For a museum article I'm writing, I need a suggestion for a canon non-UFP race that could mediate negotiations between the UFP and the Klingons in 2267. Races that are Fed members in the 2370s but might not be a century earlier would be OK (Like the Trill, maybe?)
Thanks in advance.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
We know there were good relations with the Trill in those days, and they have some history with Klingons, so that might work.
Or you could involve one of the non-corporeal races like the Metrons or the Organians. They always stuck their noses in other people's business in TOS.
Or you could use one of the more obscure DS9/TNG races: Gallamites (they have transparent skulls!), Grazerites (pacifist herbivores, Jaresh Inyo) or even Betazoids.
There are also the neutral TOS era aliens, like the Edoans (from TAS) or perhaps one of the Rigelian species.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
What about Riva's people from TNG "Loud as a Whisper"? The deaf Ambassador that spoke through a chorus. Presumably they would be called Ramatans because their planet is Ramatas III. They weren't Federation members but he was called on as a Ambassador for the Federation.
I agree that the Trills would be a good choice also. Both Ambassador Odan and Curzan Dax were Trill Ambassadors to the UFP before Trill joined the Federation (Do we have canon data saying that Trill joined? I would assume they did but I don't remember anything being mentioned). Although Odan represents some problems because of the fact that he's different from the other Trills shown later.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I believe it's been stated that Trill is a Federation planet. Jadzia attended the Academy, which doesn't in and of itself mean that Trill is a Federation world, but we've also seen other Trill in Starfleet and I think Argen (SP?) talked about going to the Acandemy as if it would take no special work.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
How about the Barolians? According to "Star Charts," they're located along the UFP/Klingon border, and might be a convenient party...
Of course, for the 23rd-century Klingons, "neutral" just might mean "friendless target." (Meaning that the Klingons might've been aiming to conquer the Barolians along with the surrounding Federation territory.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I agree that the Trill are prime candidates for this role. The fact that they will later participate in the Khitomer (sp?) summit sets a strong precedent.
P.S. I really like this new Quick Reply box! Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Thanks all. The Trill may be it.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
There's no reason to think that the Trill (DS9 Trill, that is) are recent UFP members. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the Trill membership came during the original series era, or even earlier. (Unless I'm missing some subtle clue somewhere, but I don't think I am.)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think the main problem is that when Odan showed up, the general reaction was "Trill? What's that? Oh, I think I read about them once.".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Duly noted. But, really, Odan scarcely counts as a Trill as we've come to know them. He shares the name, is all. Perhaps Odan's species communicates through something like musical scales, and rather than trying to reproduce the name of the species they just sort of gave a generic description of the sound. YES. PLAUSIBLE.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What about the Corvallens? The ones that got blown up in Romulan space in "Face of the Enemy"?
one would assume that there was a tholian observer at the khitomer conferences.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
From the Dax symbiont, we know that Trills visited both Earth in the 2240s and Vulcan even before that. Emony Dax was even judging a gymnastics competition when she met a young McCoy. So they weren't just visiting, but active members of society. That could mean Trill was already a member in the early 23rd century. Or the Trill just liked to mingle with other species to explore new ideas and have new experiences, without ever really explaining their origins.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Were the Medusans members of the Federation?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
According to the Encyclopedia, Riva, of Ramatis, negotiated several treaties between the Federation and the Klingons, but they also say he is a Federation negotiator. If Ramatis is a member of the Federation, how can the ruling family be considered impartial in Fed-klingon negotiations?
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
I assume you're addressing me since I was the only one to mention Riva. He was a Federation Ambassador because of his legendary reputation (though for some reason no one aboard Enterprise knew he was deaf - nice research there by the crew), but the Ramatans were not Federation members in the episode unless I'm mistaken.
I was thinking of another possibility, Krios. Maybe they were picked as a nuetral border planet between the Federation and Klingons. Later, the Klingons conquered them. There has been two mentions of Kriosians in TNG, but no proof whether their related or not.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Just rewatched parts of the episode. Picard actually says "greetings from the United Federation of Planets". So Ramatis is not member of the UFP. Guess I have to remove it from my list then
But it would mean that Therin, the Star Charts and the Magazine were all wrong.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
So, Rivas belongs to the ruling family of a non-Federation planet but is a Federation negotiator? Do they just sort of bring him in when he is needed? Harry, what did it say about his work regarding Fed-Klingon Treaties?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The Star Charts support many UFP memberships that I don't really believe in. The Klaestron, for example...
Ramatis certainly shouldn't be a UFP member in the 2360s. It is also somewhat questionable whether Trill should. "Actively participating in the UFP society" doesn't sound like a sufficient criterion when we hear of actively participating Klingons as well.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Harry, can you confirm the encyclopedia entry that Riva helped negotiate Klingon-Fed treaties? My only source is the on-line script (from the "Publishing old scripts thread), which can't be trusted. (I thought that Riva's chorus got killed in the episode. The script has a translation device being damaged.) Riker also says (stupidly, as usual): "You mean, the most respected negotiator in the Federation -- is deaf? Amazing."
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: So Ramatis is not member of the UFP. Guess I have to remove it from my list then
But it would mean that Therin, the Star Charts and the Magazine were all wrong.
Well, Star Charts does take into account everything that happened up to Nemesis, so it's possible they may have joined after "Loud as a Whisper".
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Can you confirm the encyclopedia entry that Riva helped negotiate Klingon-Fed treaties?
Not from the Encyclopedia but it was also mentioned in Voyager "Alliances" that the Klingon Empire allied itself with the Federation after negotiations between Ambassadors Riva, Sarek, and Kobry (presumably the Klingon delegate) after the treaty was proposed by Ambassador Spock.
The websites I checked listed 2339, 2346, and indeterminate as the time that this treaty occurred. 2346 makes more sense then 2339 because it comes after the Enterprise-C was destroyed which made the Klingons admire the Federation and consider an alliance.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
A few quotes regarding Riva:
Picard: "The two sides of a bitter planetary conflict have petitioned Starfleet to transport to their world a mediator they have mutually selected. Our orders are transportation only -- no interference."
Picard: "They wanted the best. That, according to all reports, is Riva"
Riker: "Our job is not to police the galaxy" ('Our' being Starfleet's)
Next follows a rather awkard scene in which Troi insists Worf is feeling uncomfortable. So much for privacy.. Anyway:
Picard: "Rive negotiated several treaties between the Klingons and the Federation"
Worf: "Before him, there was no Klingon word for 'peacemaker'"
And, of course, by Picard: "Greetings from the United Federation of Planets"
Riva to Troi: "You are empathic?" (Not familiar with Betazoids?)
However, Riva knows about Earth's house of Hannover... But the crew know absolutely nothing about Ramatis and Riva.
Perhaps interesting to know too is that Riva was asked to mediate a 15 centuries long planetary war between two Solari factions (of Solais V).
You could of course have Klingon-Federation treaties being negotiated by both Riva and Trill negotiators.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Considering how difficult it's been to keep certain peace processes going even WITH outside mediators (*COUGH*israel*COUGH*palestine*COUGH*), the idea of Riva and the Trill (as non-members) mediating the Khitomer Accords does seem like a tempting idea.
However, I just remembered a scene from DS9's "Blood Oath" -- Jadzia recounted how Curzon and Kang were the two chief negotiators at the Korvat Colony, a few years before Khitomer. (It's placed around 2289 in the Chronology.) Kang was making a long-winded speech about the glory of the Empire or something like that, and Curzon walked out on him.
I find it extremely unlikely that the neutral mediator would have walked out of such negotiations. Therefore, the Trill must be ruled out, and are almost definitely already Federation members by this point.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Harry, can you confirm the encyclopedia entry that Riva helped negotiate Klingon-Fed treaties? My only source is the on-line script (from the "Publishing old scripts thread), which can't be trusted. (I thought that Riva's chorus got killed in the episode. The script has a translation device being damaged.) Riker also says (stupidly, as usual): "You mean, the most respected negotiator in the Federation -- is deaf? Amazing."
That line is also in the Companion CDROM script, was it in the actual episode, or was the line later dropped?
quote:I find it extremely unlikely that the neutral mediator would have walked out of such negotiations. Therefore, the Trill must be ruled out, and are almost definitely already Federation members by this point.
I don't know Curzon was something of a rogue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he'd use that tactic, even if he were supposedly a neutral mediator.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Negotiating with Klingons is probably a lot less 'talky' than negotiating with humans. I can only guess at the number of Klingon Ambassadors and aides being killed at such negotiations
Walking out of a Klingon's long winded speech could be very helpful in showing how couragous you are by defying some high-ranking Klingon bureacrat. Or it could get you killed in a rather nasty way.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Bit Kris, that's my point... the way Dax and Kang described the situation, the whole meeting was basically between the two of them as the two primary negotiators.
Therefore, the Trill weren't neutral at the time of Khitomer, but Federation members.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(Meaning that the Klingons might've been aiming to conquer the Barolians along with the surrounding Federation territory.