return to the ship and have a discussion on the bridge? The episode makes it seem like they went straight to the bridge after beaming back up, but Picard wears his grey top with red jacket on the planet, and a standard uniform on the bridge (and, IIRC, Troi changes bunny suits too).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Just remembered all these officers in gold or brown uniforms in WNMHGB with the Science division insignia.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote: POSTED BY SPIKE: Commodore Mendez's uniform in TOS The Menagerie Ann Mulhall's red uniform
Hey, Spike.
What are the exact errors on these uniforms?
Middy Seafort
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Mulhall was an astrobiologist but wore red.
I'm not sure about Mendez, but IIRC he wore the dress uniform of a captain. Commodores have additional gold piping that runs down the outer seam of both sleeves from the neck to the cuff.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Mulhall was an astrobiologist but wore red.
I'm not sure about Mendez, but IIRC he wore the dress uniform of a captain. Commodores have additional gold piping that runs down the outer seam of both sleeves from the neck to the cuff.
Ah, I misremembered and thought Mulhall was another A&A officer like the one in "Space Seed." That's why I thought she wore red.
For Mendez, I thought you meant his duty uniform tunic not the formal one. Thanks for the clarification.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Okay, so far in watching some on the TNG DVD box sets of the first two seasons, I've noticed two curiosities beyond the obvious (Kosinki). One being the Helm officer of the Enterprise who wore no pips, and of another officer who wore only one black pip (rank below ensign?). Anyone have any explainations or suggestions on these peculiarities??
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
According to the Encyclopedia, a black pip denotes a chief warrant officer.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
The single black pip was on a "miss gladstone" in the episode "the child", she was the person in charge of the nursery on the Enterprise-D; i know, i know, nothing but total obscurities going on here...but nonetheless...relative i guess.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Simon Tarses (TNG The Dreamhead) had no pips and referred to himself as "Crewman 1st class".
O'Brien was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" in TNG Family (still wearing 2 pips). He got one black pip in TNG Realm of Fear. In DS9 Hippocratic Oath he was again referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" but IIRC he was wearing his new insignia in that episode. So, either he was a CWO between TNG Family and DS9 Hippocratic oath or a CPO all the time.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
keep in mind also that in a conversation with Keiko in DS9 S1, it was said he had received a promotion between his TNG and DS9 appearances (and that leaving DS9 would mean he would give up his promotion).. also, there are a few different grades of Chief Petty Officer.. namely CPO, Master CPO and Senior CPO, so possibly he was a CPO or MCPO in TNG and then was promoted to MCPO or SCPO for DS9..
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
But his rank insignia didn't change. Maybe he meant a promotion in position not in rank? It's a huge step from transporter officer to chief engineer.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i don't think his rank insignia is applicable. it's been wrong the whole time, its obvious its meaningless. i'd prefer to ignore his insignia from farpoint up until DS9 S4 when he got the chevrons, and theorize a sensible answer, rather than theorizing and answer which is based on costuming mistakes
i mean, by the insignia we have Petty Officer O'Brien -- for years before TNG, according to dialogue, then promoted Ensign O'Brien -- TNG S1, then promoted Lt. JG O'Brien -- TNG midyears (even though he is CPO in dialogue, "Family", then has commission taken away Chief Warrant Officer O'Brien, TNG S6, who is then promoted yet remains Chief Warrant Officer O'Brien, DS9 early years, who then loses his warrant to be once again Chief Petty Officer O'Brien, DS9 later years, according to an actual correct insignia
i'll ignore all the officer ranks, and i think i might ignore the warrant officer ranks too, easier, since we can probably just assume that the hollow pip _doesnt_ mean warrant officer and the encyclopedia is wrong
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Since O'brien's rank is so screwed up anyway, why not just allow that the hollow pip does indicate a CWO and that it was just another error to give that pin to him?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Since O'brien's rank is so screwed up anyway, why not just allow that the hollow pip does indicate a CWO and that it was just another error to give that pin to him?
Or since the Encyclopedia rank chart is so srewed up anyway (no Lt. JG rank for TOS, incorrect movie-era pins, chevrons = Chief of Operations), why not just allow that the hollow pip does indicate a CPO and that it was just another error of the Encyclopedia?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM
(A) They could have changed them, seeing as we never saw enlisted chevron-type insignia before DS9. (B) The Royal Navy doesn't really have Warrant Officers (they have a rank called that, but its actually just the highest enlisted rank). Starfleet seems to have copied the RN in the commodore thing (not calling it a RAdm (lower half)), so maybe they copied the simple officer/enlisted system as well.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs.
And how do you know that the chevron pin wasn't just a replacement for the hollow pip?
quote:Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
But we don't have to assume that. Bob Fletcher for example didn't want any warrant ranks during the movie era.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
O'Brien was called "Lieutenant" in "Where Silence Has Lease" but since that episode was so full of continuity holes as it were im sure we can overlook that error.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
wow!
damndest thing! i just noticed that we were all mistaken and O'Brien had the correct insignia all along, a CPO box with chevrons
see?:
i'm glad we finally settled this.
g'night everybody!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well, I'll be damned...I guess my screen was dirty, afterall, (as well as my ears) with that whole Lieutenant-pipped-O'Brien-thing, thanks for clearing that up for us Captain!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Personally, I've never looked upon the "Lieutenant" thing in "Where Silence has Lease" as a scripting mistake. Personally, I think they were just highlighting how easily someone could be confused by having a CPO with two pips. Since Riker is a bit of a daft monkey, it's perfectly understandable that he'd make such a mistake. Especially since he'd already proved earlier in the episode that he couldn't read.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM
(A) They could have changed them, seeing as we never saw enlisted chevron-type insignia before DS9. (B) The Royal Navy doesn't really have Warrant Officers (they have a rank called that, but its actually just the highest enlisted rank). Starfleet seems to have copied the RN in the commodore thing (not calling it a RAdm (lower half)), so maybe they copied the simple officer/enlisted system as well.
Actually, Commodore was a US Navy rank, but the commodore community objected to not being an 'admiral', even though they had a star, unlike the army, where all flag ranks are galled 'general', so the 2 star Rear Admiral name was altered to "upper half", and one-stars were rename RADM lower-half. Now 'commodore' refers to an O-6 (Captain) in a flag billet, like command of an Amphibious group. TOS used the commodore rank, because it was extant in the real navy at the time, TNG did not, since it no longer existed. I remember seeing a backstage letter about it in an article in the Trek magazine.
Personally, I choose to assume O'Brien was a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) throughout TNG, and was promoted to Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) on DS9. Everything else was just script/costume errors.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Yes, but Star Trek was set in the 2200s. The fact that the US Navy had Commodores in the 1960s is pretty irrelevant. By the time of Kirk, US Navy Commodores will have been gone for a very long time (and I see very little chance of them coming back, seeing as that would involve RAdms (lower half) becoming Commodores, and they wouldn't want that, would they?), whereas RN Commodores will probably be around for a long time.
We know that Commodores exist (at least in TOS), and we know the Officer ranks (Ens, LtJG, Lt, LtCmdr, Cmdr, Cpt). However, we have hardly any evidence concerning enlisted ranks. We have Chief O'Brien, a CPO from the Valiant, and Worf's stepdad who was a CPO. I believe, in the Navy, a Master/Senior CPO is addressed as "Senior Chief" or "Master Chief", at least by those inferior in rank. O'Brien (or anyone else) is never called this. So we don't know they exist. There dont appear to be any Warrant Officers (in the American sense), so I'll assume they don't exist.
Here is a theory:
The Enlisted Ranks are: Crewman 3rd Class Crewman 2nd Class Crewman 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Warrant Officer (This is basically the RN system)
In early TNG: PO has single solid pip, CPO has 1 solid 1 black, WO has 2 solid. PO O'Brien serves on BB in Enc at FP PO O'Brien promoted to CPO CPO O'Brien is Transporter Chief CPO O'Brien is referred to as CPO several times.
Then, Starfleet realises (when a certain Cmdr Riker informs them that all the other officers on his ship are laughing at him for mistaking a CPO for a Lt) that this system is the worst insignia system in the history of the universe. So:
Late TNG/early DS9: PO, CPO and WO have 1 black pip, merely to distinguish them from the other ranks, who have no insignia.
Then in DS9 4(?), when the patch is introduced, they decide to give them proper insignia for once. CM3 - Nothing CM2 - 1 Chevron CM1 - 2 Chevrons PO - 3 Chevrons CPO - 3 Chevrons, 1 dot WO - 3 Chevrons, 2 dots
So, when O'Brien was "promoted" to be at DS9, he was made a WO. He is still addressed as Chief, because he is Chief of Operations. He continued to wear a black pip to start with because that was the correct insignia.
Comments? Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Yes, but Star Trek was set in the 2200s. The fact that the US Navy had Commodores in the 1960s is pretty irrelevant. By the time of Kirk, US Navy Commodores will have been gone for a very long time (and I see very little chance of them coming back, seeing as that would involve RAdms (lower half) becoming Commodores, and they wouldn't want that, would they?), whereas RN Commodores will probably be around for a long time. Comments?
If you are staying in the reality of the show, yeah they're irrelevant, but realistically, the rank was not abolished til after the show, so it was based on what actually existed in the real world. Since by the time TNG was filmed, the rank no longer existed, they dropped it on the show as well. And I prefer not to mix and match from the RN/USN schemes. Pick one and stick with it, IMO. Trek uses the USN scheme for line officers, ignores warrants most of the time, and when it doesn't ignore enlisted, just makes things up out of thin air, so adding some RN designators would simply make things even more confusing.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: So, when O'Brien was "promoted" to be at DS9, he was made a WO. He is still addressed as Chief, because he is Chief of Operations. He continued to wear a black pip to start with because that was the correct insignia.
Comments?
Oh, forgot to mention: In one ep, O'Brien mentions how his fater, who was furious at him for running away to enlist, now proudly brags about his son "Senior Chief Technical Specialist Mile's O'Brien". Now, the rate of Technical Specialist doesn't exist today, but it's a plausible new one to create, and Senior Chief is an E-8, not a W-2+
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: If you are staying in the reality of the show, yeah they're irrelevant, but realistically, the rank was not abolished til after the show, so it was based on what actually existed in the real world. Since by the time TNG was filmed, the rank no longer existed, they dropped it on the show as well. And I prefer not to mix and match from the RN/USN schemes. Pick one and stick with it, IMO. Trek uses the USN scheme for line officers, ignores warrants most of the time, and when it doesn't ignore enlisted, just makes things up out of thin air, so adding some RN designators would simply make things even more confusing.
Yes, I am staying in the reality of the show. Isn't that what we're meant to do?
I am not trying to figure out what Paramount wanted it to be like. I am using the evidence in the show to come up with a plausible description of how the fictional Star Trek world works.
Regarding the Senior Chief thing, it is perfectly possible that Starfleet's term for Technical Specialists (or any other grade for that matter) who are at my hypothetical WO grade is Senior Chief Technical Specialist (ie they were Technical Specialist at PO, Chief Technical Specialist at CPO, and when they become WOs, they get a "Senior" to show how important they are).
I know its not how the US Navy works, but Starfleet is not the US Navy. Think how much different our naval ranks are to those of 400 years ago. The "Starfleet just must be identical to the US Navy or the universe will collapse" attitude, while it seems to be popular, is neither proven nor realistic.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Yes, I am staying in the reality of the show. Isn't that what we're meant to do?
I am not trying to figure out what Paramount wanted it to be like. I am using the evidence in the show to come up with a plausible description of how the fictional Star Trek world works.
Regarding the Senior Chief thing, it is perfectly possible that Starfleet's term for Technical Specialists (or any other grade for that matter) who are at my hypothetical WO grade is Senior Chief Technical Specialist (ie they were Technical Specialist at PO, Chief Technical Specialist at CPO, and when they become WOs, they get a "Senior" to show how important they are).
I know its not how the US Navy works, but Starfleet is not the US Navy. Think how much different our naval ranks are to those of 400 years ago. The "Starfleet just must be identical to the US Navy or the universe will collapse" attitude, while it seems to be popular, is neither proven nor realistic.
OK, you work out a rationale from within the show, whereas I see where the writers/producers were coming from when they did it. IMO, that's a more viable method of arriving at explanations, but there's nothing saying one approach or the other is the only one allowed. Yes, ranks changed a lot in 400 years, and will again, but Trek is not about what will happen then. It's about using then as a backdrop to tell morality tales about today, and therefore uses familiar elements to ease the viewer's transition, juxtaposed with alien elements to slip the moral past our defenses. SF was created with a US Navy structure in order to be more familiar to the viewer, and tampering with the rank structure then reduces the familiarity of the background, jolting suspension of disbelief. The universe wouldn't end if it changed, but it would interfere with telling the story. Therefore, I prefer not to mix systems, because that seems to be the most realistic attitude to me. Realistic in the sense of not rocking the boat over background. Save that for important plot points, like a crewman mutinying contrary to his apparent personality. Change too many details, and plot points get lost. We won't know when somebody's out-of-character, because we'll be used to reality shifting all the time. A show needs a solid foundation for it's backstory and background elements.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
If you want to look at it like that, its fine with me, but you cannot use the supposed aims of the creators to contradict what I have suggested.
Here is the problem:
O'Brien is a CPO in TNG O'Brien gets "promoted" "Promoted" means increased in rank, not position O'Brien is addressed every single time in DS9 as "Chief" Senior Chiefs are addressed as "Senior Chief" Therefore O'Brien is not a Senior Chief But in the US Navy system Senior CPO is above CPO So they can't be using the US Navy system
As far as I can see, my system doesn't contradict established canon, and provides an explanation (whether its plausible or not is up to you to decide) which fits in everything we've seen or heard on Trek, and does all this while being based on a real life system.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
The only hole in your theory is that he was referred to as Chief Petty Officer when he was wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Oh bother
So he was referred to as Senior Chief and Chief, both while wearing the 2 dots thing?
And anyway, for a theory that (I think) solves all the O'Brien anomalies, I think only one left over is pretty good.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
OK - here's an alternative. Inatead of starting from the RN, I will start from the USN. As you can see, it is very similar to the previous one.
Ranks: Crewman 3rd Class Crewman 2nd Class Crewman 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer
(I will explain why this is how it is at the end)
Early TNG: CM3/2/1: None PO: As Ensign CPO: As Lt JG SCPO: As Lt
Late TNG/Early DS9: CM3/2/1: None PO/CPO/SCPO: Black pip
O'Brien is promoted to CPO in TNG. Therefore he was a PO before. Now, the US Navy has 3 grades of PO. However, if this were the case in Starfleet, the 2nd grade could (theoretically) have the hollow pip, but this would leave the lowest grade with nothing. I think that if some ranks have insignia and some dont, it would be infinitely more likely for Starfleet to start giving out insignia when CM changes to PO than when PO3 changes to PO2. Therefore, I have put only one level of PO. Secondly, I have not included MCPO for too reasons. (a) I find it impossible to believe that our fantastic Chief of Operations wasn't promoted to this. (b) From the tone of the brag of Miles' father, it seems that Senior Chief is the highest enlisted grade. ("My son went all the way" kind of thing) Perhaps they abolished MCPO (as well as the PO grades), due to the lesser number of enlisted personnel on automated ships compared with modern ships.
To reiterate: PO O'Brien wears 1 solid pip as helm officer. CPO O'Brien wears 1 solid, 1 hollow pip as transporter chief. (CPO O'Brien is mistaken for Lt JG by Cmdr Riker) CPO O'Brien wears 1 hollow pip as Transporter Chief. SCPO O'Brien wears 1 hollow pip as Chief of Operations. SCPO O'Brien wears 3 Chevrons, 2 dots as Chief of Operations.
This means that the correct form of address for a Senior CPO is "Chief", as SCPO O'Brien is called this every single time.
In summary: USN ranks minus MCPO, with the POs merged into 1 and with the form of address of SCPO changed.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
That doesn't work either. Firstly, O'Brien never wore Lt. JG pips. He appeared with one solid pip, two solid pips, and one hollow pip. Secondly, he was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" when wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots, not just Chief.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: OK - here's an alternative. Inatead of starting from the RN, I will start from the USN. As you can see, it is very similar to the previous one.
Ranks: Crewman 3rd Class Crewman 2nd Class Crewman 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer
Perhaps they abolished MCPO (as well as the PO grades), due to the lesser number of enlisted personnel on automated ships compared with modern ships.
Interesting. Also, the USN has been considering simplifying the structure. Seaman PO (maybe Junior PO and Senior PO, maybe just PO) Chief ENS LT CDR CPT ADM I like the shortened officer list, but feel that POs need three grades, as each level has different amounts of seasoning. The only reason for Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs, though (like multiple ADM grades) was to provide room for promotion. I figure we should replace that with paygrade steps, like GS workers. Trek, of course, assumes that money no longer exists, so I don't know what advancement we could provide them for longer service in lieu of adding ranks. In fact, that's why I figured a race I created for my fiction has several grades of ens/lt/cdr/cpt/adm equivalents - they have Vulcan lifespans, so they go through a lot more ranks during their 50-100 year career. That, and everyone starts as enlisted before becoming officers... But in a human organisation, I'd say our current scheme is too top-heavy and has too many grades, while the new idea being considered may cut too much. I'd run about E-1 to E-6, W-1 to W-3, and O-1 to O-6, maybe even cutting out the warrants entirely.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: That doesn't work either. Firstly, O'Brien never wore Lt. JG pips. He appeared with one solid pip, two solid pips, and one hollow pip. Secondly, he was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" when wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots, not just Chief.
OK then. Change the Early TNG ones to: PO: As Ensign CPO: As Lt SCPO: As Cmdr
The SCPO thing relies on Starfleet's reinterpretation of it. They must just consider it a "Senior" CPO, rather than a "Senior Chief". This semantic difference explains why he is addressed as Chief, not Senior Chief, and hence why he may be called a CPO, because he is one. Just like Fleet Admirals are a type of Admiral, and so are "Admirals" and may be called that, even though they rank higher than plain Admirals.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
But the hollow pip was already in use during early TNG.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
So he got promoted from Petty Officer 2nd Class to Chief Petty Officer. (Perhaps he had LtJG pips when we didnt see him.)
Then make the DS9 ones: 1 Chevron: PO3 2 Chevrons: PO2 3 Chevrons: PO1 1 dot: CPO 2 dots: SCPO
CMs can have no insignia again.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
BTW: Why are you so eager to use the solid pips when they were clearly an error?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Because I don't like errors, so I try to make them into non-errors
If something is clearly a mistake, and there is no way whatsoever to explain it, fine, I can accept that as an error, but if I can I will come up with a reason.
I think that this system is plausible. Whether you think it is or not is up to you, but it works for me. As to why SF would use the same insignia for Officers and Enlisted is anyone's guess, but the organisation that can introduce the dresses seen in very early TNG can do anything IMO. And the reason they changed them is clearly illustrated by Riker's mistake Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
what ... for not wearing his boxers on an away mission?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Calling O'Brien "Lieutenant" Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Calling O'Brien "Lieutenant"
and reading 1305-E off the Yamatos hull all while travelling in the "good ship" Lollypop to the Morgana Quadrant wearing a Starfleet dress, no less.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
[*]Various officers with the Enterprise insignia in TOS Court Martial [/list]
Depending on what source you are using for your information on TOS insigna, there is a fandom theory on this. I believe, correct me someone if I am wrong, fan chronologer James Dixon came up that the Enterprise insigna really was the insigna for members of the Space Fleet, or Star Service. While the various other insigna seen throughout the series symbolized a type of rank or job specification. For example, the rectangular Exeter insigna symbolized a fleet captain (Ron Tracy). The stylized-I in "Doomsday Machine" symbolized Commodore with a ship command, while the starburst in "Court Martial" and "Menagerie" symbolized Commodore with a base command. The odd planet symbol seen in "Balance of Terror" on the doomed outpost officer symbolized planetary duty or some such.
Speaking of the "Menagerie," Mendez's yeomen or secretary can be cleary seen wearing the Enterprise insigna when Kirk enters the office.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
An even simpler rationalization would be to say that each insignum design is associated with a specific, numbered Fleet, of the kind introduced in DS9. The one used by the Enterprise might have been for the 5th Fleet, regularly based off SB 11. Since the Constitutions are pretty big and useful ships, each Fleet has one - so it's only natural that Kirk would encounter these different insignia when meeting up with other Constitutions.
Hmm. Are there specific patches for the Fleets in the USN? The old RN? The four Soviet Fleets?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I believe the Soviet fleet uniforms had distingishing features, but I have no idea what they were.
Also, its not quite the same but 150-odd years ago, the three squadrons of the RN (red, white, blue) flew different flags on their ships.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: An even simpler rationalization would be to say that each insignum design is associated with a specific, numbered Fleet, of the kind introduced in DS9. The one used by the Enterprise might have been for the 5th Fleet, regularly based off SB 11. Since the Constitutions are pretty big and useful ships, each Fleet has one - so it's only natural that Kirk would encounter these different insignia when meeting up with other Constitutions.
Timo Saloniemi
I like this theory. Sounds very logical. The Enterprise could've been part of the 5th Exploratory Fleet, while the Exeter was part of the 7th Exploratory Fleet.. etc.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:there is a fandom theory on this.
And why are there theories? Because the costume department made an error (probably due to budget restrictions) and the fans tried to find an explanation for that error.
quote:while the starburst in "Court Martial" and "Menagerie" symbolized Commodore with a base command.
But Wesley also wore the starburst, although he commanded the Lexington.
quote:An even simpler rationalization would be to say that each insignum design is associated with a specific, numbered Fleet
IIRC we saw two different insignia on the same vessel.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:IIRC we saw two different insignia on the same vessel.
Now when did this happen? Granted, it would totally ruin the "insignum per Fleet" idea. Unless we consider the guy, gal or BEM with the wrong badge to be an observer, random transferee or even evacuee from another Fleet...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
I think it was in "The Ultimate Computer".
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: An even simpler rationalization would be to say that each insignum design is associated with a specific, numbered Fleet, of the kind introduced in DS9. The one used by the Enterprise might have been for the 5th Fleet, regularly based off SB 11. Since the Constitutions are pretty big and useful ships, each Fleet has one - so it's only natural that Kirk would encounter these different insignia when meeting up with other Constitutions.
Hmm. Are there specific patches for the Fleets in the USN? The old RN? The four Soviet Fleets?
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, every fleet and every ship in the USN (and , IIRC, the RN) have their own patches, crest, and motto.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
I've just seen VOY State of Flux (the episode after VOY Prime Factors): Tuvok: 2 solid pips, 1 hollow pip Paris: 2 solid pips Torres: 2 solid stripes
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