I've seen some gripes at Captain Harriman every now and then, and I was wondering what everyone's opinion of Harriman is?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I think that he (& possibly Larry Styles) are merely shakedown commanders. They handle the ship & crew for the cruise to work out the bugs & then get reassigned to a new ship as a more experienced field commander takes official command.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Well, I say he's pretty bumbling. Remember when he destroyed that Ferrari?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
LOL, UM!
Not only that, but he had absolutley no clue how to handle a situation, to the point where he wasn't even prepared to take risk and initiative -- he needed Kirk to tell him what to do.
I not only can't imagine him being the full Captain of the ship, but I can't even believe that the guy managed to get promoted so far.
However, at the same time, it wouldn't make too much sense to have a shakedown commanding officer different from the normal commanding officer -- especially because most officers present seemed to be part of the normal crew -- I'm thinking mainly of Demora Sulu here.
I prefer to take the "Series ?" route here -- he didn't STAY stupid. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I think that Harriman was a very competant commander. The E-B was obviously his first command, and he didn't quite know how to handle this emergency. He didn't expect anything to happen, especially seeing as where his ship wasn't even fully equipped. All the pausing and thinking he did was probably him trying to figure out what he could do with what little he had. Kirk was there, he figured a little help wouldn't hurt.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I can't see that, though. Why give an inexperienced first-time commander the Enterprise? That's like saying, "well, I know you've only been mayor for a week, but hey! How'd y'like to run the nation! Here!"
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Did Kirk have a command before the Enterprise?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yeah, wasn't the original backstory that he'd been hero at the Battle of Ghioghe & commanded a couple of destroyers at first? The Lydia & the Sutherland, both the names of Hornblower's ships.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I might be wrong, but isn't it a pretty much foregone conclusion that Spock's first (and, well, only) command was the Enterprise? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Harriman was competent and could have handled the situation better if Kirk (likely his idol) was not right fucking there to take over! If your first assignment on your new ship was a rescue mission where you had zero available resources and you have two of the fleet's most experienced captains and Engineer on board(and on your bridge) he would have been remiss not to have asked their help.
That being said, I do think the director should have gone for a "more frustrated" and less "bumbling" performance in this case. Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: Yeah, wasn't the original backstory that he'd been hero at the Battle of Ghioghe & commanded a couple of destroyers at first? The Lydia & the Sutherland, both the names of Hornblower's ships.
Actually, that backstory is from the novel "Enterprise: First Adventure" by Vonda N. McIntyre (though given Roddenberry's blessing before the Pocket Books restrainment). In that backstory, Kirk was in command of the Lydia Sutherland, which was one ship not two seperate vessels.
There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin before the [I]Enterprise[/I, most notably in an issue of the Marvel "Star Trek" comics and the first DC "Star Trek" Annual. This command is also listed in the "Star Trek II: Biographies" by William Rotsler.
IIRC, it was never mentioned on screen what, if any, Kirk's first command or command before "Enterprise" was.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
The whole idea that you can get to the rank of captain before you get your first command is ludicrous, as is Trek's seemingly ironclad rule that every starship commander has captain's rank. Given the time and training it takes to reach that rank, it makes no sense to have him or her commanding the U.S.S. Puddle Jumper on its Earth-Vulcan mail run. I've believed this clear back to STIII; I thought Esteban should have been a Lt. Commander (Commander, max), given Grissom's size and mission.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But consider that Genesis was the most important planet in the galaxy at the time.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
And that we have indeed seen Officers with ranks lower than Captain command Starships if only for brief stints Spock, Scotty, Dax, Data, Riker, Worf; and then there's the Captain of the Prometheus (NCC-71201) who was a Lieutenant Commander.
If I recall correctly wasn't the Enterprise going to be Decker's first command too? Then there is Picard taking command of the Stargazer...
As for Harriman, I agree that allot of his anxiety was due to his childhood idol milling around his bridge giving him funny looks. It might also be worth considering that he was chosen for this shakedown cruise for his "photogenic" nature, looking at how well he handled the press it looked like his last job might have been as a public relations officer. Perhaps he pulled some strings to get assigned to The Enterprise and fulfil some childhood dream. Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: and then there's the Captain of the Prometheus (NCC-71201) who was a Lieutenant Commander.
Lieutenant Junior Grade by his pips.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
The Commanding Officer = Captain thing has always really annoyed me. I assume its due to the Navy's policy of calling a CO "Captain" regardless of actual rank, which must have confused Paramount into thinking that all COs are Captains. I really sympathised with Riker and his continuous refusal to take his own command, as I would definitely prefer to be XO of a behemoth like the Enterprise than CO of some piddly little Oberth or Miranda. DS9 seemed to start getting it right by giving Dax and Worf command of the Defiant at various points, but made themselves look silly with the Prometheus thing. I think it should really have been:
And the flagship should definitely have an Admiral on it. Thats what it means after all, as Admirals "fly their flag" on a ship. Big ships like Aircraft Carriers always have Admirals on, in addition to the CO.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I don't agree. All of the ships you listed wields a devestating amount of firepower (particulary incomparison with most Alpha Quadrant races) and starship commanders have a lot of latitude in how they conduct their missions. A Lt. Commander or Commander might fly off the handle ina standoff situation and start a war during what could have otherwise been just a tense encounter. I could, however see a Lt. Commander in charge of a easy "milk run" assignment inside of Fed space. The Lantree would be a good example of a easy assignment in an older ship with minimal armament. I think that thereis also a lot more to being in charge of a ship with 500+ crewmen than the experience that comes with a commander's pips. Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Obviously your rank isn't the only qualification to command - you have to demonstrate your ability, just like you do now. It wouldn't just be some Starfleet Admiral wondering around HQ, grabbing the first Lt Cmdr he sees and saying "hey, you're a Lt Cmdr, have this new Defiant I just had built. This button fires the phasers, and this one launches some torpedoes. Got it?"
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin."
Does anyone else appreciate the irony in this? Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: A Lt. Commander or Commander might fly off the handle ina standoff situation and start a war during what could have otherwise been just a tense encounter.
Why? Going by modern military standards (the closest real world organisation, we're talking about people with between 12-25+ years of experience who hold those ranks. In order to gain a command it is necessary to pass several, very intensive, courses.
As for Harriman, I prefer to think that Starfleet would have assigned a competant commander to the Enterprise, even for her shakedown. I don't blame him for being nervous, what with three senior Captains on his bridge, being in command of the Enterprise, the crisis, the lack of supplies, etc. I think it is possible it was his first command as captain, but not necessarily his first posting as captain (He could have been assigned to Starfleet Acadamy, SFHQ, Starfleet Tactical, some Admiral's staff, etc.)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: "There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin."
Does anyone else appreciate the irony in this?
At the risk of looking foolish, my answer is "no." Elaborate, please.
It's interesting to point out Harriman's "photogenic" nature -- I think that's exactly what the writers were aiming for, and got screwed up, either in the directing or the acting. I think Alan Ruck is a good enough actor, but he seemed to be drawing a little too much on his Cameron Fry role... ("Let my Cameron go.....")
I agree that there should definitely be some lower-ranked officers in charge of some ships. However, to play devil's advocate, consider that the PURPOSE of the ranking system is not entirely the same in the Trek universe. In real life, ranks are actually pay grades. A promotion means getting a raise. But money doesn't exist in the 24th century, and so the ranks seem to exist solely as a kind of meritocracy. Meaning that it does make some sense for the "Captain == Commanding Officer" equation. However, given the number of ships and so forth, that still might not entirely make sense -- and especially because of the lingering validity of the relative prestige of commanding the Galaxy-class USS Enterprise compared to the Minnow-class USS Rustbucket.
I hate jumping through hoops to rationalize things, but considering the number of times we've had rank pip gaffes on the show -- especially with regular characters -- couldn't we "bump" Piersall up to a Lt. Commander and say he was supposed to have an extra full pip?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I hate jumping through hoops to rationalize things, but considering the number of times we've had rank pip gaffes on the show -- especially with regular characters -- couldn't we "bump" Piersall up to a Lt. Commander and say he was supposed to have an extra full pip?
That would be very easy to do, especially as they gave Data a Lt(J.G.)'s pips in AGT. However, it's been a long time since I saw that episode - how old is Piersall? Does he look like he could be a Lt Cmdr, or is he Ltish?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Identity Crisis:
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: and then there's the Captain of the Prometheus (NCC-71201) who was a Lieutenant Commander.
Lieutenant Junior Grade by his pips.
But the guy seemingly in charge of the Nebula Class Prometheus was never addressed as Captain, was he. I thought he was just the shift leader like Harry Kim on night shift or something.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Possibly - but during all the time that Seyetik was blabbing away, SOMEONE from the normal command crew should've been woken, come to the bridge, and then upstaged Sisko by assuming commmand.
I still think that the Prometheus was SUPPOSED to be a small science ship or something, but they just used the Nebula Model by mistake.
Mark
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: "There are some backstories that place Kirk in command of the Saladin."
Does anyone else appreciate the irony in this?
Saladin was the sultan of Egypt and Syria who opposed the Crusaders. I postulate, MinutiaeMan, that the irony is that a red-blooded farm boy with a Christian surname once commanded a vessel named after a Middle Eastern leader. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nim.
Interesting breakdown, Phoenix. I am inclined to agree with your assessment in regards to a starship being a Captain's Rank command. I never cared for Roddenberry's dictum that only Captains can command a ship.
Perhaps, during TOS those of the Starship Classification, Connies and such, were commanded by Captains while smaller vessels were commanded by Commanders and down the line.
Also, the Enterprise by Naval tradition, as you point out Phoenix, is not a flagship. That term has been misused a lot in all of Trek. I always thought that TNG should've had Picard as an Admiral and Riker as a Captain. Thus, making the Enterprise-D a true flagship. Then again, I thought it would've been more interesting to have Picard in command of an exploration fleet with the Big-E as his flagship, while Riker was responsible for the daily operation of the ship.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: Saladin was the sultan of Egypt and Syria who opposed the Crusaders. I postulate, MinutiaeMan, that the irony is that a red-blooded farm boy with a Christian surname once commanded a vessel named after a Middle Eastern leader. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nim.
Ah, I was looking too deep and missed the one in plain sight! I knew the origins of Saladin.
quote:Also, the Enterprise by Naval tradition, as you point out Phoenix, is not a flagship. That term has been misused a lot in all of Trek. I always thought that TNG should've had Picard as an Admiral and Riker as a Captain. Thus, making the Enterprise-D a true flagship. Then again, I thought it would've been more interesting to have Picard in command of an exploration fleet with the Big-E as his flagship, while Riker was responsible for the daily operation of the ship.
The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
That reminds me. Why do Admirals always choose rubbish ships as their flagships? The only occasion I can think of where an Admiral chooses a decent ship is the DS9 episode where it is implied that the Galaxy Class USS Venture is Admiral Hastur's flagship (although I don't think it is actually stated).
(Perhaps Necheyev couldn't fly her flag on the Enterprise because it already had the Federation flag on it and there's only one flagpole)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I can think of all sorts of reasons. While we know the Galaxy can function as a command and control ship, it's also almost always put right up in the front to get the most use out of it in a battle. It does not make acres of sense to have your Admiral out in front when you have adequate communications.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Recall TOS "The Deadly Years" with Commodore Stocker, the "bumbling officer" who made it beyond the Captains rank without ever even commanding a starship. He really fudged things up when he took command of the Enterprise, to boot.
Perhaps Harriman managed to stay out of the way of the starship command structure and was based on a starbase his entire career up to becoming the captain of the Enterprise.
BTW, wasn't Stocker a red shirt Commodore?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: [qb]The funniest part about that is that in "Descent," when Admiral Nechayev rushed out to take command of the task force that was preparing for the Borg, she chose the USS Gorkon -- a measly old Excelsior-class starship -- as her FLAGSHIP, rather than transferring her FLAG to the Enterprise, which was already the FLAGSHIP of the Federation!
Of course, again they didn't want any guest characters to upstage Jean-Luc.
That reminds me. Why do Admirals always choose rubbish ships as their flagships? The only occasion I can think of where an Admiral chooses a decent ship is the DS9 episode where it is implied that the Galaxy Class USS Venture is Admiral Hastur's flagship (although I don't think it is actually stated).
Admiral Ross had the Bellerephon as well.
As for "Admirals and Excelsiors" it seems that by that time Excelsiors were probably a dime a dozen so rather than scrapping the ships they pass a few around to some more elite or high ranking admirals as their personal transportation. From what we have seen, most admirals are restricted or seem to be limited to some sort of starbase duty so perhaps depending on the importance of the area (i.e. near the DMZ or Neutral Zone) an Admiral with a starship at his/her disposal as rugged as the Excelsior might be more of a positive than a negative. This is expecially true if their only alternative is scooting around in a runabout or shuttlecraft.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Also consider that the Enterprise was not exactly idled at a starbase at the time; Nechayev would have needed a ride to the front lines in any case. Instead of using big explorers as VIP base-to-front shuttles, it would make perfect sense for Starfleet to keep specifically configured flagships on standby at starbases. And these ships should be units not missed at the front lines, too.
So an Excelsior would make perfect sense. Large numbers of them could have been "demoted" to command ships after the last war. They'd still have the speed to reach the front, the strength to keep the flag officer safe, but also the numbers to be available everywhere, and the age to make them affordable.
As for Harriman, I trust he was a veteran officer who was simply forced into an impossible position. The whole deal with the E-B smacks of a media trick where Starfleet rides on the reputation of Kirk and the Enterprise name in order to sell an budget-bursting battleship to the taxpayers. Harriman would know his ship couldn't handle the crisis, and would have strict instructions not to put the media representatives at risk - but would also have been told not to make Starfleet or the ship look bad.
Harriman would have looked more heroic had he at first defied the first part of his orders and rushed to the rescue, then defied the second part and turned the ship away when rescue was deemed impossible. A happy end, especially for the El-Aurians...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Recall TOS "The Deadly Years" with Commodore Stocker, the "bumbling officer" who made it beyond the Captains rank without ever even commanding a starship. He really fudged things up when he took command of the Enterprise, to boot.
Perhaps Harriman managed to stay out of the way of the starship command structure and was based on a starbase his entire career up to becoming the captain of the Enterprise.
BTW, wasn't Stocker a red shirt Commodore?
Then again, TOS used the rank of Commodore incorrectly for most of its run. At least, by its true military definition. Yes, Stocker was a red-shirted Commodore. Same as the one seen in "Court Martial." I'm sure Spike can explain better than I why the red shirt was worn instead of command-mustard (or lime-green, depending if you go by screen color or actual costume color).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In a fleet in 3-dimensional space, the Flagship would need to be the most heavily protected (mabye at the center of a large spherical grouping of starships) to coordinate the fleet. It makes sense to have the toughest ships at the perimiter of the fleet while the Admiral uses a moderately powered ship as the command center as it's the least likely to engage in direct combat. Why weaken your offensive capability by making the toughest ship the Flagship?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I am no expert on battle tactics. All I know is that in modern navies, the Admiral is on the big ship (normally an Aircraft Carrier, but it depends on the fleet). I assumed Starfleet would do the same. And if I were a Starfleet Admiral, I know I would pick a decent ship for my flagship. Maybe not a Galaxy Class, which I admit probably would be more useful as a combat ship, but something like an Akira, or a Nebula perhaps, and definitely not an Excelsior. Do we know what Admiral Hanson's or Admiral Hayes' flagships were at the battles of Wolf 359 and Earth (if not from the episode, then from the scripts)?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Current USN practice derives mostly from the fact that the only real qualification for a flagship is a big room full of communications gear. And big ships tend to have big rooms.
In earlier times, there were other considerations - flagships had to compensate for slow and short-ranged communications and poor situational awareness by being nimble and fast, and often had to fight in the front lines to properly see what was going on. OTOH, lines could be held and rear-echelon ships be protected.
Starfleet lives in a different reality again. Unlike the USN, it doesn't seem to believe in securing a perimeter around a core ship - fleets butt heads by getting thoroughly intermingled. Klingons bring their flagships to the front, too, and in "Way of the Warrior" it actually made tactical sense.
As for which admiral flew which ship: Commodore Wesley had a standard-looking Constitution-of-the-line and seemed to command her personally. Hanson at Wolf 359 supposedly was aboard the Melbourne, which was either Excelsior or Nebula class (both identifications rely on barely glimpsed visuals) - but what was the dialogue on this again? Nechayev's command ship Gorkon was identified as an Excelsior only in the Encyclopedia, and might have been an early Sovereign for all we know unless somebody can come up with an Okudagram that says differently. Hayes' ship was never identified as anything but "destroyed". Was Ross really aboard the supposedly Intrepid class Bellerephon in any of the DS9 battles?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Current USN practice derives mostly from the fact that the only real qualification for a flagship is a big room full of communications gear. And big ships tend to have big rooms.
In earlier times, there were other considerations - flagships had to compensate for slow and short-ranged communications and poor situational awareness by being nimble and fast, and often had to fight in the front lines to properly see what was going on. OTOH, lines could be held and rear-echelon ships be protected.
Starfleet lives in a different reality again. Unlike the USN, it doesn't seem to believe in securing a perimeter around a core ship - fleets butt heads by getting thoroughly intermingled. Klingons bring their flagships to the front, too, and in "Way of the Warrior" it actually made tactical sense.
As for which admiral flew which ship: Commodore Wesley had a standard-looking Constitution-of-the-line and seemed to command her personally. Hanson at Wolf 359 supposedly was aboard the Melbourne, which was either Excelsior or Nebula class (both identifications rely on barely glimpsed visuals) - but what was the dialogue on this again? Nechayev's command ship Gorkon was identified as an Excelsior only in the Encyclopedia, and might have been an early Sovereign for all we know unless somebody can come up with an Okudagram that says differently. Hayes' ship was never identified as anything but "destroyed". Was Ross really aboard the supposedly Intrepid class Bellerephon in any of the DS9 battles?
We all know that Intrepids are invincible, so it would make tactical sense.
As Starfleet's policy is to throw all their ships in at once, with little or no protective formations, wouldn't it make sense for the Admiral commanding to be on a big sturdy ship? I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula, so I can sort of believe that Admirals do pick decent ships sometimes. This leads me to hope that the Prometheus shown in Endgame was the flagship and had an Admiral on it (hopefully it wasn't the useless Bonchune). Now I think of it, why was Sisko commanding a fleet of 600 in the battle to retake DS9? Was there really that much of an Admiral shortage?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm, why would the tiny Prometheus be better than the huge Nebula (aside from the former spanking the latter silly in a fight where only the former was shooting to kill)? If anything, a Prometheus would have even less amenities for fleet command than an Intrepid of comparable size, due to the multi-vector mechanism.
To grope for excuses for the �ber-silly idea of placing the desk pilot Sisko in fleet command, he might only have had a "ceremonial" command. He did very little actual commanding in the end, once the battle was joined. Much of it was of the "requesting assistance" kind that any regular captain would do. Unfortunately not all, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote: I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula, so I can sort of believe that Admirals do pick decent ships sometimes. This leads me to hope that the Prometheus shown in Endgame was the flagship and had an Admiral on it (hopefully it wasn't the useless Bonchune).[/QB]
There is also the possibility that the admiral gets to "choose their flagship" (according to Riker in AGT, and they might want to keep the same ship and command crew they had as a captain. That Kirk guy would (I'm sure) prefer the old Enterprise refit with his command crew, over the Excelsior if given the choice. In the (non-canon, I know) DS9 relaunch books Admiral Ross' flagship is the Prometheus class Cerebus (although more for speed it seems than anything else). Some admirals seem to float from srea to area troubleshooting for Starfleet Command. If the Melbourne was the Nebula then it was the Nebula variant with the two extra nacelles (mabye for added high warp duration). I believe that Sisko was acting as Fleet captain for the Bajoran sector during the war, so his leading the fight to re-take the station makes sense: nobody knew the territory or had more on the line than he did. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...Although one wonders what "territory" has to do with Trek space combat. Even insystem combat (which the battle to retake DS9 probably represents) is comparable to fighting on an open ocean, and a perfectly calm one at that. "Territory" doesn't come with any "terrain" features, not in this style of space combat.
What did Sisko know? The defensive capabilities of his station, probably. At least prior to the self-destruct routine Kira ran on them. And something about the psychological makeup of the Cardassians and the Dominion. Plus more detail on Dukat and Weyoun specifically. All of those did contribute to the eventual victory, and even to the fleet combat part - Ross or, say, Picard probably wouldn't have been able to lure out the Cardassians that way.
That still doesn't make it logical to place Sisko in a position that calls for flag-level training. But a personal advisor to Ross would have been a fitting position...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
For Sisko to be in command of that fleet, which he obviously was (he was giving orders to Captains, and even entire wings), there must have been no Admirals on any of the ships, or anywhere nearby. They talked about the "ninth fleet" I think - surely this fleet has an Admiral commanding it. Would this Admiral be happy letting Sisko command his fleet? I doubt it.
I said that I hoped the Admiral would be on the Prometheus because if the Borg attacked Earth, the Admiral commanding the defence would need to be on the ship which is least likely to be destroyed (as in any battle actually), which in this case was the Prometheus.
Incidentally, do we know it was the Prometheus? Could it have been another Promtheus Class ship, or was its registry/name visible?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I believe the registry was seen... Anyway, the Prometheus is supposed to be exceptionally fast, not exceptionally durable. Or did you mean the admiral would need a fast ship to flee, and thus survive?
Considering that nobody actually acknowledged Sisko's orders, perhaps he was just power-mad and ranting at walls?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In the book Ross had to get to some trouble spot (the Romulans I think) to mediate a conflict really fast and it was mentioned that Starfleet was running him ragged during the ("gateways" I think) crisis. Y'know, now that I think about it, it's good in many ways that the books are not canon: There's usually some galaxy threatening crossover once a year!
...at least the DS9 books are keeping it really true to the series.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Also consider that the Enterprise was not exactly idled at a starbase at the time; Nechayev would have needed a ride to the front lines in any case. Instead of using big explorers as VIP base-to-front shuttles, it would make perfect sense for Starfleet to keep specifically configured flagships on standby at starbases. And these ships should be units not missed at the front lines, too.
So an Excelsior would make perfect sense. Large numbers of them could have been "demoted" to command ships after the last war. They'd still have the speed to reach the front, the strength to keep the flag officer safe, but also the numbers to be available everywhere, and the age to make them affordable.
That certainly makes sense, to a point; the Excelsiors would be better suited in later years as rear-deployed ships. And being so common, the Admirals get plenty of freebies.
At the same time, though, I've never really seen any evidence that truly dedicated command-and-control facilities or equipment is needed to manage Starfleet's fleets -- although Sisko and the Defiant isn't exactly the best example, we also saw Admiral Hanson sitting on a normal (Battle) Bridge. Not only that, but we also know from the TNG:TM that the Galaxy class had the most advanced comm packages of the time.
And just to throw another monkey wrench into the argument, the US Navy does indeed employ two command ships even today. Don't know how much practical use they really are, though.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: I believe the registry was seen... Anyway, the Prometheus is supposed to be exceptionally fast, not exceptionally durable. Or did you mean the admiral would need a fast ship to flee, and thus survive?
I always got the impression that the Prometheus was incredibly durable. I mean it managed to repair itself on its own in MIAB (the phasers were down, now they aren't!) and survive for a rather long period of time against 3 D'Deridexes, and it had that cool "regenerative armour" or something similar.
Frankly, if the Admiral defending Earth manages to lose his fleet, and thus Earth, to the Borg, I think running away will be the last thing he needs to do. (Suicide run springs to mind.)
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: I think that the Bellerophon was just temporary, and that the Melbourne was a Nebula
The word 'USS Melbourne' is visible on the Excelsior hull in "Emissary" even on VHS tape, and I'd expect even moreso on DVD now. All evidence for the Nebula Class Melbourne comes from secondary information (BTS footage, Encyclopedia footnotes, etc.). 'USS Melbourne' was not legible in the show at all during BoBW II.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: 'USS Melbourne' was not legible in the show at all during BoBW II.
But wasn't it a Nebula Class on the screen when Shelby said "Melbourne"?
I also think it makes more sense, considering he had already been offered and turned down the Drake and the Aries, for Starfleet to try to tempt him with a big ship.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
There were so many burned out hulks floating across the monitor, that Shelby could very well have been identifying one *behind* a closer one, and instead of saying "oh, that's the Melbourne behind the Pizza Hutt..."
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: And just to throw another monkey wrench into the argument, the US Navy does indeed employ two command ships even today. Don't know how much practical use they really are, though.
Having served on the Blue Bitch for two years, I can say that Building 19 ((LCC-19), or Largest Cleaning Crew) was a floating office building for a bloated staff that did little useful, and that aside from the offices and comm facilities, the rest of us would have been more useful to the service on real ships (like my first two commands, an ammo ship and a DDG).
Better, IMO, to just give the admiral and his staff space on a carrier, which is a ship that actually does something, and has the psace to let the staff do their job with no significant drain on shipboard resources.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: [QUOTE] I don't blame him for being nervous, what with three senior Captains on his bridge...
Two senior captains. Unless Pavel had been promoted and I missed it.
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: But wasn't it a Nebula Class on the screen when Shelby said "Melbourne"?
IIRC, the camera had cut away from Shelby after she said the second ship name (which I have chickened out of trying to spell), and was either on Shelby or Riker.
Also, the ships on the viewscreen were hardly clear. Even if there was just the Nebula model, it wasn't especially easy to identify.
God, I hate this topic. But...
Did Hanson or anyone ever say that his flagship was the Melbourne? I assumed (for some reason) that he was probably still on the ship he met up with the Enterprise on. Which could have been the Melbourne. Or not.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Two senior captains. Unless Pavel had been promoted and I missed it.
Well, there was that mention by Walter that he got a couple of the reporter actors to call out for "Captain Chekov", but he was visibly seen still wearing his commander's bars, so...
Why is it, though, that Pavel never became Sulu's XO? Or that Uhura went into command? You'd think either of those would be plausible. Ah, well.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think I read something that Chekov was Sulu's original XO, but had nightmares about his last experience as XO aboard the Reliant or something.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
assembling some fandom references from the post Generations Trek has Kirk being dead, of course, Scotty disappearing, McCoy we know becomes Admiral of SF Med.
according to the authors of those Vulcans Forge books, which were decent reads, Spock briefly commanded an Intrepid (not the Excelsior-class one, one before it) with Uhura as his exec for a few special missions.. then he became an Ambassador later, and Uhura supposedly became the a higher-up of information control at Starfleet Intelligence, with the rank of Captain although she was not a starship commander..
according to our good friends Gar and Judith "Call us William S." Reeves-Stevens, Chekov became a starship commander, of the Cydonia and later the Potemkin, before becoming an admiral who would serve as commander in chief. (one reference from one of their latest William Shatner novels states that he is still in that position as of the dominion war, which i find laughable)
Sulu commanded the Excelsior for a long time, especailly with the Voyager writer's confusing and extremely frightful Captain Sulu reference
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Could've been Demora Sulu.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
the line specifically stated that the Captain Sulu in question was a 'he'.. for a while i think that people were like 'oh its his grandson' but then after a while i think it wormed into everyones heads that they wanted it to be actually him.. ill check what they did with it in the last encyclopedia..
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote: IIRC, the camera had cut away from Shelby after she said the second ship name (which I have chickened out of trying to spell), and was either on Shelby or Riker.
Also, the ships on the viewscreen were hardly clear. Even if there was just the Nebula model, it wasn't especially easy to identify.
God, I hate this topic. But...
Did Hanson or anyone ever say that his flagship was the Melbourne? I assumed (for some reason) that he was probably still on the ship he met up with the Enterprise on. Which could have been the Melbourne. Or not.
I totally agree with this. As well, I also always thought that that ship that hanson made the rendezvous with E-D was the melbourne all along. The same can be said with Nechayev in 'descent, pt1' and the Gorkon being the excelsior she arrived on (unlike some ppls belief that that was the cairo again), also thought the gorkon was again used as her ship in 'preemptive strike'.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Two senior captains. Unless Pavel had been promoted and I missed it.
Well, there was that mention by Walter that he got a couple of the reporter actors to call out for "Captain Chekov", but he was visibly seen still wearing his commander's bars, so...
Why is it, though, that Pavel never became Sulu's XO? Or that Uhura went into command? You'd think either of those would be plausible. Ah, well.
If memory serves, wasn't there also a customing problem that occured with Chekov's alleged Captain's bars? I remember that the story went that Chekov was intended to be a Captain, but the customing department only found three movie-era bars, which got used for Kirk, Scotty and Harriman.
RE: Uhura and Chekov Commands One of the Strange New Worlds stories, the name of which escapes me, had Uhura in command of the USS Hermes that was assigned to help Carol Marcus with her terraforming of Pacifica. The story also featured Gillian Taylor as a Cetacean advisor.
The excellent Orion Press fanzine actually has stories that have Chekov replace Harriman as Captain of the Enterprise-B with Saavik as his tac officer and Peter Kirk, Jim's nephew, as an assistant science officer.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Kyushu. It's one of the islands that makes up Japan.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:The excellent Orion Press fanzine actually has stories that have Chekov replace Harriman as Captain of the Enterprise-B with Saavik as his tac officer and Peter Kirk, Jim's nephew, as an assistant science officer. [/QB]
Groan.
The DS9 books have stated that a voung Ensign vaugn served on the Enterprise B under Captain Harriman during some kind of big disaster that was traumatic and a factor in vaugn's becomeing a floating tactical operative. I hope they eventually tell that entire story as it makes Harriman out to be a good captain. Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:The excellent Orion Press fanzine actually has stories that have Chekov replace Harriman as Captain of the Enterprise-B with Saavik as his tac officer and Peter Kirk, Jim's nephew, as an assistant science officer.
Groan.
The DS9 books have stated that a voung Ensign vaugn served on the Enterprise B under Captain Harriman during some kind of big disaster that was traumatic and a factor in vaugn's becomeing a floating tactical operative. I hope they eventually tell that entire story as it makes Harriman out to be a good captain. [/QB]
I believe that story will be told in one of the new Lost Era books, which focuses on the E-B and the Tomed Incident.
By and by, I don't object to Harriman. In fact, I found him to be a quite capable commanding officer in the "Captain's Daughter." I think he got a bum deal in "Generations."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Harriman's part in Captains Daughter was the best part of the book: putting Chekov in his place was cool. Any clue when the "Lost" books come out? Got a link mabye?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Thanks, man. All the books look great except the last one (that looks like sheer crap).
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Thanks. I didn't know Psiphi was up and running, again. The E-B book looks most interesting, and Harriman will have had two decades at the con of the "B." He will be a much more different, tempered man than when we saw him in "Generations."
I am intrigued by Margaret Wander Bonanno's entry in the series, only because I enjoyed her first draft of the novel that got bastardized into "The Probe."
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
PsiPhi isn't back, at least not totally. That's just a temporary book database. Dave's having some hosting troubles.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
The way I look at this thread is this: you can't always have a James T. Kirk in command of a Federation starship... it's more likely to have a Harry Kim on the bridge than a Kirk in the bedroom.
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