Why did General Krim, Colonel Day, and Li Nalas wear grey uniforms? Isn't that the colour for Engineering staff?
Did Kira get a different rank insignia when she was promoted to Colonel?
Is there any information about Bajoran uniforms in the DS9 Companion or The Making of DS9?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmm.... Good questions all.
I think the grey uni's that Li et al wore were different designs than the engineering ones. The shoulder patches came all the way across the chest, IIRC. One might surmise that this is an "admiralty" level uniform. But then... *Colonel* Day was wearing one too, you say...
Perhaps it's a spec ops uniform. What are the rest of their troops wearing in that episode?
I believe Kira did get a new rank insignia when she was promoted. They made it quite obvious she was *Colonel* Kira now... I would think they would make sure she had a different rank as well as a different uni and a cool new braid in her hair.
I'll have to go back and look through my copy of the Making of DS9, but all i remember off hand is a section on the Bajoran phasers and a sectionon Odo, who was originally going to be a more metallic looking Starfleet officer with a rather funky looking uniform.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I think Kira's "Colonel" insignia was her old "Major" insignia but in silver, not gold. Which is odd, considering its not anything like what Colonel Day's insignia was. Perhaps they did a Starfleet and changed the system...
So, her new insignia is a silver thing with one section on the lower side missing.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Nice links... though your picture of Kira is from "Duet" when she was still a Major. She didn't become a Colonel until the start of the last season.
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I think the grey uni's that Li et al wore were different designs than the engineering ones. The shoulder patches came all the way across the chest, IIRC. One might surmise that this is an "admiralty" level uniform. But then... *Colonel* Day was wearing one too, you say...
Perhaps it's a spec ops uniform. What are the rest of their troops wearing in that episode?
While it may be non-canon the one of the DS9 relaunch novels (Avatar 1, I think) surmises that the grey Bajoran uniforms are issued to spec ops personnel.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:One might surmise that this is an "admiralty" level uniform. But then... *Colonel* Day was wearing one too, you say...
Good guess, I'd say. Uniform variant with shoulder epaulets for Generals and uniform without epaulets for Colonels and Lt. Colonels.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Day wore the normal uniform, not the flag variant. check frank's page: http://frankg.dgne.com/bri/images/episodes/siege/day2.jpg .. you can see Day wearing the standard grays,the same as all the engineers, while General Krim in the background wears the general variant.
the only ones who wore the flag variant were generals and Li Nalas, who received the title 'navark' but didnt have a rank specified (unless navark was his rank, but it was said to be a religious title).. but he wore the same pin as Colonel Day.. perhaps he only received the uniform as part of his title's apponitment, and was also a colonel (a lieutenant colonel so as not to outrank Sisko?)
perhaps the difference between Day's black on one side colonel pin and Kira's silver colonel pin was the distinction between Lt. Colonel and full Colonel? This would mean both Day and Li Nalas were Lt. Col.s and that Kira received a two grade promotion to full Colonel from Major, which might not be entirely unlikely, in the wartime era of DS9..
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Hmmm. I just searched for pictures of Kira, and that one looked like she had a silver thing. Now it looks gold, like it is. I need my eyes tested.
I am still pretty sure the new one is silver though...
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Have we ever seen security uniforms with a normal collar or rank insignia?
Any information in ST The Magazine or Fact Files?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I'd like to know why people think Bajorans HAVE the rank of ensign. The Bajoran military rank system seems to be based on army forces, and not based on naval forces (as Starfleet's system is).
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
The first link I posted has a purely army system. The second one is just confused. It seems to start off Navy and morph into Army, making Captain the equivalent of a Lt Cmdr, which it isn't. Seeing as the ranks we hear are obviously translations of the real Bajoran ones, there doesn't seem to be any reason why the UT would mess up the rank system like that. After all, it would only confuse the poor old (hypothetical) Starfleet Marines, when they find out that Major Kira is actually the equivalent of a Lt Col in their organisation.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I'm sure Starfleet informs its officers and crew about the appropriate translation of Bajoran ranks.
What I'm wondering is, what evidence is there that there ISN'T a Lt. Colonel rank? What canoncial evidence is there for a rank of ensign and lieutenant j.g.? Was it ever spoken, or are certain creating these lists unaware of the appropriate Army, Air Force, Marine/Navy rank translation?
In other words, instead of "Ensign", "Lieutenant JG" and "Lieutenant" as some of these lists speculate, how do we know the actual ranks aren't Third, Second, and First Lieutenant?
(Re-read your first post: argh, I can't believe this system was suggested by the Encyclopedia. Idiots I say).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:how do we know the actual ranks aren't Third, Second, and First Lieutenant?
Why not just Second Lt., First Lt., and Captain?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
yeah the main obstacle is the Encyclopedia version.. if you peruse FrankG's page youll see that, canonically, the ranks weve seen have been General, Colonel (with two separate pins), Major, and two grades of the low rank where they werent called any specific rank.. its very easy to suppose that those were the two lieutenant grades, an unseen captain grade, major, a couple of colonels and general..
but for the sake of argument, the rank now known as second lieutenant was originally called ensign in the revolutionary war, and lt col. was added late also, meaning that it went directly from major to colonel.. our rank system wasnt finalized until WWI
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Why not just Second Lt., First Lt., and Captain?
Spike,
The way the rank system is worked up, you've have a rank slot unaccounted for. Example:
I would list rank as: 3rd lt, 2nd lt, 1st lt, captain, major, colonel.
Now, I wouldn't mind adding a "Lt. Colonel" rank, and I think it makes sense, but there appears to be opposition to that.
So we have to account somehow for that officer grade, and since "captain" already exists, we can't go 2nd lieutenant, 1st lieutenant, captain, captain, can we?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
the encyclopedia also lists an extra rank pin that doesnt make sense, the variant of the pin that was before it only with the longer bar sticking out of it.. their captain pin was unseen on the show, but having two variants of the pin under don't make sense, especially since one of them was never seen onscreen..
Wow.. according to your enlisted insignia there are still Boatswain Mates and Quartermaters. And the crewman recuit gets a single stripe. I think the Navy use to have one stripe for E-1, but ditched it.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well, since there was no insignia for recruit i decided to use the coast guard one stripe..
on the other stuff, what else looks odd to you?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Just noticed that Rom's uniform had the colours switched:
Maybe a distinction between officers and enlisted men?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
IIRC, Rom's uniform was more of a white & aqua colour.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
so, for the Bajoran services we have these color schemes:
dark red/coral was worn by Kira for her job as station liaison (& commander), and by the Bajoran ground soldiers in 'Shakaar'
dark gray/gray = engineers, military general & the station occupation force in the 'Homecoming' 3parter [not canon, but Ro wears gray as security chief in the Avatar books]
brown/beige = security deputies, seen only on non-commissioned personnel, never for officers
light gray/aqua = maintenance/engineering, seen only for non commissioned personnel, never for an officer
blue & orange (?) = medical , seen only on Bashir's Bajoran assistants
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
whoops.. just checked, seems the 'Shakaar' force was mixed red and gray.. possibly just the command officers ( Colonel Lenaris and his number one) wearing the red? .. not a good idea as military color schemes go..
[ March 04, 2003, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Of course, it could all refer to some sort of a religious caste system rather than to any identifiable military identification system. People in red are The Exalted Upper Caste That Can Decide On Its Own Beliefs Each Morning, those in grey follow the Pure Agnostic path, the beiges are the Fatalist Followers, and the whitish is reserved for Those Who Don't Matter.
These could also be regional identifiers: each continent has a traditional cloth manufacturing method that results in a certain color, and the wearers honor the colors of their homelands.
Or then Bajorans are largely colorblind and don't differentiate between red, grey and beige infantry uniforms, whose color differences are only due to minor periodic adjustments to the fiber manufacturing process.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, we can rule out the caste idea as the Bajorans did away with their d'jarra's during the Occupation.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or so they say. If even the supposedly outgoing and free-thinking people who agree to live on the Fed-controlled Cardassian space station were so quick to fall back on the old patterns, one wonders how much change really took place down on the planet.
We basically only saw the still-going-strong religious caste down there, plus a few ministers, one general, a bunch of orphans, and one ex-collabo, all of them on separate occasions. So it's hard to tell how caste-to-caste interaction really would take place on New And Improved Bajor. Perhaps a garment still is a political statement?
(And what sort of a statement is Kira making when she switches to high heels? Perhaps the concept of "uniform" just plain isn't uniform in the Bajoran Militia.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
On a separate note, I think I think of CaptainMike's rank charts as the definite version now... I think.
Just one question: why are the TMP-era flag cuff markings different from the TOS-era ones? ENT (Adm. Forrest) seems to support the TOS scheme where the narrow stripes go both above and below the thick/triple stripe for Vice Admiral, so I'd suggest that this also be true of the TMP scheme.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Just out of curiosity, who wears the "4 pips with a line under them" Fleet Captain insignia?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Sloan wore that one. He was a "Deputy Director" with Internal Affairs or something. Oh, and he was working for Section 31, but obviously they don't wear insignia.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Isn't it possible that the line underneath means that the insignia is for a non-line position (someone in a Starfleet agency or something) rather than the regular insignia that Starfleet officers wear? So, the rank of "Deputy Director" in that agency is the equivalent grade of a captain, so he gets 4 pips, but with a line to indicate he isn't a regular officer (and couldn't commandeer a ship or anything). So an "Assistant Director" might get 3 pips with a line, etc.
(It would be rather ironic of Starfleet to give a line to non-line officers but i'll ignore that )
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
About Kira's Season 7 pin: It was just a silver Major pin, right? Now that reminds me of US Army rank insignia. Lt. Colonels wear silver oak leaves while Majors wear gold oak leaves. So, maybe Kira was just a Lt. Colonel in Season 7? That would also explain her Starfleet Commander rank.
It appears that there are two different uniforms for medical officers: Past Prologue Babel
And finally, to create more confusion, Colonel Lenaris's rank pin looked like the Major pin but with a thick gold rim.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The bajorans seem to use "Colonel" and "General" the way Starfleet uses "Commander" and "Captain". That would account for Kira's Commander status in Starfleet. The Bajoran medical uniform diffrence could indicate one as a nurse and the other as a doctor, or mabye the colored shoulders represents a specialization department or intern.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Says who?
I don't buy it ... for one thing, General is a flag rank -- there's no way its in use as much as a Starfleet captains rank is. Why did Kira go from being a Bajoran Colonel to a Starfleet Commander? Well who said the transfer was exact? She could've gone to a lower rank because of Sisko's captain rank, to placate the Cardie rebels, or because of who knows why.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Or she could have been a Lieutenant Colonel. Which is equivilent to a Commander. Everyone just calls her Colonel cos it's shorter. See; problem solved Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Like in SF when everyone calls Lt. Commanders just Commander. Works for me. Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
could be some facet of Starfleet that requires a certain amount of training or service to hold the rank of captain
for example, we know that Troi couldnt become a full commander unless she completed some Kobayashi Maru style scenarios and bridge command tests, etc..
but what if an officer serving in an allied service held the rank equivalent to commander, but lacked any of the training or experience Starfleet required of its commanders, and was coming into the Fleet? could be they would be awarded the Lt Cmdr rank until they completed the requirements to become an actual Starfleet Cmdr..
I can see this easily happening with the captain grade, for weve seen that Starfleet captains have a broad range of discretionary powers, theyd probably not want to give the rank away unless certain training levels and expectations were met.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Interesting.
Question: Will Kira ever get promoted? If not, will we get some explanation why not? Its starting to seem like a glaring oversight...
Answer from Ron D. Moore: Promoting Kira would make her "Colonel Kira" ( and Lt. Col. Kira would still be shortened to "Col. Kira" in dialog just as Lt. Cmdr. is shortened to Commander) and none of us think this would sound very good. It's really that simple and no other reason.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
FWIW, in the DS9 relaunch, when Bajor joins the UFP Kira gets promoted to captain.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Are you implying that all Bajoran officers become Starfleet officers?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Maybe he is implying that she remained in Starfleet or permanantly transferred to Starfleet. I think to a certain degree they become integrated into Starfleet once a race joins the Federation, perhaps on a voluntary scale, but I also think that they would keep their own identity as well. Vulcan is part of Starfleet/the Federation and that didnt stop them from having their own defense forces ("Unification, p2" & "Gambit p2") otherwise they would have simply just had their own supply of Starfleet vessels at thier disposal for those scenarios. Perhaps in the same idea Bajor keeps its own military, but also has the option for some of its soldiers to transfer into Starfleet for those interested in serving on a starship, etc.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, the DS9 relaunch also indicates that Ro (who is the new security chief) either rejoins SF or leaves the station. So, it seems that the entire Bajoran Militia will be absorbed into SF.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
It was mentioned in "Rapture" as well by AMD Whatley when he mentioned details that would have to be handled, including "the absorption of the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet."
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It would seem that this is the case with any race that joins the Federation. My guess would be that a planet's military force is merged with the Federation's when they become members since the Federation Starfleet is tasked with protecting its civilian population. Certainly there would be planetside Starfleet installations on these member worlds, not that ground based personell would do much good when dealing with orbital assaults.
In addition, member planets probably have their own police and security forces that are seperate from Starfleet. But I would think that any kind of spaceborne fleet would definitely be absorbed into the Federation Starfleet.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Well, the DS9 relaunch also indicates that Ro (who is the new security chief) either rejoins SF or leaves the station. So, it seems that the entire Bajoran Militia will be absorbed into SF.
..or at least the bulk of it that is involved with station operations. probably the Bajorans in the space service, or with the right qualifications will become Starfleet, but as I was saying before, it seems like it would take a while to indoctrinate them to the specifically SF service.. more than likely, it will take a few years of exchange programs, training, etc..
have we ever seen the case of a member world that had members in SF but still maintained its own navy/army units or any military force? i know that Vulcan still has an intelligence agency, as per "Gambit". and Ensign Mendon was given honorary rank as part of an exchange program that absobed him from the Benzite space fleet, where he was trained in a manner contrary to SF style.
possibly its the difference between the national guard and the rest of the military. the Bajoran militia will continue as a Bajor-based entity, but the Bajoran officers with offworld experience or the proper training and certification will become part of Starflet. This alse leaves the possibility that other Federation member worlds still maintain their own planetary guard as an independant entity from Starfleet, albeit all in a minor capacity.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Also the Mars Defence Perimeter may not have necessarily been part of Starfleet.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Benzar need not be a Federation member as of "A Matter of Honor" though.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
They could simply be allies to the Federation like the Klingons are...but not necessarily part of the collective.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Later on, during the Dominion War, I think, we hear that Benzar is a member, or such is implied. I'm just saying that, taking into account the officer exchange program, their membership could be very recent, between that episode and DS9.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
That said, whatshisface who looked like whatshisface wore a Starfleet uniform.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, they came from the same geo-structure...nothing to do with their treaty status.
Im thinking they were affilitated with the Federation at the point we saw in early TNG where they were allowed to serve in Starfleet, yet still had their own space service. Perhaps by the time of DS9 (6-10 years later) they eventually joined the Federation, as we saw more of them showing up in DS9 during the conflicts with the Klingons and the Dominion.
The Federation seemed to go out (and even go as far as scraping the bottum of the barrel) to beef up their membership body a bit as we saw in the instance of the Evora in Insurrection.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Though we know (in this case explicitly) that one need not be a Federation citizen to be in Starfleet. In the real world, I think something like three percent of the U.S. military is made up of non-citizens. Maybe even non-residents, I'm not sure.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, in regards to the lookalike Benzite with the micro-organism spotting issues: I always thought it was kind of weird that he wore a Starfleet uniform, but Riker didn't have to wear a Klingon one.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
According to the Encyclopedia, Benzar did join the Federation. I don't know if this was explicitly stated on screen, but it's good enough for my list.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Perhaps PermaAsthmaInhaler dude asked to wear a SF uniform, out of respect, whereas Will couldn't stand the thought of not wearing the oh-so-sexy skintight jumpsuit for an entire episode. People wouldn't have been able to see his man-tits, and that would have been a crying shame.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or then the Benzites generally go around naked, and the Starfleet folks got sick and tired of this guy's anatomy and begged him to wear a uniform, any uniform.
That would be so Benzite a thing to do, now wouldn't it? "Hi, I'm Hurdon from Benzar. I have a superior physique. See? I'm sure you will enjoy watching me all the day. Please feel free to compliment."
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hmm, yes, a whole new meaning is now given to the phrase "blue balls"....
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Maybe he was from a Starfleet vessel with a Benzite crew?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
But the Bentizes weren't Starfleet/Federation members at that time so it wouldnt have been likely that they would be given their own vessel. That would be like Starfleet giving the Klingons a Federation ship of their own. Maybe there is just no explaination for it, unless of course they were conducting some of the first steps of membership which included integrating a few Benzites into the fleet as conscripts or something.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:But the Bentizes weren't Starfleet/Federation members at that time
Where did they say that?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I never got the impression that Benzites weren't members of the Federation. Also, I do believe that many planets maintain their own independent space fleets, so I don't think that's evidence enough.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:But the Bentizes weren't Starfleet/Federation members at that time
Where did they say that?
Actually in my ooold like Omnipedia v1.5, it says the Benzites were a recent member of the Federation as of "A Matter of Honor" (2365). Considering what I said earlier:
Maybe there is just no explaination for it, unless of course they were conducting some of the first steps of membership which included integrating a few Benzites into the fleet....
If going by the Omnipedia that suggests that the Benzites just joined the Federation they may have a slightly more complicated process in integrating fleets and so forth.
Seeing that Mordock in "Coming of Age" (2364) was evidently the first Benzite to go to the Academy, it is possible that Mendon in the later episode, who was participating under the auspices of the Cultural Exchange Program, he was given the honorary/comparable rank of ensign and was there in some initial attempts of integrating the Benzite Fleet into Starfleet.
This, all in all, suggests that there is a good possibility that they joined in c.2365 and this was just a step in the process. Based on given information, this seems to be a concise and logical solution.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Seeing that Mordock in "Coming of Age" (2364) was evidently the first Benzite to go to the Academy
Yeah, but this was contradicted by "DS9 Apocalypse Rising".
So, I think that they were Federation members and that they normally serve on Starfleet ships, crewed entirely by Benzites. Would make sense, considering that they need a different atmosphere than other Federation members. Maybe Mordock was curious and the Exchange Program gave him the opportunity to serve on another Starfleet ship.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The exchange program was pretty obviously between different governments, though.
And while it's been a long time since I've seen it, I don't recall anything suggesting the Benzite in DS9 had been in Starfleet Academy before that other guy. I don't recall his rank, but there is, I think, plenty of time for someone to spend four years in the Academy between the two episodes. Or he could have been transferred into Starfleet when Benzar joined the UFP.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I don't recall anything suggesting the Benzite in DS9 had been in Starfleet Academy before that other guy.
KLINGON Then I turned my attention to the Captain. A Benzenite named Laporin. He put up a valiant struggle. But in the end, I ripped the breathing tubes from his head and...
[...]
O'BRIEN You knew Captain Laporin.
SISKO We went to the Academy together.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, there you are.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Actually the Klingon quite clearly spoke: "Benzenite", which was also noted in closed captioning.
Considering the similiarities in names of other races such as: Talarians, Tallonians, Tarellians, Tellarites, Tellurians and Terellians, among others, I would say that there may be a similar case between Benzenites and Benzites. Besides I wouldn't necessarily call the Benzite breathing apparatus "breathing tubes". Who is to say that there aren't other benzene breathing/name-related species out there...
In fact, in the next episode, "The Ship", we see Ensign Hoya (I think was her name) who was a Benzite and she clearly had neither breathing tubes or the patented portable shirt-mounted crack-snorting ashtray which must mean they overcame that deficiency.
Either way, nothing from "Apocalypse Rising" even implies that that was an "all Benzite" ship or whatever Spike is theorizing.
Also, "Coming of Age" clearly specifies that that Benzite was the first to apply for Starfleet, however, if this is wrong and IF Capt. Laporin was a Benzite, it doesnt mean that he wasn't in under special circumstances, like Nog or even Worf was. You don't need to be a member of the Federation to join Starfleet as we stated many posts back.
So, like Sol says, it was an "exchange program" between two governments...thats practically the definition of the term, which makes absolute sense, anything else would simply be called a "transfer".
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Actually the Klingon quite clearly spoke: "Benzenite"
You know only the top of the line models can talk. It wouldn't surprise me if he meant Benzite but said Benzenite.
quote:In fact, in the next episode, "The Ship", we see Ensign Hoya (I think was her name) who was a Benzite and she clearly had neither breathing tubes or the patented portable shirt-mounted crack-snorting ashtray which must mean they overcame that deficiency.
Maybe females don't need that stuff?
quote:Either way, nothing from "Apocalypse Rising" even implies that that was an "all Benzite" ship or whatever Spike is theorizing.
I suggested, that maybe Mendon was from an all Benzite ship.
quote:You don't need to be a member of the Federation to join Starfleet as we stated many posts back.
True, but if Mordoc wasn't the first Benzite in Starfleet, it would be possible that Mendon attended the Academy.
quote:it was an "exchange program" between two governments...thats practically the definition of the term
Not necessarily. The USN and the USMC had a Pilot Exchange Program during the 1980s IIRC.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
[EDIT] ::::OMITTED RANT:::::: [EDIT]
And yes, we've already established that Mendon was was from a Benzite ship...in the Benzite fleet...Starfleet rules are Starfleet rules, regardless of who is the majority on the ship, he would have been following Starfleet regulations and reported what he saw, or would have understood the chain of command if he was from a Starfleet ship, but he wasn't, hence the miscommuncation between Mendon and Worf throughout the episode because he wasn't aware of Starfleet rules and regulations, something he would have otherwise known had he been "transferred" from another Starfleet vessel, rather than a Benzite Fleet/non-Starfleet vessel (or whatever they call there government fleet) .
[ April 06, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The phrase "You know only top of the line models can talk..." is a racist slur passed between Burke and Samno...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I realize that, as I have yet to see a mute Klingon, and even so, those Klingons at the bloody 'tiger core' were indeed the "top of the line" afterall....
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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