I just ran across a picture from ST2 when the Reliant is firing on the E. I just notice we see the top of the connector neck, but NO SAUCER! Did this make it to film that way? I don't have a copy of the film to check, but is the saucer MISSING in the shot of the phaser hit on the port photon launcher? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
OMG! no..
So as to not waste anyone elses time with this:
It's a [tight] zoom, but it still can be seen -
And even more obvious -
Next time bring a little more evidence to the table, Big Guy, before you go wetting yourself with excitement over nothing.
Or at least do a little 'at home' research first. Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
This is the image I was talking about.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Looks to me like a completely different effects shot, either re-done on a model which didn't have a saucer. . . or it's been cropped for some reason. The one without any saucer might have been a test shot or something.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
For the movie they closed in far enough that you couldn't tell. They actually built a large wax version of the upper secondary hull from the front of the neck to where the pylon starts, specifically for that shot. There was no saucer, and in fact in some behind the scene photos you can even see that only the upper half of the deflector dish is there with nothing below it. Several magazines, etc have pictures of this, but I do believe they have several pics from this shot on the TWOK:SE DVD.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Oddly enough, while the TWOK missing saucer is bogus, there ARE some funny glitches with the Enterprise in the movies. Notable, if you watch Trek III, when the bridge explodes, notice the superstructure is sitting on a flat surface that isn't remotely shaped like the saucer.
I also seem to recall --albeit I could be mistaken -- that when the Enterprise fires the photorps at the Bird of Prey, the causer seen above doesn't "fit" right on the neck. I suspect the neck is the same one used in TWOK and they matted a saucer in above it.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
See below.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Better yet...
Here's the closest [cappable] frame to the one in question. It appears the most noticable flaws in this possible recreation(most likely?) is the missing nacelle (which was visible in all shots of 'the hit' up to the zoom) and both the phaser hit and the shot of the picture in itself, are at the wrong angle.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Has anyone asked before why precisely Khan disabled port torpedo launcher? It's not like it was required in any way to disable Enterprise...
(and, incidentally, this scene proves that even with direct hit to photon torpedo launcher the ship won't blow up )
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Well, a bunch of genetic supermen who'd been living on a shithole planet for 20 years and have suddenly found themselves in possession of state-of-the-art space weaponry despite never having fought a space engagement before would probably just aim as close to the centre of the target as possible and hope for the best. . .
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Maybe he read that there was a torpedo being loaded in there based on the initiative of the officier in charge that Kirk didn't know about?
(grasping at straws)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Actually I think that was at the point where the two ships nearly collided and they were pulling a 'roll and shoot' maneuver where very little aim or precision was actually involved. Khan just got off a lucky shot.
I'm actually more intrigued with the 'type' of phasers the ships were armed with. Not really 'phaser-beams' but more like 'phaser-arrows'.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Or, Khan targeted the torpedo bay so that in the event he wasn't successful in destroying Enterprise on the first pass, he would have at least severely impaired Enterprise's ability to fight back.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh ... is that bottom left image a mirror-flip of the E's approach to Spacedock in Star Trek III? Was the moon always there?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Oh ... is that bottom left image a mirror-flip of the E's approach to Spacedock in Star Trek III? Was the moon always there?
Publicity photo. Doesn't actually appear int he film.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
This is a pic from an unrelated Refit Enterprise topic on StarshipModeler.com but it shows the wax secondary hull mock-up for the damaged scene:
The argument that Kahn was just roughly aiming jibes slightly with Spock pointing to the damage chart and saying:
"They knew exactly where to hit us."
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
Agreed. Khan new the Old connies very well. He also had a few of the Reliant's crew being "coerced" by his pets. They would have known the vulnerabilities of the Enterprise and I'm sure Khan didn't pass on the opportunity to "Know His Enemy" before he engaged him.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: The argument that Kahn was just roughly aiming jibes slightly with Spock pointing to the damage chart and saying:
"They knew exactly where to hit us."
Well he did for the initial "one big happy fleet" attack. But the phaser hits in question to the photon tubes were lucky shots in the Nebula. They were pretty much blind afterall.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Well he did for the initial "one big happy fleet" attack. But the phaser hits in question to the photon tubes were lucky shots in the Nebula. They were pretty much blind afterall.
Or maybe they were aiming for the engine room again but shot too high, since they blasted an area just two decks above it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
They might have been trying to nail the antimatter tube thingie in the neck powering the impulse engines.
In the initial attack, I'm sure the Reliant's computers had at least MSD style plans of the Connie Refit....after all, the Enterprise sure had tyhe scoop on Reliant.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Remember too that only one of Reliant's phasers actually struck, you can see the other beam shoot out into the nebula under the saucer. It was a blind-sided lucky strike with one bank.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: Remember too that only one of Reliant's phasers actually struck, you can see the other beam shoot out into the nebula under the saucer. It was a blind-sided lucky strike with one bank.
Thank you Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well the other phaser would've hit the nacelle if the VFX department had bothered to include it in the shot! Those lousy VFX guys were fixing the fight from the start...
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well the other phaser would've hit the nacelle if the VFX department had bothered to include it in the shot! Those lousy VFX guys were fixing the fight from the start...
did they actually hit? i seem to recall some of the hit points in ST3 having some scorring on the nassels...
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
opps, double clicking is a crime here, right? Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well the other phaser would've hit the nacelle if the VFX department had bothered to include it in the shot! Those lousy VFX guys were fixing the fight from the start...
did they actually hit? i seem to recall some of the hit points in ST3 having some scorring on the nacelles...
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
No the shot wouldn't have hit the nacelle. Of the two phaser streams that were incoming, the one from Reliant's port cannon missed wide, fore of the dorsal, and the one from the starboard cannon tracked along the torpedo bay. The only way the shot that missed would have hit the nacelle would have been if said nacelle was almost on a level with the torpedo deck and brought forward under the saucer.
And no, the Enterprise took no external damage to her nacelles.
--Jonah
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Maybe to explain the scorings, Spocks modifications to the engine burnt them out?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I remember arguing about this on alt.startrek.vs.starwars years ago . . . someone was using that publicity shot to support some claim or other, and there was a flamewar when I pointed out that the pic wasn't from the movie and refused to back down from that stance.
Ahh, the good ole days. (twitch)
In any case, the version on film managed to avoid showing the nature of the model. In Star Trek III, however, there is indeed a badly composited shot wherein it's painfully obvious that something went awry, as noted earlier in the thread. Check the widescreen version, and you'll see the torpedo firing shot wherein the connecting dorsal has to be connecting to the saucer somewhere just port and aft of the lower sensor dome.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Star Trek III always annoyed me because suddenly the Enterprise exhibits over twice as much battle damage as it did at the end of TWOK. Does Scotty's multiplication of damage estimates including faking battle damage? Ugh.
Actually the more I think about Trek III the more I hate it...
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Actually this TSFS damage is kinda consistent with damage diagram from TWOK... but yeah, the visible external damage somehow expanded.
Perhaps Kirk met some trouble on his way home?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Perhaps the hull coating deteriorated, or some nasty stuff from a ruptured conduit reacted with the hull.
I've just watched STIII for the first time in a few years, and it's not as bad as I had remembered it. Except that they should've just forgotten about Saavik. She played a terrible Vulcan.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Yeah, why didn't they get Kirstie Alley back again?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Because she was both psycho and wanted too much money.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Because she was both psycho and wanted too much money.
I've heard her agent asked for too much money, but I've never heard her described as "psycho". Given Saavik's crap part in ST3, she was probably better off staying away.
Psycho, now I'd like to know what you base that on.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Rumors have circulated for years that Kirstie Alley hated her role and that the TOS cast was less than thrilled she was there. Not that you see any interviews with her on her reasons...it could just be rumor, but who turns down a movie deal that early in a career?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Rumors have circulated for years that Kirstie Alley hated her role and that the TOS cast was less than thrilled she was there. Not that you see any interviews with her on her reasons...it could just be rumor, but who turns down a movie deal that early in a career?
Maybe. But according to rumor Leonard Nimoy wouldn't do Trek 2 unless they killed his character (he says that's untrue), and that Gene Roddenberry had to fight to have a multi-ethnic cast (when NBC memos of the time encourage it), and on and on. So you'll pardon me for being dubious of such rumors being flung around as fact.
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
Back to the subject of that pic...
As Guardian 2000 and others said... It's not from the movie.
What it really is... is an animation test. Back then they did things the hard way and had to have 'proofs' of concept as they went from shot to shot. Most likely that was a locked shot. Where they took the still and did the test of how the phaser would move across the PhoTorp housing before tackling a moving (more complex) shot. It's not a 'bogus' image in the sense that someone doctored it. It's real.... just not IN the movie.
Another example of these kinds of tests would be the First Contact teaser where they substituted the Enterprise attacking the Borg Cube with the Voyager model while Ent-E was being built.
Posted by Moonraker (Member # 1245) on :
as you can see here, the first shot from the movie is of the whole model. you can see where reliant missed on one side. the second, of the more detailed large torp bay model... this was more than likely a lucky hit, since the ships were trying not to ram each other. the enterprise returned fire and hit the aft bridge section of the reliant.
the one on the bottom... ick, the shot from st3. case closed.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
These are fantastic screenshots by the way!
How did you get that great quality?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Screencaps from the DVD, likely.
Posted by Moonraker (Member # 1245) on :
yes straight off the dvds.
something else to note here is that the bottom shot has no windows or airlock... theres no detail on that side!
man they were really thinking about that shot.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fucked up!
It's kinda big thing to not have the docking port on there.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
That's because it was the same model as the partial build used for the airlock damage from "Khan". That model wasn't intended to be seen from the other side, but they needed the torpedo launch closeup in TRek III. (I'm actually surprised that side had been painted at all!)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Why'd they bother detailing the rest of the interconnecting dorsal and if they were going to leave the torpedo launcher undetailed?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
The details may not have been there as part of the original model, but when they decided to film that side, they went ahead and painted the appropriate areas leaving the physical detail (airlock) off?
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